11 replies to this topic

[shellashock]

Here is a possible way to make streaks be able to be used in any amount.
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*IMPORTANT!*
All of these values are experimental. These charts for damage spread will be locked to the amount of launchers mounted.
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----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Terminology:

CT: Center Torso

RT/LT: Right/Left Torso

RA/LA: Right/Left Arm

RL/LL: Right/Left Leg
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Possible Damage Spread Chart by Shellashock

Spoiler

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| # of Streaks | CT % chance of hit | RT/LT % chance of hit | RA/LA % chance of hit | RL/LL % chance of hit |
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|--------1-------|-----------80%---------||-------------10%-----------||-------------N/A------------|-------------N/A------------|
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|--------2-------|-----------70%---------||-------------15%-----------||-------------N/A------------|-------------N/A------------|
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|--------3-------|-----------60%---------||-------------15%-----------||--------------5%------------|-------------N/A------------|
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|--------4-------|-----------50%---------||-------------15%-----------||-------------10%-----------||-------------N/A------------|
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|--------5-------|-----------40%---------||-------------15%-----------||-------------10%-----------||-------------|5%------------||
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|--------6-------|-----------30%---------||-------------15%-----------||-------------10%-----------||-------------10%-----------||
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Possible Damage Spread Chart by Levi

Spoiler

Damage Spread for 1 Launcher
CT: 50%
RT: 11%
LT: 11%
RA: 7%
LA: 7%
RL: 7%
LL: 7%

Damage Spread for 4 Launchers
CT: 16%
RT: 14%
LT: 14%
RA: 14%
LA: 14%
RL: 14%
LL: 14%

There should be a trend in between 1 launcher and 4 launchers for damage to spread more equally across the mech as amount of launchers goes up. After 4 launchers, ghost heat becomes the balancing factor as it is right now, not damage spread.

As a bonus, this idea could make it worthwhile to take a streak in a 1 missile hard point mech (Jenner K, etc.)

Please let me know what you think and if this is feasible. Any reasonable changes or error fixes are welcome.


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Edited by shellashock, 22 February 2014 - 09:25 AM.

[Belorion]

Can you try laying out the data again? That makes no sense.

[Moromillas]

I'm pretty sure they fixed and fine tuned the damage spread, ghost heat is how alpha is being balanced.

[shellashock]

Moromillas, on 12 February 2014 - 10:32 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure they fixed and fine tuned the damage spread, ghost heat is how alpha is being balanced.

This thread was made in the attempt to present an idea that could make it useful to have any number of streaks instead of boating streaks being king. Because of the potential situation of streak boats just chainfiring to get similar results to the days of always ct streaks, I am currently unsure whether to lock this to the amount of streaks you fire at once or the amount of streaks you are carrying period. There are merits to both, so I encourage discussion on what is better.

[Moromillas]

shellashock, on 13 February 2014 - 05:54 AM, said:

This thread was made in the attempt to present an idea that could make it useful to have any number of streaks instead of boating streaks being king. Because of the potential situation of streak boats just chainfiring to get similar results to the days of always ct streaks, I am currently unsure whether to lock this to the amount of streaks you fire at once or the amount of streaks you are carrying period. There are merits to both, so I encourage discussion on what is better.

I can't see this being king with streaks you're talking about, they have their uses, like hitting fast lights, yet they certainly don't lord over all else.

I seem to remember in an NGNG that Russ, or one of the developers were talking about their stance on hit mechanics, and random mechanics.

It was said that if you were to aim directly at a Mech, in a way that would hit the Mech, it is very frustrating when you fire and nothing happens. I tend to agree with that, I've not see a mwo build of this, but not just random chance to miss mechanics, but other things where you can experience just how frustrating that is.

I hear that randoms were a good mechanic on the tabletop, but the video game needs to be fun. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Developers have also mentioned they don't like the randomness of the ultra ac's, I've tried them, and yeah, jam after you fire once is not fun at all. Not just that, but the random nature of the weapon in general.

Damage spread for streaks is actually pretty good now. That's one of the many reasons I took a break, the balance, having something OP, and putting a hotfix on to temporarily fix it and curb the damage, that sort of thing.

[shellashock]

Moromillas, on 13 February 2014 - 09:09 PM, said:

I can't see this being king with streaks you're talking about, they have their uses, like hitting fast lights, yet they certainly don't lord over all else.

I seem to remember in an NGNG that Russ, or one of the developers were talking about their stance on hit mechanics, and random mechanics.

It was said that if you were to aim directly at a Mech, in a way that would hit the Mech, it is very frustrating when you fire and nothing happens. I tend to agree with that, I've not see a mwo build of this, but not just random chance to miss mechanics, but other things where you can experience just how frustrating that is.

I hear that randoms were a good mechanic on the tabletop, but the video game needs to be fun. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Developers have also mentioned they don't like the randomness of the ultra ac's, I've tried them, and yeah, jam after you fire once is not fun at all. Not just that, but the random nature of the weapon in general.

Damage spread for streaks is actually pretty good now. That's one of the many reasons I took a break, the balance, having something OP, and putting a hotfix on to temporarily fix it and curb the damage, that sort of thing.

I think you misunderstood me when I said that alpha striking large amounts of streaks was king. I was not trying to say that alpha striking large amounts of streaks was king over everything, but it is better in nearly every way outside of cockpit shake and possibly ghost heat then chainfiring or alpha striking lower amounts of streaks.

If you chainfire, your damage shouldn't be any more spread out over the mech then usual, but it will take longer to get through your salvo which directly equals less damage. Until heat gets in the way, alpha striking would always be better then chainfiring if using the same number of streaks. If you are boating a large amount of streaks, you will obviously have more damage potential and a higher chance of destroying a mech then if you only had a couple streaks.

As long as streaks still target the "bones" of a mech, my system could still be implemented. It is simply just changing what bones will be targeted depending on either how many streaks you fire at once or how many streaks you have period (see *important* at top).

In addition, this system is not adding a random mechanic like the UAC that determines when it will jam and stop working for a bit. Is is actually just a random mechanic that decides based on the percentage chance per "bone" what "bone" each streak missile will target. Also, I also think that streak damage spread fells pretty good right now, but I also think that streaks need to be viable when they are not mass boated. This is what I am hoping my idea will resolve, or at the very least help.

So to recap, I am not saying that alpha striking large amounts of streaks is king over everything, simply king over chainfiring streaks en masse and alpha striking a lower amount of streaks. In addition, this is not a random mechanic to determine whether a streak misses, just a random mechanic to determine where on the mech the streak will hit.

Finally, to clear up confusion, this idea is to try to make firing streaks in any amount viable.

[Moromillas]

shellashock, on 14 February 2014 - 04:18 AM, said:

I think you misunderstood me when I said that alpha striking large amounts of streaks was king. I was not trying to say that alpha striking large amounts of streaks was king over everything, but it is better in nearly every way outside of cockpit shake and possibly ghost heat then chainfiring or alpha striking lower amounts of streaks. If you chainfire, your damage shouldn't be any more spread out over the mech then usual, but it will take longer to get through your salvo which directly equals less damage. Until heat gets in the way, alpha striking would always be better then chainfiring if using the same number of streaks. If you are boating a large amount of streaks, you will obviously have more damage potential and a higher chance of destroying a mech then if you only had a couple streaks. As long as streaks still target the "bones" of a mech, my system could still be implemented. It is simply just changing what bones will be targeted depending on either how many streaks you fire at once or how many streaks you have period (see *important* at top). In addition, this system is not adding a random mechanic like the UAC that determines when it will jam and stop working for a bit. Is is actually just a random mechanic that decides based on the percentage chance per "bone" what "bone" each streak missile will target. Also, I also think that streak damage spread fells pretty good right now, but I also think that streaks need to be viable when they are not mass boated. This is what I am hoping my idea will resolve, or at the very least help. So to recap, I am not saying that alpha striking large amounts of streaks is king over everything, simply king over chainfiring streaks en masse and alpha striking a lower amount of streaks. In addition, this is not a random mechanic to determine whether a streak misses, just a random mechanic to determine where on the mech the streak will hit. Finally, to clear up confusion, this idea is to try to make firing streaks in any amount viable.

There is a miss mechanic when all the chance to hit percentages don't add up to 100%, which is a random mechanic.

If the numbers do add up to 100% instead of a chance to miss, where there's a greater chance to hit CT with less missiles fired, that's not something I would want to go back to. CT streaks were unbalanced, it meant that their damage had to be temporarily curbed with a hotfix because you could just keep hitting CT with no fuss.

Making streak boats less powerful is the same as making single streak more powerful. Single streaks were made more powerful than boating, their solution was ghost heat, and not tweaking the hit chance. It seems fine where it is, it's not supposed to be a heavy hitter for high armor Mechs. If steak is OP, or UP, I'd rather a balance via damage and/or ghost heat, and not hit chance.

Not mad, but "you don't understand," is not something you should say to people, just saying.

[shellashock]

Moromillas, on 14 February 2014 - 07:09 AM, said:

There is a miss mechanic when all the chance to hit percentages don't add up to 100%, which is a random mechanic.

If the numbers do add up to 100% instead of a chance to miss, where there's a greater chance to hit CT with less missiles fired, that's not something I would want to go back to. CT streaks were unbalanced, it meant that their damage had to be temporarily curbed with a hotfix because you could just keep hitting CT with no fuss.

Making streak boats less powerful is the same as making single streak more powerful. Single streaks were made more powerful than boating, their solution was ghost heat, and not tweaking the hit chance. It seems fine where it is, it's not supposed to be a heavy hitter for high armor Mechs. If steak is OP, or UP, I'd rather a balance via damage and/or ghost heat, and not hit chance.

Not mad, but "you don't understand," is not something you should say to people, just saying.

Uh, isn't a random mechanic a mechanic that uses code to determine how something should happen; in this case, what bone a streak missile will target? You know, independent of player skill or aiming or whatever? Not trying to be condescending, just confused.

OK, just to make sure I've got things right. You are saying that you did not like it when streaks always hit center torso all the time with the exception of splash and terrain/building collisions and you are much happier with the current sandpapering streak behavior, correct? Okay, that's fine. I personally did not like those days where the Raven 3L was king of the light mech hill either. I also agree that CT homing streak missiles were OP, but ONLY BECAUSE THEY WERE ONLY CT.

I personally think that if there was relatively high chance to hit CT, but with a say 10 % chance to hit either RT or LT for ONE LAUNCHER, then streaks wouldn't have to be boated to be useful. I understand that this chance of deviance would become trivial if streaks were boated, so I decided that the increased damage potential of more launchers should be offset by an increased overall spread around the mech per launcher added. As my chart shows (experimental values btw), the more launchers you add to your mech, the chances of hitting CT gets lower and spreads out around the mech more (head excluded to avoid a freak chance OHHS situation).

I am not sure where you get the idea that a single streak is better then boating streaks tbh. I mean, the ghost heat limit IIRC is 4. Boating streaks usually means boating three or more streaks. So it is still possible to boat and launch up to four missiles simultaneously without any ghost heat penalties. That is why I do not agree with that statement.

In addition, my problem is not that streaks are not heavily hitting high armour mechs, it is that it is extremely difficult to do well with streaks unless you are boating streaks. This sandpapering method works great for streak boats because it limits their ability to destroy an enemy with only a few salvos yet nets them high damage (and therefore more cbills). The problem is that the hit chances do not change with lesser amounts of streaks and this neuters anyone who tries to use only a couple streaks compared to 4/5/6 streaks.

In short, I am just trying to make streaks be capable of being used effectively IN THEIR NICHE ROLE IN ANY AMOUNT. Take lots of streaks and sandpaper the mechs for more damage and more shake to disrupt their aim. Take less streaks and be able to do damage to more critical sections, ie killing the mech faster. Your lower damage potential SHOULD (not will) balance out the increased chance for hitting CT.

I hope I made this clear to you that I do not want to return to the days of auto CT streaks, but simply want streaks to be effective in their role in any amount.

P.S: Again, not trying to be condescending, but there is a big difference to telling someone "You don't know what I'm talking about." and "I think you misunderstood me. Let me try to rephrase that to clear up any misconceptions." I was only trying to say that you misunderstood me and then tried to rephrase my idea so it would make more sense to you.

(btw, sorry for the late reply)

Edited by shellashock, 21 February 2014 - 04:33 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

My first impression is that your numbers super heavily weight toward the CT, even with large quantities of SSRMs being fired. That is very dangerous, and something that PGI needs to avoid at all costs.

As far as what value to use when firing SSRMs, if PGI did do this, it should base it on total SSRM tubes mounted, not per-shot or anything. Chainfiring would become OP if they did it per-shot. This would also allow it to scale with larger launcher sizes (coming with the Clans).

[shellashock]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 21 February 2014 - 07:21 PM, said:

My first impression is that your numbers super heavily weight toward the CT, even with large quantities of SSRMs being fired. That is very dangerous, and something that PGI needs to avoid at all costs.

As far as what value to use when firing SSRMs, if PGI did do this, it should base it on total SSRM tubes mounted, not per-shot or anything. Chainfiring would become OP if they did it per-shot. This would also allow it to scale with larger launcher sizes (coming with the Clans).

True, chainfiring would become way too powerful if implemented this way (Never thought i would say that.) I'll make sure to update the main OP to confirm that it should be locked to amount of streak launchers mounted. Now that you mention it, it could be interesting to see if clan streak balancing could be helped along by this kind of method of tweaking hit location chances with the increase of missiles per launcher that would come with clans.

As mentioned in the OP, these numbers are all experimental and I simply chose them because (IMO) the percentages scale nicely together without having to get into complex percentage combinations or decimals. I personally would like to see 5/6 streaks having the same kind of spread we have now and 1/2 streaks having 2/3rds the spread of the CT only streaks, but that is just personal preference.

I would also like to thank you for your feedback and hope that you could help me out. If you would be so kind, please make a post with a chart that displays what percentage values you think would work per hit location in this thread. I would also highly appreciate it if you could show me how to add a proper cell graph in this forum (if that is possible).

Edited by shellashock, 21 February 2014 - 07:52 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Bullet lists are easy, charts are hard. I have no idea how to do real charts aside from making an image and embedding it or something.

I figure if you start around 50% CT (Head is always 0%, arms and legs are split evenly, and side torsos are half again the arm/leg %), then the numbers for 2 tubes (1 SSRM2) should look something like this:

Head: 0%
CT: 50%
RT: 11%
LT: 11%
RA: 7%
LA: 7%
RL: 7%
LL: 7%

4 tubes would begin reducing the %, with the end level (say, 8+ tubes) being something like this:

Head: 0%
CT: 16%
RT: 14%
LT: 14%
RA: 14%
LA: 14%
RL: 14%
LL: 14%

It remains at this level for all tube numbers beyond 8. In between there should be a trend from CT-focus to overall equalization.

[shellashock]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 21 February 2014 - 08:07 PM, said:

Bullet lists are easy, charts are hard. I have no idea how to do real charts aside from making an image and embedding it or something.

I figure if you start around 50% CT (Head is always 0%, arms and legs are split evenly, and side torsos are half again the arm/leg %), then the numbers for 2 tubes (1 SSRM2) should look something like this:

Head: 0%
CT: 50%
RT: 11%
LT: 11%
RA: 7%
LA: 7%
RL: 7%
LL: 7%

4 tubes would begin reducing the %, with the end level (say, 8+ tubes) being something like this:

Head: 0%
CT: 16%
RT: 14%
LT: 14%
RA: 14%
LA: 14%
RL: 14%
LL: 14%

It remains at this level for all tube numbers beyond 8. In between there should be a trend from CT-focus to overall equalization.

Sounds good. I like the idea of having spread increases stop at the ghost heat limit so ghost heat can pick up the penalty slack without having to get the head hitbox into the mix. It sure would be nice if one week or two out of the year PGI could take lots of these little ideas off the forums and see how viable they would be and how much they would change gameplay for the better on the test server. Of course that would probably take a huge chunk out of their programming time budget, so I wouldn't expect that to happen for a long time.

I'll put up a poll to see what people like better, your spread or mine. If people like your spread better by a significant margin, I'll make it the default suggestion for this thread.

Edited by shellashock, 22 February 2014 - 09:02 AM.