18 replies to this topic

[Mizore]

LRMs and ECM always had big balancing problems.
So, what to do?


THE PROBLEM:

ECM is super strong.
Yes, there are some counters to it, but they are not very easy to use, they need good teamwork and in the actual meta (AC-PPC-snipers), it's just too risky to use them.
There are just too much advantages for a 1,5t piece of equipment... even PGI said, that ECM is overpowered, when they released it.

LRMs have to be heavily boated to be somewhat usefull in most situations.
Sometimes, LRMs can be very strong (against slow mechs in open terrain) but usually they are weak and very difficult to use, because they are only usefull against slow targets and because there are so many counters to them.
Especially experienced players have no problem at all to "evade" LRMs.
The worst case is, when there are several ECMs on the opposing team, then you only get a lock very rarely and do close to no damage.


THE SOLUTION:

ECM-changes:
- Get rid of the stealth effect for every mech under the ECM umbrella. Only the mech itself that mounts ECM should gain advantage of the stealth effect. TAG and NARC should make the ECM-mech visible to everyone.
- It should take longer to gain lock on a target, that is under an ECM umbrella.
Maybe 1.5 times longer than without ECM.
- You should still be able to target an enemy mech that got NARCed but is under the ECM umbrella, however the bonuses of NARC should be negated when under the umbrella.
- When shooting LRMs at targets under the ECM umbrella, the spread of missiles should be 50% wider. (Also when indirect firing at targets with LRMs... 50% wider spread. ECM + indirect fire = 75% more spread)
- Streaks under enemy ECM umbrella should behave like ordinary SRMs.

LRM-changes:
- Increase flight speed and range of LRMs (in comparrison to other weapons, 1000m is not long range any more. Maybe 1200m is good.)
- When shooting LRMs at targets indirectly, the spread of missiles should be 50% wider. (Also when firing at targets with LRMs that are under ECM umbrella... 50% wider spread. ECM + indirect fire = 75% more spread)
- Make them a little bit more precise so that they can also hit faster targets slightly better.
- Buff the damage a little bit.





So, I guess these changes would help to make LRMs more usefull but not overpowered and also make ECM less game breaking.
The numbers in this suggestion are only for the purpose of explaining the idea.
Of course they can be tweaked up or down.

What is your opinion to my suggestions?

Edited by Mizore, 12 February 2014 - 12:15 PM.

[DocBach]

ECM's needed to have its mechanics changed since it was introduced

[Mizore]

I totally agree on that.

[Prezimonto]

While I agree in general.... just wait for the incoming, posts about how this has been posted before... I could even point virtual fingers at the likely folks.

After them usually comes the "LRMs" are balanced crowd, followed by ECM isn't OP crowd.

Can we skip all of the obvious trolly responses and focus on whether this idea would actually BREAK ECM? Or if it would push LRM boats into too dominant a position?

As for a direct response, I think it's unlikely that we'll get a return to TT ECM-TAG-NARC given the hard reverse this game has taken on the topic. I'll add that I don't think the higher spread is enough benefit to counter LRM boats vs. small weapons.

[SI The Joker]

Tagged/NARCed mech stays tagged for 30 seconds or until you tag another mech. If under ECM, that mech loses its ECM for the duration.

There ya go.

Problem is not that LRMs are weak. If you buff them, folks who boat them will boat them more and that's even worse than it is now. The problem is that when you tag someone under ECM coverage, the tag does not last long enough for a single salvo of LRM to reach from 500 meters let alone 800 or more. (My opinion, of course)

Edited by SI The Joker, 12 February 2014 - 09:39 AM.

[Prezimonto]

IF the NARC EMP effect actually knocks out the ECM bubble (not just the tagged mech) then I'm fine with ECM in the game as there's a direct tool to really, actually, counter it's main effect.

But I doubt that'll happen, NARC will be TAG's big brother, which will make it good, but still not an honest hard counter.

[Kaeb Odellas]

LRMs are too slow. They just take too long to reach their targets, requiring more face-time for the launcher or his spotter, giving the target plenty of time to get to cover, and making them almost completely useless against lights. Make them faster and nerf them in some other way.

[Trauglodyte]

Mizore, on 12 February 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:

LRMs and ECM always had big balancing problems.
So, what to do?


THE PROBLEM:

ECM is super strong.
Yes, there are some counters to it, but they are not very easy to use, they need good teamwork and in the actual meta (AC-PPC-snipers), it's just too risky to use them.
There are just too much advantages for a 1,5t piece of equipment... even PGI said, that ECM is overpowered, when they released it.

LRMs have to be heavily boated to be somewhat usefull in most situations. wrong
Sometimes, LRMs can be very strong (against slow mechs in open terrain) but usually they are weak and very difficult to use, because they are only usefull against slow targets and because there are so many counters to them. wrong
Especially experienced players have no problem at all to "evade" LRMs. correct
The worst case is, when there are several ECMs on the opposing team, then you only get a lock very rarely and do close to no damage.


THE SOLUTION:

ECM-changes:
- Get rid of the stealth effect for every mech under the ECM umbrella. Only the mech itself that mounts ECM should gain advantage of the stealth effect. TAG and NARC should make the ECM-mech visible to everyone.
- It should take longer to gain lock on a target, that is under an ECM umbrella.
Maybe 1.5 times longer than without ECM.
- You should still be able to target an enemy mech that got NARCed but is under the ECM umbrella, however the bonuses of NARC should be negated when under the umbrella.
- When shooting LRMs at targets under the ECM umbrella, the spread of missiles should be 50% wider. (Also when indirect firing at targets with LRMs... 50% wider spread. ECM + indirect fire = 75% more spread)
- Streaks under enemy ECM umbrella should behave like ordinary SRMs.

LRM-changes:
- Increase flight speed and range of LRMs (in comparrison to other weapons, 1000m is not long range any more. Maybe 1200m is good.)
- When shooting LRMs at targets indirectly, the spread of missiles should be 50% wider. (Also when firing at targets with LRMs that are under ECM umbrella... 50% wider spread. ECM + indirect fire = 75% more spread)
- Make them a little bit more precise so that they can also hit faster targets slightly better.

What is your opinion to my suggestions?

The "stealth" effect is there to show that you can't pick it up on sensors due to them being blocked - it's fine
If you don't have sensor information you can't lock - it's fine
The NARC change is coming in the next or after next patch - incoming soon
You can fire LRMs as dumbfire but adding spread when you don't have a lock just makes it worse - unnecessary
Streaks are designed not to fire without a lock - unnecessary

LRM speed is getting looked at - incoming
Again, why nerf indirect fire when it is hardly effective anyway? - unnecessary
This does need to be looked at due to the fact that mechs traveling over 100kph get hit in the legs - needed

Here is the truth about LRMs: They're very hard to use, extremely unforgiving, and are typically used by people that have no idea what they're doing. The LRM system is as direct fire a weapon as anything else and yet people blindly flail away with them at max range and/or in situations where they're guaranteed to not land. On top of that, people are fine upgrading their mechs with Endosteel, FerroFibrous armor, XL engines, and tier 2 tech weapons but refuse to upgrade their LRM launchers with the same tech (ie, Artemis, TAG, and NARC). Then they come to the boards and complain about how unsusable LRMs are and how they need to be fixed.

The NARC is getting fixed and will help. But, people need to pull their collective heads out of their butts and learn to use LRMs properly. What is the point of slapping on Artemis on your mech if you're going to predominantly fire indirectly? Look at your weapons stats page. When you only hit 30% of the time, you're doing it way wrong (AMS and terrain, not withstanding). If ECM is an issue, take TAG on your build or ask a lance mate to carry it for you. But, realize that, while LRMs have a range of 1000m, they're really only useful up to around 600m due to flight speed.

Now, all of that being said, I'm fine with the interaction of ECM and LRMs/Streaks. BUT, when you have a target in the open, the flight path of the LRM needs to be flat. I've mentioned it more than a few times but all PGI needs to do is give every launcher the Artemis code. Artemis tightens the spread when the target is in line of sight. If they apply the LOS code, they could change the flight angle to be extremely flat turning them into long ranged SRMs. This along with a slight speed increase would make them extremely potent in open range engagements while, like the Gauss Rifle, giving players a thinking effect to its use. You'd stil keep the massive arc when firing indirectly but they'd be better for normal engagements.

[Khobai]

DocBach, on 12 February 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

ECM's needed to have its mechanics changed since it was introduced

Like Ghost ECM? The more ECMs you have on your team the weaker they get.

[Sinthrow]

Ghost ECM that is just funny
nice one

[Chagatay]

ECM is a complete garbage mechanic in its present form. I know, I know....pack BAP and tag etc. I do all that and still get plenty of games in puglandia where I get 2 wee ones pecking away at me that both have that "I win" package and I can't do anything with my streaks (Kintaro-18/19) but stand there and die. The least they could do is make it not stack (BAP countering all ECM in the area)!
Why should this OP thing stack?

If you say, well it isn't OP as you say. Oh really, tell me one situation that you WOULDN'T take ECM on an ECM capable mech? Better yet, they could just open it up to all mechs....if you think we had QQ before ho ho ho.....

Edited by Chagatay, 12 February 2014 - 01:37 PM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Mizore, on 12 February 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:

LRMs and ECM always had big balancing problems.

LRMs have to be heavily boated to be somewhat usefull in most situations.

Except...they don't...they work best at around 30 as a support weapon on a mech that has other weapons and an engine big enough to position quickly enough to use LRM's effectively.

[Mizore]

Well, usually I'm riding a Catapult-C1 with 2x 15-ALRMs and 4x MedLaser and I think that's a nice loadout.
But often I just have the feeling that I can't do anything usefull with my LRMs, because they feel so incredibliy weak.
And when it takes about 1 minute of constant fire with LOS on a running Jagermech to only get rid of his armour... then there's something wrong with LRMs.

Edited by Mizore, 12 February 2014 - 01:58 PM.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Prezimonto, on 12 February 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

While I agree in general.... just wait for the incoming, posts about how this has been posted before... I could even point virtual fingers at the likely folks.

After them usually comes the "LRMs" are balanced crowd, followed by ECM isn't OP crowd.

Can we skip all of the obvious trolly responses and focus on whether this idea would actually BREAK ECM? Or if it would push LRM boats into too dominant a position?

As for a direct response, I think it's unlikely that we'll get a return to TT ECM-TAG-NARC given the hard reverse this game has taken on the topic. I'll add that I don't think the higher spread is enough benefit to counter LRM boats vs. small weapons.

So if someone disagrees with your premise, then they are automatically trolls?

Yea what a totally logical, mature statement.

**edit**
PS: 3 threads down...a topic on LRM flooding being the new FotM.....so they are so weak, they are OP??

Edited by Nick Makiaveli, 12 February 2014 - 03:33 PM.

[Fate 6]

I complained about ECM since the second they announced it and haven't stopped since. It does too much for basically no drawback. It weighs the same as an AMS and does 20x more for you and your team.

What people also leave out in this discussions is the power of AMS. A lone AMS isn't a huge deal, but when 6 people with AMS stand near each other a lone LRM boat takes a massive hit to their damage. THAT is why you HAVE to boat LRMs, because if you run a single LRM10 or something, like so many stock mechs have, you have a decent chance of doing literally no damage with it even if the enemy team has 0 ECM. AMS should either be chassis specific or it should get its mech stacking mechanics changed (only hits missiles targeting you or huge range nerf with a slight damage buff to compensate)

Edited by Fate 6, 12 February 2014 - 03:40 PM.

[Fate 6]

Chagatay, on 12 February 2014 - 01:33 PM, said:

If you say, well it isn't OP as you say. Oh really, tell me one situation that you WOULDN'T take ECM on an ECM capable mech? Better yet, they could just open it up to all mechs....if you think we had QQ before ho ho ho.....

That isn't the only argument for that, either. It's even more important to note that there's basically no reason to take a different variant of a mech which has a chassis that is ECM-enabled. The ECM variants are the best of their mech chassis because they have ECM.

[Richard Warts]

@ Trauglodyte

Couldn't agree more, the only thing I'd add to that is the issue of ECM stacking. If you have BAP, that should be it - you should be able to target whomever provided they're in range.

[Prezimonto]

Nick Makiaveli, on 12 February 2014 - 03:32 PM, said:

So if someone disagrees with your premise, then they are automatically trolls?

Yea what a totally logical, mature statement.

**edit**
PS: 3 threads down...a topic on LRM flooding being the new FotM.....so they are so weak, they are OP??

The answer is no, not automatically, but quite a few people around here do troll threads like this very hard rather than adding to them in a constructive manner.

In a different thread I put this up:

Quote

The issue is that different weapons are more or less powerful to players in various range bands/skill levels/solo vs. team.

LRM's are useful with support and boats (50+missiles per mech)
... but fairly terrible in small numbers (which is all most mechs can carry)
This makes them quite good in pugs when you drop with a couple of friends who can work together

They're still not quite as good as direct fired weapons... though and fairly easily defeated against coordinated players.

AC/Laser is good vs average skill players, mostly because those players aren't really accomplished with poptart mechanics (which take a modicum of skill to pull off well now that you have a short firing window to aim). This is because relative to PPC's lasers are low heat/ammo less weapons that provide a good backup to AC's to deal consistent damage. Average players have a good idea how to close with the enemy without taking too much damage if the enemy doesn't consist of 3 or 4 poptarts.

AC/PPC builds still dominate with really good players because risk/reward ratio is very good, and the skill ceiling on this is just high enough that not everyone can pull it off anymore.

So to me the issue is two fold:
1st) It's entirely possible that all these problem actually exist for different players, which largely means we're screwed as balancing this is exceptionally difficult.

2nd) the matching system as much as anything else is to blame. Because players are matched ±1400 elo (50% of the range) they're seeing how players in different skill bands play and get dominated a lot more often. You're also matched against a fairly wide selection of people because the MM matches to a team average elo (with a largish variance per player).

I've been thinking for a while that they should rank players into bands or tiers, tell the player what area they're in, and limit matchs to two bands or tiers when match making. Make 5 or 6 bands across the distribution that chunks up the elo scores. This would give players a sense of progression in "ranking up" and gives a decent reason to stuff brand new players into a low range band, rather than the middle. It gives the players some bragging rights without having a ton of information, and if you display the player's tier or ranking on the game board, you get an instant sense of how the match may progress and/or who to look to for advice... without have specific elo values to scam or game the system easily.

Essentially, I think all weapons are in varying states of balance based on user skill levels. LRM's happen to be in a fairly narrow range... small groups in pugs with LRM boats and support is actually very good. LRM5 boats are good in mid to lower level play where there aren't several AMS per team and people string out more. The thing is, unlike AC's and lasers individual LRM systems are even close to effective without a team comp that's working very tightly together.

These issues plague balance of nearly all the weapons in the game because we can't consider LRM's vs. AC's one vs. one alone. We have to consider how the systems are used in practice (singles/duos/boats) and at differing skill levels.

So a thread like this has great potential, if it's allowed to be understood through the point of view of those whom it effects.

Critiques of the idea shouldn't just say LRM's are fine and leave it at that, because it's not really universally true. Good critique will attempt to figure out not just if these changes will balance the actual problem, but then also extrapolate how they will affect other players at other skill levels. If the net gain isn't good, the idea should be changed.

Long winded way of saying: instead of trolling and universal statements lets apply the scientific method and logic to critiques.

[Noesis]

@OP, Wow!, this isn't a million miles away from the suggestions already made by Paul himself in the suggested balance tweaks/tuning recently. You must be able to read game designers minds or something.

The only comparative change you mention that isnt being considered then is the advantage ECM gives to other Mechs with stealth without the use of stealth armour and individual ECM as per TT to be able get these effects.