52 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

Koniving, on 14 February 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

If you ever run around on low ELO or pick up newbies to lower your ELO, you may notice that pretty much 99% of new players are ~not~ using AMS. Why does it need to penetrate AMS? Also consider the bigger the launcher the less ammo you get and the more likely you'll become useless in the field.

Because matchmaker sucks every 3rd person on the field is probably top ELO and at least 1 that just joined the game THAT DAY lately, so..

Koniving, on 14 February 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

You posted copy/pasted builds from a guild running the latest meta which generally assumes you can afford to purchase 3 Atlases with cbills on the spot and fully deck them out.

"What's the situation?"
"I'm broke. Help me out?"
"Great! Well for the price of two Shadowhawks, you can run this build! Or if that isn't enough, try this one; the engine alone costs more than your mech did."

It's good to have a good build to strive towards, and then begin mapping towards that. Picking up weapons you'll need for it, etc. and stuffing them into place. Rather than going on a horrible tangent.

Koniving, on 14 February 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

Really. 4.25 damage per second is pretty damn good considering it was 3.5 tons. 4 medium lasers at 4 tons is 5 DPS and 4 times the heat. I've seen you support the use of 4 medium lasers many times. It's called working with what the person has. And since lasers and MGs work the same (DPS weapons) it only makes sense to combine them when tonnage is low.

1) None of the weapons can do damage the same optimum range
2) That DPS assumes you sit there and expose yourself to hose someone down with tickles from machineguns
3) It literally has weapons that cannot overlap with each other (MG / LRM)
4) "People may notice you if you have TAG" is still a silly thing to say, esp. since it gives useful XP & CBill bonuses too

Koniving, on 14 February 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

Note: It takes 6 missiles to penetrate 1 AMS. (Less from behind.) That combination sports 25 missiles.

Of those 6, 1 gets through. An AMS in your path - not your target - will take about 12 base. 2 AMS will take 24 base if in your path. You see where I'm going with this.

Koniving, on 14 February 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

Now the builds you quoted? Very similar to mine. The one used a medium laser, 2 AC/5s. I was going to put that up but I didn't want to screw him with low armor. There's also the fact that he will draw a lot of attention to himself. The streak and AC/5 build? Very commonly run by me, but the sacrifice to armor at that size didn't strike me as worth it. The CT took a big hit in protection for that and he's got the stock armor of a Hunchback. You know, that mech you hate so much despite how superior it is to the Centurion?

I say they are superior because they are building towards a proper 'mech and not deviating wildly with this weird bad LRM/no augment+MG frankenmech.

Koniving, on 14 February 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

Also, note my builds got lumped together with Roughneck's. Similarities get lumped together.

But seriously. Run single heatsinks for a while. Try loading up some of those meta rigs you love so much on SHS. See how far ya get. With a bit of experience under your belt I'm hoping you'll learn to be a bit humbler. Actually you just might learn that some non-meta weapons simply work better in their situation.

Might. Probably too stubborn.

Pizza's done! *Whoosh!*

The meta Shadow Hawk wouldn't be awful. 2 AC/5s is decently cool. Cool enough to put up with while I saved up DHS money anyway.

[Denolven]

Koniving, on 14 February 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

Pizza's done! *Whoosh!*

Haha that's always the most important part, isn't it

Also Victor, it amazes me how you consistently fail to properly grasp the actual task. You are so much buried in your thing that you are blind for all the other stuff. At first it made me angry because I thought you are explicitly ignorant or trolling (back when we talked about pilot-mech-synergy), but then it made me sad when I realized that you probably just lost track at some point. So now I smile when I see you. Maybe all it needs is a big hug to drag you back to the real life

If you happen to visit Germany, feel free to PM me to get your personal dose of hug. Until then, joy and fluffyness have to suffice.
(Yeah that's right, 75 million views - it's only a matter of time until we get you )

[salkeee]

I just wna say thank u all again !!!

I didnt sell my Jagermech thou I was temped to do it before I bought ShadowHawk only to buy it again but I didnt and thats good 1 day I ll be able to drive it I m sure.

I learned a lot from all posts specialy from Koniving

I did tested dual AC5s with and without ML with low armor on hands/1hand and lil lover armor on legs no JJs.Was dealing decent dmg per battle acording to my exp but I was geting assists only rarely I would finish some1 off so no kills I felt somewhat useless.
I did try mixin up AC5 and AC2 and SSRMs I had those weps left from experimenting with jag but same thing no kills and was shooting like crazy.
Thats the point I felt that I got bad mech.

I must admit that I was so suspicious on MGs for some odd reason I didnt like tham from begining of this game idk why lol.
So eventualy I got my self Double Heat sinks and tried to test those builds with MGs ML/MPL and SSRMs and it was fine but being limited to only close range made me with low dmg on some battles but I did got kills quite often.
So I decided to try LL instead of ML or MPL and thats when I realy started to enjoy this mech I get good dmg I get kills its actualy fun

So this is what I run curently ...
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...73806a30d1392d5
...now I dont know if maybe instead of LL somehow I put LPL is it worth it or should I squeze in a BAP.
Well BAP and LPL are last things I will maybe buy,dam but Id like to try AC20,I m not gona try LRMs not soon at least I will try to get some Cbills and eventualy buy my self SHD-5M he comes with XL engine as some1 said and I will have 2 ShadowHawks to experimenth with and to get a feeling in those XL engines.

sry for typos and not so good knowlege of english language

tl:dr ty for constructive posts goal achieved I enjoy SHD-2H

[Arnold J Rimmer]

salkeee, on 16 February 2014 - 05:24 AM, said:

post

That's a pretty decent build for a SHD, actually. Nice little crit-hunter.

Avoid the LPL for now, it's still not great compared to the LL. It's being adjusted Soon™. Not sure how, though.

Definitely listen to Koniving, he's got a pretty ridiculous post-rate here. His builds are a little weird (I think it's a self-nerf ) but his advice is spot on. If you decide to go down the meta road and go for competitive-type matches (and have a wallet thick enough), go for Victor's advice. He confuses fact and assertion, still, but he has a good handle on the meta and how best to min-max your builds.

[ImperialKnight]

Light Killer

More Light Mech Killing Action

Direct Fire Support

Indirect Fire Support

Some suggestions

Edited by knightsljx, 16 February 2014 - 06:58 AM.

[Nick Makiaveli]

salkeee, on 16 February 2014 - 05:24 AM, said:

I did tested dual AC5s with and without ML with low armor on hands/1hand and lil lover armor on legs no JJs.Was dealing decent dmg per battle acording to my exp but I was geting assists only rarely I would finish some1 off so no kills I felt somewhat useless.

It's a team based game, so what's important is winning, and helping your team win. If you shot at people who died, then you helped kill them. That's what's important. My KDR is .40 so don't feel bad. My win percentage is around 48%.

But that's partly since I don't hunt kills, I've spent entire matches just spotting or capping etc. Whatever the team needs to win.

salkeee, on 16 February 2014 - 05:24 AM, said:

sry for typos and not so good knowlege of english language

No worries, practice makes perfect and I've seen worse from native speakers

[Koniving]

Arnold J Rimmer, on 16 February 2014 - 06:42 AM, said:

Avoid the LPL for now, it's still not great compared to the LL. It's being adjusted Soon™. Not sure how, though.

Definitely listen to Koniving, he's got a pretty ridiculous post-rate here. His builds are a little weird (I think it's a self-nerf ) but his advice is spot on.

My builds for myself are typically the weird ones. I do try to give new players reasonable builds to suit their situation. I disagree on the LPL not being great, I find it to be the second best laser you can get (though my favorite is 100% the SPL). But for what Salkee is running I definitely think the Large Pulse Laser is not the path to take.

P.S. I hope the post-rate isn't the deciding factor in whether or not to listen to me.
(Btw that art class ended; another one started but I have time and began writing new scripts.)

Spoiler

As you can imagine my mood about cramming the assignments yesterday and the next class starting tomorrow is less than enthusiastic. Having to gender shift my characters for the assignments also sucked.

So this has been me mentally brooding for some time. This morning between 3 and 6 I even had a little rant about all the things that make me unhappy about MWO.

Oddly enough, almost none of it had to do with balance. A first, right?

Spoiler

Instead had to do with weapon models specifically barrel and missile port sizes, SRMs defying recently learned lore, the uselessness of LRMs in MWO versus the nature of LRMs in what I've been reading which works entirely differently, and the fact that PGI used CryEngine for high quality graphics and has instead progressively made them worse over the past two years.

So yeah. Heh. Fun.

salkeee, on 16 February 2014 - 05:24 AM, said:

I learned a lot from all posts specialy from Koniving (Yay! ~Kon.)

I must admit that I was so suspicious on MGs for some odd reason I didnt like them from beginning of this game idk why lol.
So eventualy I got my self Double Heat sinks and tried to test those builds with MGs ML/MPL and SSRMs and it was fine but being limited to only close range made me with low dmg on some battles but I did got kills quite often.
So I decided to try LL instead of ML or MPL and thats when I realy started to enjoy this mech I get good dmg I get kills its actualy fun

So this is what I run curently ...
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...73806a30d1392d5
...now I dont know if maybe instead of LL somehow I put LPL is it worth it or should I squeze in a BAP.

tl:dr ty for constructive posts goal achieved I enjoy SHD-2H

Sounds like fun. And yeah the MGs were definitely not intended for use with streaks but for LRMs (as a backup after you did the work to weaken them yourself). But glad you got to see my point to Victor, the MGs are very effective at getting kills because they always hit the target. This means when the enemy is almost dead since you always hit the enemy the team is not (quite as) able to steal your kills.

Victor hasn't used a machine gun in so long I don't think he realizes how powerful they really are in the right conditions.

Now, because you have double heatsinks you can consider either a PPC, ER PPC (runs hotter but the machine guns more than make up for it when too hot), or an ER (Extended Range) Large Laser. All three of these energy weapons have longer range than your Large Laser.

While I love the Large Pulse Laser, it's range is similar to the medium laser. Meaning you will lose your long range weapon. It shoots faster and the laser beam is shorter. But it is not long range.

Also if you are running streaks you ~must~ run BAP or there will be times when you cannot fire your missiles. Even Victor would agree with me here.

AC/20 is a fun gun. You'll probably like it. Just remember it's pretty short range. (Personally I always back up my AC/20 with MGs). And truth be told the "M" series of most Battlemechs is typically the best one in terms of money. They usually come with double heatsinks, maybe Endo, and almost always with an XL engine at 1/10th the cost for that engine because MWO reduced the prices of XL-stock mechs.

XL, so you know, stands (ironically) for both Extra Light and Extra Large. I thought that was cute. Remember an XL engine makes you easier to kill, but is usually half the weight. So if your standard engine is 9 tons, the XL is probably gonna be 4.5 to 5 tons.

Edited by Koniving, 16 February 2014 - 09:12 AM.

[Koniving]

knightsljx, on 16 February 2014 - 06:56 AM, said:

Light Killer

More Light Mech Killing Action

Direct Fire Support

Indirect Fire Support

Some suggestions

Well damn.

• The first light hunter mech, though.. Seems like far too little ammo. I know what the PPC is for. My god the speed!
  
• The More Light Killing Action is essentially what Salkee has + the ER LL I just recommended to him + an engine faster than anything I've ever used in a 55 ton mech or ever seen in the field! (O_O I LIKE! Originality!) (One thing; changed the DHS location and the ammo location to better protect them. I worry about my ammo exploding in the arm but only because I use my arms to block missiles).
  
• The indirect is similar to my idea on the first page (except built to DHS and XL).
  
• The direct fire rig looks like a bit of hill humping fun.

Truth be told my aim at high speed is terrible. That's why my personal sharp shooting rigs are low speed.

But some of these mechs going that fast in the right conditions just might scare me.

Once I saw this Atlas, he was pushing 64 or 65 kph and my entire team needed a new pair of pants. Fastest one I ever saw.

(If an Atlas did that back in closed beta before the XL engines, I don't think anyone would know what to do. It literally could knock everyone down to the ground by running into them.)

---------
Bonus! Atlas punches (kinda) the Hunchback, knocking it down!

Edited by Koniving, 16 February 2014 - 08:51 AM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

salkeee, on 16 February 2014 - 05:24 AM, said:

no kills I felt somewhat useless.

Don't worry to much about kills - I spend a lot of games performing supresion fire (shooting hills to keep people's heads down) or watching the back of the mob (Chasing away those lights that would hit the rear armor)
Neither role does much damage or gets many kills, but both are invaluable when needed.

[ImperialKnight]

Koniving, on 16 February 2014 - 08:48 AM, said:

Well damn.

• The first light hunter mech, though.. Seems like far too little ammo. I know what the PPC is for. My god the speed!
  
• The More Light Killing Action is essentially what Salkee has + the ER LL I just recommended to him + an engine faster than anything I've ever used in a 55 ton mech or ever seen in the field! (O_O I LIKE! Originality!) (One thing; changed the DHS location and the ammo location to better protect them. I worry about my ammo exploding in the arm but only because I use my arms to block missiles).

Must have been drunk putting the ammo in the arm or something. ammo goes in legs

I realised OP is just starting out and probably don't have enough to blow on an XL360. Here's some eco builds, but OP should really try to get an XL soon.

Cheap Indirect Fire Support

Cheap Direct Fire Support

Cheap Light Killer

[Denolven]

salkeee, on 16 February 2014 - 05:24 AM, said:

no kills and was shooting like crazy.
Thats the point I felt that I got bad mech.

Assists give higher rewards than kills, check the result screen at the end of a battle

Think more like a mobile turret. You soften them up at long/mid range. Of course they will go into cover to avoid being killed by you. But that's where your allied skirmishers/assassins come in - they can finish off the now weakened opponents easily.
I know this is not as easy as it sounds - when I started the Blackjack I was terrible (w/l ratio 0.2). But I asked in the forum and they gave me good tipps, and now it's one of my top 3 favorite mechs, and my w/l ratio is up to 0.95 and raising

What you need is the proper mindset for each mech. In the case of Shadowhawk with long range weaponry (AC5, AC2, Gauss): be a mobile turret.
Not a pistolero, not a wrestler, not an assassin, but a turret. Like the Jagermech. The only reason you have legs is to get into a better turret position . The shoulder-mounted ballistics are ideal for peeking over hills. Try to find a hill that you can peek over and cover a big area at mid/long range, just like in a tower defense game. All those AC/20 people can't shoot back at that range. If you have no cover available, use your Atlas buddy as cover. Stay near the team (behind the blob, not in the blob).
Advanced Zoom module helps alot and is a worthy long term goal (2.000.000 C-Bills).

Edited by Denolven, 18 February 2014 - 01:46 AM.

[dragnier1]

salkeee, on 16 February 2014 - 05:24 AM, said:

So this is what I run curently ... http://mwo.smurfy-ne...73806a30d1392d5

This build is good. If you want you can drop 1/2 ton of armor, 1 jj and 1 dhs to get LPL. The single jj you keep will be for quick turning.

Just to update this: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...cbb74dbfcafc8db
You can replace the LPL with ppc/erppc if you so wish. This is also assuming you'll keep the 2H for good.

Edited by dragnier1, 18 February 2014 - 06:31 AM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Denolven, on 18 February 2014 - 01:26 AM, said:

Assists give higher rewards than kills, check the result screen at the end of a battle

Flat out yes, but since you cannot get a kill without at least 1 component destruction, it actually adds up to be the same. (or higher in the case of the kill, if it involves multiple component destructions)