34 replies to this topic

[lsp]

Boating is due to this is mechwarrior, and there will always be a more effective choice. And the competitive players, such as it is in life, will always choose the most effective option. And then boat it. Think it's funny that they're even trying to fight this kind of behavior, if anything they should encourage it. Bring everything up to a competitive level, not down to a unusable level.

Edited by lsp, 14 February 2014 - 10:44 PM.

[Asmudius Heng]

lsp, on 14 February 2014 - 10:42 PM, said:

Boating is due to this is mechwarrior, and there will always be a more effective choice. And the competitive players, such as it is in life, will always choose the most effective option. And then boat it. Think it's funny that they're even trying to fight this kind of behavior, if anything they should encourage it. Bring everything up to a competitive level, not down to a unusable level.

That is a simplistic thought process.

Competative players want variety too.

Makign weapons synergise better with each other is what is really needed so that boating one type of weapon might be advantageous but there are many other advantages for taking different weapon combos.

Right now the weapons systems are so simplistic its easy to see which ones get the most bang for your buck en mass.

[Noesis]

Mechs are built with a Min/Max KISS mentality with the best weapons possible. This will happen regardless of the relative "Power".

However rightfully for balance reasons AC/PPC weapons do better with Range, DPS, Pinpoint, FLD delivery that overshadows the other spectrum of weapon use atm.

The game also has had an increase in heat capacity and reduction of dissipation that has orientated things more towards alpha configurations than managed arrangements. This even with ghost heat to prevent some more ridiculous alpha applications since some mixed arrangements as above still deliver pinpoint application of damage. If heat capacity where reduced and dissipation increased, this would lead to more managed use of weapons, though it would leave some ACs that don't suffer so much from heat as the main things to alpha then unless they had a change in weapon firing times.

Peripherals may reduce the idea of building too many weapons groups with alternative weapon characteristics, this also sensibly makes weapon use for a Mech simpler to pilot also.

People will orientate weapon use with Mech roles also to maximize that use and co-ordinate within a team to be of most benefit at doing something as opposed to trying to be an "all seasons in one day" Mech. E.g. A Mech will try to pick weapons of a similar range and operate at that range for best potential. This as opposed to having weapons at differing ranges as per canon. This most evident in MWO where the sniping game has the best confidence so for the best part pilots try to max sniping weapon use and forgo any other weapons for other ranges. This also due to the fact that these weapons for the large part have no issue being capably used still at shorter range.

The idea that we can pilot the biggest and slowest Mechs will also mean that there could be a need for weapons to utilise range well to compensate for this lack of speed and also to try and apply damage as far out as possible. This whilst in a platform that utilises the best defense capabilities with armour. But this encouragement is largely a choice I feel due to the rewards and purposes in a game simply being orientated to damage and kills.

I don't however share the view that you need to have super strength weapons to have fun. And going big with design is not always the clever thing to do, not if it ends up making various things obsolete in the process which can happen easily with this design methodology if everything were to ramp up on a relative scale with weapon use. For me the fun comes from out thinking, out maneuvering or using better tactics and positioning than just facing off with others and it then simply down to who has the biggest gun. And big guns will always leave the choice of "go big or go home".

I'm the opposite in view when it comes to longevity and would not mind if overall weapon potential came down to improve longevity and not rely on the simple quick strike to take Mechs down. This mostly as it just helps to re-inforce the usefulness of applied alpha as opposed to trying to manage weapon use over time.

[MustrumRidcully]

The problem of boating is not that people do it, the problem is that there are synergy effects you can only have with boating. The new weapon modules of course add yet another synergy to boating.

It doesn't help if weapons are imbalanced, either, since that means you have (unless you don't care about your effectiveness) a limited choice of weapons you will want to use, and that lends itself very well to boating.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 15 February 2014 - 01:34 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

The other problem with boating is, it already exists in Canon. The genie was let out of the bottle when the LRM/SRM carriers were introduced.

[John MatriX82]

Sized hardpoints.. ghost heat could be lifted, boating wouldn't be a big issue anymore.

Think about limiting LRMs to the maximum possible tubes available on the mech, without the ability to fire multiple salvoes from the same section/hardpoint. Suddendly few mechs would be capable to hold more than 50-60 LRMs (besides jokes on Kintaroes that could end up to 85 but they should be limited), namely CTPL C4/A1, STK 3H, HGN 733, BLR 1S). Most of the other mechs would be limited to 40-30/15 and so on LRMs. Think about balancing a weapon system "capped" @ 50 or 60 lrms max, without dealing with boats that boats 75/80 or more LRMs.. you could find that even a single 15 is useful.

The same for all the other weapon systems. The current IS "omni" hardpoints are the roots of all the balance issues of this game, cause of the ghost heat, DHSs working @1.4x and the continuous nerfs that this game has seen since CB and not yet resolved.

And we're running into Clan weaponry soon, with this current so called "balance".

[Nick Makiaveli]

I've been thinking about this and I think boating (as well as any other meta) derives not so much from the weapon types, damage model etc. ( that only affects what weapons are used), but from the attitude prevalent among players.

To wit, "Gotta kill 'em all!!!" as opposed to winning the match. Many players care less for winning, than for padding their stats, or just getting kills. Or they think the best way to win is to get 12 kills no matter what the mode. This is evidenced in the whining you hear when you base cap in Assault or even cap win in Conquest, especially when the enemy is ahead on kills.

So they build mechs that will get them kills, and mixing weapons doesn't get you personally kills. If multiple people carried LRMs, as a lance you could deal damage and get kills, but odds are against YOU getting the kill. So people boat LRMs so as to get the kill. Or they set up a massive alpha brawler and hope to get close enough to use it.

Teamwork and balanced builds are for those evil, tryhard, pre-made losers that everyone knows are the reason the good, upstanding mechwarriors lose battles. It has nothing to with being caught by a Light when you only have LRMs loaded.

[Firewuff]

mwhighlander, on 14 February 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

Boating to an extent is fine.


The fact LRMs, Pulse Lasers, SRMs, mGuns, and streaks NEED to be boated to be effective is more tell tale that there are weapons that are severely underpowered or near non-functional (flamer, narc, etc.)

Buffing these "so bad they stink" weapon systems would simply make the game more interesting and diverse. A single weapon should be able to hold its on a mech config, and not need to be boated (LRMs, mostly)

THEY DONT STINK..... MG's are great, you just need something else to strip the armor first. Pulse are margionally better for close up mechs and SRM just are not missile AC20s any more.

SRM's are a classic example. "why would ANYONE use SRM2's" because they have a higher DPS than SSRM and can be accurately targeted at a part of a mech... i.e. they take skill where as SSRM and click and shoot... no skill at all.

Boat is not a problem, High Alpha is the problem. Always have been.

[Rhent]

The weapon design in MWO is so piss poor now that you are left with AC and PPC's if you want to be competitive. So yes people are going to boat. What do you expect when SRM/LRM are crap and Lasers were saddled with ridiculously high heat penalties?

[Skyfaller]

KAT Ayanami, on 14 February 2014 - 09:07 AM, said:

Hi,

I was wondering if one of the main reasons for boating could be the constant nerf of weapons. Most weapons are so bad now, that you need more than 1 or 2 to make an impact.

No, the reason why boating is done is because of pinpoint accuracy weapons.

The atlas is a good example of a mech that suffers terribly damage wise from its lack of pinpoint damage...too many different weapon types in one mech type and too little amount of weapon slots.

Pinpoint damage is achieved by using weapons that will all hit the same location at once or nearly at once and deliver their full damage. This is why lasers just are not 'boated' because although they DO pinpoint, they cant deliver their damage into one location. PPCs and ballistics (heavier than an MG) do and this is why they are boated.

Missiles have been nerfed into uselessness UNLESS you boat them because of the missile warning message. They are no longer 'long range' missiles because unless the target is incredibly stupid, they won't hit. A 10~ second warning @ long range that you have missiles coming in is plenty warning time to get into cover. LRM whining comes from those that boated the LRM's to punch maximum damage at MEDIUM TO SHORT RANGE ...before the enemy gets inside the LRM min range.

The macro'd AC2 and the current GAUSS gives us the perfect example of what the ballistics need to be changed to.

AC2 to AC20 need to fire their entire damage in a burst of bullets. The burst should fire off in 0.25~0.5 seconds time. That burst, as the macro AC2 shows, would usually NOT land all in one location unless the target mech was sitting still AND the mech firing was sitting still.

Gauss is perfect as it is. The charge timer forbids it from being a snap shot weapon which is what made it so devastating before the charge-up timer.

PPC's should be a small-area AOE weapon. Very similar to how LRM's or SRM's function. Of the 10 damage it does, ~4dmg should hit the aimed location and the remaining 6 damage spread out among the adjacent armor locations.

[Asmudius Heng]

Skyfaller, on 15 February 2014 - 08:40 PM, said:

No, the reason why boating is done is because of pinpoint accuracy weapons.

The atlas is a good example of a mech that suffers terribly damage wise from its lack of pinpoint damage...too many different weapon types in one mech type and too little amount of weapon slots.

Pinpoint damage is achieved by using weapons that will all hit the same location at once or nearly at once and deliver their full damage. This is why lasers just are not 'boated' because although they DO pinpoint, they cant deliver their damage into one location. PPCs and ballistics (heavier than an MG) do and this is why they are boated.

Missiles have been nerfed into uselessness UNLESS you boat them because of the missile warning message. They are no longer 'long range' missiles because unless the target is incredibly stupid, they won't hit. A 10~ second warning @ long range that you have missiles coming in is plenty warning time to get into cover. LRM whining comes from those that boated the LRM's to punch maximum damage at MEDIUM TO SHORT RANGE ...before the enemy gets inside the LRM min range.

The macro'd AC2 and the current GAUSS gives us the perfect example of what the ballistics need to be changed to.

AC2 to AC20 need to fire their entire damage in a burst of bullets. The burst should fire off in 0.25~0.5 seconds time. That burst, as the macro AC2 shows, would usually NOT land all in one location unless the target mech was sitting still AND the mech firing was sitting still.

Gauss is perfect as it is. The charge timer forbids it from being a snap shot weapon which is what made it so devastating before the charge-up timer.

PPC's should be a small-area AOE weapon. Very similar to how LRM's or SRM's function. Of the 10 damage it does, ~4dmg should hit the aimed location and the remaining 6 damage spread out among the adjacent armor locations.

Tend to agree, but i know there would be unforseen consequences ... i just WISH we could TEST this kind of change.

The worry would be that ACs lose some of its main competative advantage in its pinpoint damage, if a burst it should be a short burt much shorter than lasers!

If you cannot change convergeance then changing weapons mechanics so that aiming and positioning skill determines its pinpoint effectiveness then you add an element of skill to each weapon that needs to be applied to maximise damage and even the best wariors will not be able to control the pinpoitn 100% of the time

[Khobai]

Quote

No, the reason why boating is done is because of pinpoint accuracy weapons.

Except SRMs were boated too when they were overpowered. Boating doesnt happen because of pinpoint accuracy. Boating happens because its easier to do damage with weapons that share similar characteristics.

Boating also isnt overpowered. Its not unbalanced to have 4 PPCs hit different locations. Whats overpowered is when 4 PPCs all hit the same location. Or when all 36 SRMs do 90 base damage + insane splash damage. Boating by itself isn't a problem; its only overpowered when its combined with another broken mechanic like convergence or insane splash damage.

And yes the new weapon modules encourage boating. Instead they shouldve given bonuses for using combinations of different weapons. That wouldve helped mixed loadouts be more appealing compared to boated loadouts. Worse yet is that weapon modules are in direct conflict with ghost heat. Does PGI want us to boat or not? Which is it?

Edited by Khobai, 15 February 2014 - 09:56 PM.

[Blue Hymn]

If PGI wanted us to boat, they have a strange way of doing it.
Look at the Awesome. A Missile/Energy Boat. Look how well it's doing in the current meta.

LOOK AT IT.

[Khobai]

Quote

If PGI wanted us to boat, they have a strange way of doing it.
Look at the Awesome. A Missile/Energy Boat. Look how well it's doing in the current meta.

LOOK AT IT.

The Awesome is only bad because mech roles arnt properly enforced. The Awesome is supposed to be the best PPC using assault in the game, but its worse at it than just about every other assault mech. Its an example of too much customization leading to certain chassis become obsolete.

Having hardpoint sizes as well as mech quirks would certainly help. For example, if the Awesome was the only assault that could use three PPCs, and it got a mech quirk that made its PPCs generate 1 less heat each, and if it ignored ghost heat penalties when using 3 PPCs. You would definitely see Awesomes used more often.

[Bront]

Even in TT, boating happened a lot. Reasons why?

1) No need to split up your ammo, which in TT, was even more limited (LRM15 and LRM10? Different ammo for each launcher, same for SRMs)

2) Weapons with Similar ranges are easier to group. So, what compliments a LL better than another LL?

3) Conversely, too many weapon mixes can be problematic. LRM, LL, ML, and AC5? That's a bit of a mess range wise, heat wise, and weapon group wise. Wait, you want to throw on 2 MGs too? On TT, it's a little easier to manage, but even then, you've built a mech with no really good optimal range, as some weapons are always out of it theirs.

4) Pinpoint damage is a huge advantage, so boating pinpoint damage weapons means you can do more damage in a single shot to a single place. LRMs get around that by boating lots of LRMs. Beam energy weapons boated give some level of pinpoint that a single weapon does not.

How do you fix this? Well, it's not likely to happen in it's entirety, but it starts by fixing LRMs. LRMs require you to carry tons of ammo because they can tear though it, and each individual launcher fire is not very effective. Adjusting for spread, missile speed, and grouping could help with this (Single Launcher grouping > Multi-launcher grouping, Larger launcher grouping > smaller launcher grouping, etc). LRM boating is a big problem, as LRMs are generally otherwise underwhelming. This is unfortunate since there are plenty of effective LRM carrying mechs in TT that don't solely rely on them.

Beyond that, finding ways to make some smaller weapons a bit better will help as well. LLs aren't in a bad place, but MLs and SLs run quite hot for what they do (Both are 1 heat point higher than TT).

Ultimately, ACs are going to be boated in general, because it's simply the thing to do. With projectile speed and ammo issues, it's usually more effecitve than to Mix (Outside of occasionally AC2s and AC5s). Same with PPCs/ERPPCs.