285 replies to this topic

[Noesis]

B1zmark, on 15 February 2014 - 04:27 AM, said:

Irrelevant whoohar

SRMS still have hit detections issues hence broken.

Lasers and pulsed under perform vs Ballistics and Pulses are nigh on pointless to equip with their heat issues.

Alpha PER TON does equate to overall damage output or damage potential, that's just lying with statistics.

And Mediums are built to operate more as damage over time rather than large ALPHA anyhow, where larger Mechs do much better. Those ALPHA per ton weapons then having to be balanced with engines, armour and heat sinks to operate effectively.

But they do suffer from being over sized and easily taken out with less armour than heavier Mechs.

Mediums simply have the least use and the mech with the least effective roles still and have for months.

This does not mean I find them useless either, it just means as per usual on MWO there are better choices to go with.

Edited by Noesis, 15 February 2014 - 07:08 AM.

[Reitrix]

Noesis, on 15 February 2014 - 07:07 AM, said:

SRMS still have hit detections issues hence broken.

Lasers and pulsed under perform vs Ballistics and Pulses are nigh on pointless to equip with their heat issues.

Alpha PER TON does equate to overall damage output or damage potential, that's just lying with statistics.

And Mediums are built to operate more as damage over time rather than large ALPHA anyhow, where larger Mechs do much better. Those ALPHA per ton weapons then having to be balanced with engines, armour and heat sinks to operate effectively.

But they do suffer from being over sized and easily taken out with less armour than heavier Mechs.

Mediums simply have the least use and the mech with the least effective roles still and have for months.

This does not mean I find them useless either, it just means as per usual on MWO there are better choices to go with.

If they have hit detection issues, I must just be super damned lucky, since i do rather well in my 4x ASRM4 Griffin.

[FupDup]

This is yet another thread where somebody makes the argument of "I got kills with it! I had a high score! That makes it able to compete against the best mechs in the game, amirite!" And like all other threads of the same type, this one is incorrect. Doing well with something does not make it able to go head to head with the best mechs and strategies in the game. The way you judge the effectiveness of something is to compare all of its strengths and weaknesses against the strengths and weaknesses of the most powerful loadouts in the game driven by the best pilots in the game. Not "I got a high score, that makes it good!" If that was the case, my Streaktaro would be a destroyer of worlds and my Thunderbolt would be the king of mount tryhard. But they're not. They're sub-par.


At the end of the day, even the king of all mediums in the game--the Shadow Hawk--is inferior to heavies and assaults in almost every way excluding raw speed. And even then, the speed difference isn't usually that big unless you're seriously over-engined like a Streaktaro; in which case you are kind of gimping yourself. And speed in general just isn't that useful. This game is about wiping out the enemy team as brutally and quickly as you can. Mobility only matters in a select few situations, whereas armor and firepower are always a necessity. If you can go something between 60 and 80 kph you'll be fine in most battles, especially if you have jump jets.

Edited by FupDup, 15 February 2014 - 07:16 AM.

[Artgathan]

Mediums aren't maneuverable enough, or Heavies and Assaults are too maneuverable: http://mwomercs.com/...-class-balance/ (read the whole thing).

Also, if you take a gander in the mechlab, a CN9-A with a stock engine and a Victor with a stock engine have the same acceleration / deceleration profile.

Finally, a personal anecdote does not an argument make.

[Reitrix]

FupDup, on 15 February 2014 - 07:11 AM, said:

This is yet another thread where somebody makes the argument of "I got kills with it! I had a high score! That makes it able to compete against the best mechs in the game, amirite!" And like all other threads of the same type, this one is incorrect. Doing well with something does not make it able to go head to head with the best mechs and strategies in the game. The way you judge the effectiveness of something is to compare all of its strengths and weaknesses against the strengths and weaknesses of the most powerful loadouts in the game driven by the best pilots in the game. Not "I got a high score, that makes it good!" If that was the case, my Streaktaro would be a destroyer of worlds and my Thunderbolt would be the king of mount tryhard. But they're not. They're sub-par.


At the end of the day, even the best medium in the game--the Shadow Hawk--is inferior to heavies and assaults in almost every way excluding raw speed. And even then, the speed difference isn't usually that big unless you're seriously over-engined like a Streaktaro; in which case you are kind of gimping yourself. And speed in general just isn't that useful. This game is about wiping out the enemy team as brutally as you can. Mobility only matters in a select few situations, whereas armor and firepower are always a necessity. If you can go something between 60 and 80 kph you'll be fine in most battles, especially if you have jump jets.

Oh, sorry. I'll stop being effective in my non-meta gimpy 3 PPC AWS-9M.






Also, who was it that decided which pilots are "the best"? What is the Metric used to determine this? K/D? W/L?

[Noesis]

Reitrix, on 15 February 2014 - 07:11 AM, said:

If they have hit detection issues, I must just be super damned lucky, since i do rather well in my 4x ASRM4 Griffin.

Really happy for you. But you aren't everybody are you?

People have been reporting the issue of SRM hit detection. It is held in abeyance with a view of PGI trying to schedule some time to look at these things. Amongst all the new stuff they have to do to make themselves look like they can deliver.

[FupDup]

Reitrix, on 15 February 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

Oh, sorry. I'll stop being effective in my non-meta gimpy 3 PPC AWS-9M.

Now imagine the apocalyptic campaign of genocidal annihilation you could wage if you were using a mech better than the AWS.

Reitrix, on 15 February 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

Also, who was it that decided which pilots are "the best"? What is the Metric used to determine this? K/D? W/L?

That is tricky, but you can at least determine who is "fairly good" by watching how consistently certain people can carry their team and what they equip. The point is, you've gotta be going against people who can aim and who don't use bad weapons like Flamers or LB 10-X.

[Noesis]

Reitrix, on 15 February 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

Oh, sorry. I'll stop being effective in my non-meta gimpy 3 PPC AWS-9M.

Which is more anecdotal evidence that proves nothing but simply assumes a truth since it is theirs. Nor does it deny that their are problems with the use of Mediums or more so a problem with the over abundance of Assaults using AC/PPC mix where mediums cannot present any real opposition to due to this representation being so many and blobbed together.

Roll on tonnage limits and pilots considering having to pilot something that doesn't need to use the biggest and baddest options to play this game.

Edited by Noesis, 15 February 2014 - 07:23 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

speed in general just isn't that useful

Speed can be useful but the thing about speed is theres basically three categories for speed (assault speed, heavy/medium speed, and light speed). Mediums dont go fast enough to get out of being in the same category as heavies which is part of the problem.

For mediums to be in their own speed category they need to have a max speed that falls directly in between that of lights and heavies, instead of just being slightly faster than heavies. Of course its more complicated than just raising the engine cap because of engine weight: so the best solution IMO would just be to give all weight classes unique skill trees and give mediums a passive speed boost through their skill tree (i.e. speed tweak II).

Quote

Oh, sorry. I'll stop being effective in my non-meta gimpy 3 PPC AWS-9M.

Since when are PPCs non-meta? Anything running PPCs or ACs is a meta build lol. Its just not a top tier meta build.

Edited by Khobai, 15 February 2014 - 07:29 AM.

[Reitrix]

FupDup, on 15 February 2014 - 07:20 AM, said:

Now imagine the apocalyptic campaign of genocidal annihilation you could wage if you were using a mech better than the AWS.



That is tricky, but you can at least determine who is "fairly good" by watching how consistently certain people can carry their team and what they equip. The point is, you've gotta be going against people who can aim and who don't use bad weapons like Flamers or LB 10-X.

I happen to own all of the 'better Mechs', and even tried out the metabuilds. In the end, i didn't enjoy that over much, and wasn't all that effective as a result.
I always keep falling back onto my quirky builds in 'mechs no one seems to like.

It's my belief that any skilled pilot can make his/her favorite 'Mech work for them. Every 'Mech plays a bit differently. Funnily enough, I cannot for the life of me get the exact same PPC build i use for my 9M to work in my Battlemaster.

[FupDup]

Noesis, on 15 February 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

...
Roll on tonnage limits and pilots considering having to pilot something that doesn't need to consider the biggest and baddest options to play this game.

I'm not so sure that TL are the final solution to this problem. People are still going to max out their available tonnage. But instead of 1200 tons per team, it'll be something like I dunno 720 tons per team. People will still max out their firepower and alpha-strike for the available weight. TL don't make players want to drop with less weight than the enemy team, because TL don't solve the underlying issue that the best way to win this game is with brute force. You might reduce the level of brute force, and reduce the health pool of both teams, but alphas will still win the day like they always have.

Victors will rule the assault roost with an iron first because they pack the firepower of a Highlander with more speed, similar durability, and with TL they will also take up the least weight. 60 tons heavies will be even more inferior to the 55 ton Shawk because they have worse performance and they take up more of the team's weight. The same goes for Cicadas versus Jenners (and maybe Firestarters?). And mechs like the Locust will still suck, because they waste a team slot that could be used on a mech that is effective. Shadow Hawks will undoubtably proliferate if not become a new FoTM, and can actually pack an alpha comparable to many larger mechs (ERPPC + AC/20).


What we need is the fabled Role Warfare. The maps and game modes need to be set up in a way such that the strengths of mechs under 65 tons can truly shine, and that a mech can be valuable to its team without packing a super-high alpha. A modest little Commando, for example, should be just as valuable to its team as a Highlander, but obviously with different strengths and weaknesses brought to the table. You should be able to say "Hmmm, in this situation some mechs with mobility would benefit our team more than a bunch of fatties, let's take some mediums and lights."

Edited by FupDup, 15 February 2014 - 07:32 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

I'm not so sure that TL are the final solution to this problem. People are still going to max out their available tonnage.

Tonnage limits create other problems unfortunately. Because tonnage limits say that more tonnage is better. And we all know thats not the case. Example: a highlander is way better than an atlas, but a tonnage limited system says the atlas is better.

I agree role warfare is the way to go. Every mech should be able to contribute equally (but differently) to winning. Even a lowly locust should have a role to play. Adding role warfare is a complicated affair though: requiring new gamemodes, new skill trees, unique perks for mechs, and a completely overhauled module system. I just dont see it happening ever.

The best stopgap measure to buff mediums would be to fix SRMs and nerf pinpoint damage. That would give mediums their hitting power back and increase their life expectancy.

Edited by Khobai, 15 February 2014 - 07:44 AM.

[FupDup]

Reitrix, on 15 February 2014 - 07:29 AM, said:

I happen to own all of the 'better Mechs', and even tried out the metabuilds. In the end, i didn't enjoy that over much, and wasn't all that effective as a result.
I always keep falling back onto my quirky builds in 'mechs no one seems to like.

It's my belief that any skilled pilot can make his/her favorite 'Mech work for them. Every 'Mech plays a bit differently. Funnily enough, I cannot for the life of me get the exact same PPC build i use for my 9M to work in my Battlemaster.

Oh, there's no doubt in my mind that somebody with experience can make a sub-par mech wreck face. I've done well with idiotic builds like a Battlemaster with 4ML + ERPPC + AC/10, or a 5ML + 2LRM10 Thunderbolt, 2-3 ML + ERPPC + 2-3SRM4-6 Griffins, or doing absurdly high damage and getting a good number of kills with a Streak Kintaro. But I know that at the end of the day, I know that the shiny new Victors I bought a month ago are simply better than those mechs because the VTR is a tanky beast that can float like a butterfly and string like an orbital nuke.

[Joseph Mallan]

Medium, middle of the road, average, balanced. How do yo umake Medium as good as large? Or as fast as small? Folks forget what mediums are, the best worst choice.

[ByteHacker]

I'd say that it's more of a style of play. You can't run in from the flanks of and blow off all the armour on the back of a Stalker throwing PPCs in one alpha then conveniently waltz out of the hell storm with the centre torso barely touched in heavier mechs. Light mechs could, but it would take multiple runs to achieve the same effect.

Sure I'd wish that SRMs' would be buffed even further making my job much easier but at the end of the day, No other mech I have piloted can accomplish the same amount of wonders that the humble centurion can.

Also, nothing is more satisfying than obliterating cheese PPC+AC snipers in a one on one brawl while barely having your centre torso scratched (But have either one or both your arms blown off.)

Edited by ByteHacker, 15 February 2014 - 07:43 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Medium, middle of the road, average, balanced. How do yo umake Medium as good as large? Or as fast as small? Folks forget what mediums are, the best worst choice.

Mediums arnt middle of the road though. A light normally goes 150 kph. A heavy normally goes 70-80kph. So the normal speed of a medium should be 110-115kph. But most mediums go like 90-100kph tops. Same with scaling... a 50 ton trebuchet should be directly in between a jenner and jagermech for size. But the trebuchet is as tall as an awesome. Mediums are below average in most regards. If mediums were purely average in all areas theyd probably be fine (especially if they were given an extra module slot to represent mediums being the most versatile weight class).

Basically mediums need:
-strong SRMs to be a threat to heavier mechs
-better longevity (nerf to pinpoint damage)
-better versatility than heavies (more speed? more module slots?)
-something to offset the terrible scaling (unique quirks for mechs?)

Edited by Khobai, 15 February 2014 - 07:56 AM.

[GrandLocomon]

They really shouldn't have made mediums so big. I don't play mediums much, but my [less than] 2c is that the unnecessarily large size is what hurts the most. Why are all the 55 ton mechs pretty much the same size as an assault? Mech scaling could seriously do with an overhaul across the board.

[Prezimonto]

The thing is mediums only really make sense in an economic picture. They're plentiful, because they're cost effective and versatile, not because they're great at anything else.

When a nation can afford to field 2 mediums for each heavy, and perhaps 4 for each assault, and those mediums need less support crew, have more interchangeable parts, are being produced by more factories, and can fill a wider array of roles, you have a really good reasons for medium mechs vs. heavier outside of specific situations.

But we don't have any of that, we've got the specific situation of "kill the other team" is better 90% or more of the time in matches of any type.

Market based battle value that works off inflation due to use and supply due to the economy (abundance of medium mechs vs. lack of heavies and assaults) would help make them more viable in the match.

If games actually gave a good reason for taking side points, like if we fought battles in series and complete resupply depended on securing ammo or parts depots, in addition to the objective(s)... and if you fail to control those depots long enough you start with a little less than ideal, ready to go mechs... then mediums would be more attractive as a higher speed, but with actual firepower to take and hold side areas.

Making it harder to achieve perfect, pin-point convergence would also help.

I LOVE the idea of mech specific skill trees as well... Give mediums speed tweak 2.0, so they can actually get up to 110 to 130.

There's lots of things that could be done to help medium mechs. We're getting, as usual, the dog of the bunch that will have a lot more unintended consequences... tonnage limits.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 15 February 2014 - 07:48 AM, said:

Mediums arnt middle of the road though. A light normally goes 150 kph. A heavy normally goes 70-80kph. So the normal speed of a medium should be 110-115kph. But most mediums go like 90-100kph tops. Same with scaling... a 50 ton trebuchet should be directly in between a jenner and jagermech for size. But the trebuchet is as tall as an awesome. Mediums are below average in most regards. If mediums were purely average in all areas theyd probably be fine (especially if they were given an extra module slot to represent mediums being the most versatile weight class).

Basically mediums need:
-strong SRMs to be a threat to heavier mechs
-better longevity (nerf to pinpoint damage)
-better versatility than heavies (more speed? more module slots?)
-something to offset the terrible scaling (unique quirks for mechs?)

Actually Unmodified Lights averaged 97KpH(6/9 Avearge) An Average Medium Ran at 86KpH(5/8) and a Average Heavy 64KpH (4/6). Top end Lights Should be much faster than a Medium we have in this game now. Exception Cicada.

Giving Stronger SRMs would make my Atlas more poweful vs Mediums. Please for the love of gob end pin point convergence!!

I don't disagree mediums should have a higher top speed than heavies, but from a Shadow Hawk to a Dragon that difference should be kinda minimal

Fixing the scaling would be best but after than Quirks could help.

[Khobai]

Quote

Actually Unmodified Lights averaged 97KpH(6/9 Avearge)

97kph is fine for tabletop but too slow in MWO