26 replies to this topic

[Kymlaar]

Thank you to those who corrected me concerning the tabletop rules. It's been quite a while since the tabletop, and I received my reminder of the rules incorrectly. However, as Osric stated there are situations where it is the case.

An interesting discussion appears to be going on. I notice that some people have suggested that jump jets are too powerful as they are, but I haven't seen a real explanation as to the why/how. Would someone be able to elaborate?

As for those mentioning that the first jump jet is too powerful, I agree entirely. I think that a linear scale would be better, or even one with a slight upward curve. You should gain more by spending more weight/slots, not gain less per.

Finally, I still stand by my belief that in the case of MOST mechs jump jetting simply provides an easier and more predictable target for most people. The possible exception would likely be a laggy pilot for whom jumpjets might cause interesting network prediction issues (not sure if that appears or not). I would expect that jump jets could get me to my maximum movement speed (at least) relatively quickly all by themselves in any direction, not that they can really only let me continue at the same or a slower speed and in the same direction. Perhaps a method by which their are direction jump jets such that you choose your direction before activating them, and it looks like your mech jumps off in that direction? Thus you press the back/left button (maybe use keypad by default?) then when you press space your mech jumps off back and to the left. A method like this would add complexity to using them (a full set of 4 or 8 keys, depending on how you do it) and thus make them a tactical option that requires planning (at least enough to press keypad 2 before jumping in order to go backward).

[ManDaisy]

Simple answer, jumpjet modules. You sacrifice other buffs for those to specialize your mech.

[LauLiao]

Osric Lancaster, on 14 February 2014 - 06:54 PM, said:

While technically true, adhering to the strictest interpretation of battletech rules ends up looking pretty silly in practice a lot of times in a stompy robot simulator. Tabletop is a simplification, you can't convert it directly. Case and point; if we are go entirely by what's allowed in the tabletop game, you would not be able to walk backwards over terrain elevation changes. Now, you have to admit that would be a bit silly, right? Similarly, a multi ton mass launched into the sky on a pillar of fire does not lose momentum as quickly as the 'Mechs in MWO. Besides, in TT you could also take a 'Mech at a dead run and then use jumpjets to drop it over a chunk of terrain in a completely different / opposite direction next turn. Sure that's in a 10 second window, but also a game with a considerably higher time to kill. Now, if you want WSAD to allow directional jump jet controls on airborne 'Mechs and then set a hard limits on their velocity, I'm all for that. Jumpjets as they are now though aren't what I'd call. . . overpowered. Consider this - most 'Mechs in MWO can run up a hill (that they actually can run up at their top speed) faster than they can jump up it. In TT, walking up terrain elevations of 1 cost 1 mp. So say you have a 3/5/3 'Mech going up a 3 hex ramp. Running up that ramp would take 6 move points. That means you could jump up that ramp in one 10 second turn, where as running up it would take over ten seconds.

For everyone that thinks jumpjets are overpowered, let me pose a challenge. -
Explain, in writing, concisely what makes jump-firing or poptarting so powerful that it needs rebalancing.
. . .

Got it? Good.

1 - Does your explanation mention pinpoint damage?
--> That is a convergence issue.
2 - Does your explanation mention projectile travel speed or lock time?
a - Will that explanation also apply to fast hill humping 'Mechs like the blackjack?
--> That goes both ways. Fit TAG for missiles, get hit-scan weapons and move when you're being shot at.
Get a spotter, get closer or get cover.
b - What? It has to do with the magical ability of Jumpjet pixies to make people really good shots?
. . . I don't understand. Please explain.

I'm not at all calling for a strict interpretation of the TT rules, but rather simply that the SPIRIT of the rules be followed and the spirit of that rule is that JJ were for additional maneuverability in difficult terrain, not speed.

[Mechteric]

http://www.youtube.c...Z4VYRW8#t=1m20s

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 17 February 2014 - 10:52 AM.

[Gladewolf]

LauLiao, on 17 February 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:

I'm not at all calling for a strict interpretation of the TT rules, but rather simply that the SPIRIT of the rules be followed and the spirit of that rule is that JJ were for additional maneuverability in difficult terrain, not speed.

Additional maneuverability in terrain= speed....unless I can't move forward far enough to land on what I was aiming for at which point it amounts to a frustrating slide back down a hill....for no other reason than...not enough forward thrust(Alpine Peaks is the best example)

[Sandpit]

Kymlaar, on 17 February 2014 - 09:07 AM, said:

Thank you to those who corrected me concerning the tabletop rules. It's been quite a while since the tabletop, and I received my reminder of the rules incorrectly. However, as Osric stated there are situations where it is the case.

An interesting discussion appears to be going on. I notice that some people have suggested that jump jets are too powerful as they are, but I haven't seen a real explanation as to the why/how. Would someone be able to elaborate?

As for those mentioning that the first jump jet is too powerful, I agree entirely. I think that a linear scale would be better, or even one with a slight upward curve. You should gain more by spending more weight/slots, not gain less per.

Finally, I still stand by my belief that in the case of MOST mechs jump jetting simply provides an easier and more predictable target for most people. The possible exception would likely be a laggy pilot for whom jumpjets might cause interesting network prediction issues (not sure if that appears or not). I would expect that jump jets could get me to my maximum movement speed (at least) relatively quickly all by themselves in any direction, not that they can really only let me continue at the same or a slower speed and in the same direction. Perhaps a method by which their are direction jump jets such that you choose your direction before activating them, and it looks like your mech jumps off in that direction? Thus you press the back/left button (maybe use keypad by default?) then when you press space your mech jumps off back and to the left. A method like this would add complexity to using them (a full set of 4 or 8 keys, depending on how you do it) and thus make them a tactical option that requires planning (at least enough to press keypad 2 before jumping in order to go backward).

Short answer is most are mad about poptarting tactics.

That's the only reason anyone complains about JJs for the most part.

[Diablo Intercepter]

I don't think speed is as much as a problem as the lack of horizontal control is. Just being able to slowly ascend 25 m isn't enough for people to give up firepower or equipment. It saddens me how many Highlander build threads have multiple people showing builds that have no jump jets (I'm going to talk about this later because I think it highlights why poptarting is still around). That means the jets arent even worth the ability to poptart! Also the vertical thrust on some of the heavier mechs needs to be adjusted, and I argue that it should be increased. I understand the idea that a 90 ton battlemech is hard to lift, but the jets weight is 2 tons, I would assume that the heavier the jet's trust would increase along with the weight/size of the jet. However I think that 3 half ton jets on a medium provide more lift than 3 2 tons on a highlander.

I'm just going to briefly mention this, but how come the victor (which gets to use 1 ton jets) using 3 jets gets the same height as a highlander using 3 jets? Does the 10 tons make *THAT* much of a difference? Also the highlander is lucky to get over 60, so you really only go up, youre not clearing any gap with the current jets. I have just given up on trying to understand this, because it seems like BS.

In all of the highlanders (excluding the heavy metal) 3 is the max amount of jump jets. The jets take forever to get up to the max height, so you will run out *just* before you can reach anything. Without collision most highlanders will be poptart mechs, because that is almost the only thing it can do with the jets. I've seen way too many highlander builds that advise against using jump jets, which is sad because its very true that those 6 tons can be better spent on ANYTHING. In most non poptart highlander builds that put in any jump jets are handicapping themselves, you give up 2 tons for a 5.5 m hop. There is a lot you can do with 2 tons, so a good number of highlanders end up as 90 ton atlases. Some people add the jets and don't use them in a match. It's a sad thing to say but whenever I am asked what assault to get I can never say the highlander, because you wont be a 90 ton mech jumping around the map, you'll get either a weak mech or a 5.5 m jump.

So what can a highlander do other than poptart? Be a missile boat? Be a really heavy support mech? Max armor to tank? There are other mechs that can preform these rolls better (stalker, STD engine victor/awesome, atlas), so you get poptarting


I don't believe most poptarters find jumping up and shooting until they are cored fun. I know that some people do (we will never stop these people, no nerf will ever be powerful enough). If you try to make mechs with jump jets a more engaging alternative to poptarting people will slowly begin shifting from "meta builds" to builds they actually enjoy. I think the heavy metal (or at least in my case it was) allows for more options with it's 5 jets (10 tons for 25 m still feels like a very uneven trade off considering what the jets are capable of IMO). The HM can actually cross a gap, or land on top of a building the enemy is behind and crush a mech before its friends realise what happened. Piloting the heavy metal with 5 jump jets is FUN. I like being able to get over huge ridges that the enemy thinks they're safe behind. I DONT WANT TO POPTART IN THE HM.

The only way to 100% get rid of poptarting is to remove jump jets from the game. Poptarting is easy, you get good results with minimal effort. Some people are playing a different game than you are, they don't want to engage in a huge awesome fight, they want to sit behind a wall and plink at you until you die. If you don't believe that is true, there are still people who farm cbills. I don't remember the last time I actually was in a match where we had all 24 people playing at the beginning of the match. Crazy people dont stop being crazy because you changed the ac 10 speed, they get rid of their missiles and use 2 ac 5s.

Just choose to remove the jump jets or make jump jets more useful for the standard poptart mechs. Make jump jets something people actually will use when being shot at, the only people who do this consistently are lights. Make jumping out of a long ac 20 shot possible. You don't have to make jump jets easy to use, in fact I think mastering jump jets should be a skill not everyone will want to learn, it should take time and effort, just like how adjusting to the gauss charge deterred the over usage of the gun. If it needs to be a module that costs 15000 gxp and then 6000000 cbills fine. If you need to add the chance that a damaged jet could explode do it. Making a bad thing that people are stuck with worse will just make people be bigger scumbags or will remove jump jets from everything except lights.

Or just nerf everything into the ground, make everything so bad that no one will be able to do anything. Just make MWO qwop, if almost no one can do it, its basically balanced.

Edited by Diablo Intercepter, 17 February 2014 - 01:06 PM.