285 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 15 February 2014 - 08:32 AM, said:

97kph is fine for tabletop but too slow in MWO

Its to slow for a Light I agree.

[Khobai]

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Its to slow for a Light I agree.

its too slow for a medium too. 97kph is barely faster than most heavies. even victors go 80kph.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 15 February 2014 - 08:39 AM, said:

its too slow for a medium too. 97kph is barely faster than most heavies. even victors go 80kph.

True cause a Griffin top speed without Speed boosts is 106KpH

The majority of the Mediums we have so far are the slower end of the wading pool Kho, Centurions were not suposed to be lightning fast! Hunchbacks were close quarter brawlers and did not need to be fast either. But Imagin the Wraith when It is introduced... can it be introduced since we have to have 3 Models to get a mech??? It would be a shame if it is banned cause of a lack of Versions!

[Onlystolen]

I didnt realise there was a problem with mediums...

Khobai, on 15 February 2014 - 08:39 AM, said:

its too slow for a medium too. 97kph is barely faster than most heavies. even victors go 80kph.

Argument invalid, most 80+ kph victors have sub satisfactory loadouts.

[Tangelis]

Khobai, on 15 February 2014 - 07:06 AM, said:

Since SRMs were nerfed. SRMs were low weight weapons that allowed mediums to run standard engines and still pack a punch (Centurion with three SRM6s used to be beast). Now that SRMs are absolutely terrible in order to do well you have to take multiple ballistics or PPCs which requires running XL in order to go fast enough. Because if youre not going at least 90kph theres no point to playing a medium IMO... since heavies can get upto 80-85kph easily enough.

This is not being creative, it's being the usual suspect. There are a lot of builds on these boards for Medium mechs with standard engines moving in excess of 90kph with solid performance.

Edited by Tangelis, 15 February 2014 - 08:56 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

Why do people keep doing this? You have NO concept of what game management means when you come to the boards and boast about a game like this. You did 1000 damage. That means that you hit a lot of crap that you shouldn't have hit. The external armor on the head of a mech is set at 18 points with the internal structure equally 15. That means that, AT MOST, you should be doing 33 x 12 = 396 damage. You did almost 3x that amount which means that you were hitting all manners of locations doing absolutely nothing. You were a poor marksman that was ignored for the entirety of the match, either due to not seeing you as a dangerous enough target to focus down or simply because the opposing team was bad. Either way, you put up good numbers which, due to PGI's bad end game coding, rewarded you for your game play. That doesn't mean, though, that you did well. Doing half of that damage and getting 5-6 kills along with 5-6 assists meant that you did something. Getting several savior kills or base defense kills means that you did something. Completing objectives means that you did something. Spraying and praying in the face of complete failure gets you this:

<golf clap>

[NRP]

I'm not convinced there is that much wrong with Mediums at the moment. It's true that Centurions and Hunchbacks aren't the top dogs anymore, but my Cicadas, Blackjacks, Kintaros, and Shadowhawks seem to do just fine.

What exactly do people expect out of a Medium - to be able to solo any mech in the game in any situation? Want to see where Mediums shine? Run in a pack.

[Joseph Mallan]

Trauglodyte, on 15 February 2014 - 09:03 AM, said:

Why do people keep doing this? You have NO concept of what game management means when you come to the boards and boast about a game like this. You did 1000 damage. That means that you hit a lot of crap that you shouldn't have hit. The external armor on the head of a mech is set at 18 points with the internal structure equally 15. That means that, AT MOST, you should be doing 33 x 12 = 396 damage. You did almost 3x that amount which means that you were hitting all manners of locations doing absolutely nothing. You were a poor marksman that was ignored for the entirety of the match, either due to not seeing you as a dangerous enough target to focus down or simply because the opposing team was bad. Either way, you put up good numbers which, due to PGI's bad end game coding, rewarded you for your game play. That doesn't mean, though, that you did well. Doing half of that damage and getting 5-6 kills along with 5-6 assists meant that you did something. Getting several savior kills or base defense kills means that you did something. Completing objectives means that you did something. Spraying and praying in the face of complete failure gets you this:

<golf clap>

Dude...
You need a nap?

[Noesis]

NRP, on 15 February 2014 - 09:05 AM, said:

I'm not convinced there is that much wrong with Mediums at the moment. It's true that Centurions and Hunchbacks aren't the top dogs anymore, but my Cicadas, Blackjacks, Kintaros, and Shadowhawks seem to do just fine.

What exactly do people expect out of a Medium - to be able to solo any mech in the game in any situation? Want to see where Mediums shine? Run in a pack.

Ah but this is the point you see, it isn't that some of us are saying they are overall useless only less useful than other choices.

It isn't that we can't accept the medium role or its place in the pecking order, it is that in a game that is over populated with assaults using ranged mega meta the medium doesn't have much of an opportunity to do its thing.

So be careful with slapping a label that we want mediums to equalise with larger classes, that isn't the case, at least not for me. But for the roles they are ideally suited for they need an opportunity to do so. This cannot be done in the "go big or go home" Meta we have at the moment. That and the spectrum of weapons more ideally suited to Mediums under perform in comparison to the multiple mix use of ACs/PPCs.

So please don't push the imbalance to extremes in determining where people consider mediums should be. It is simply that from a choice perspective in the current game play there is no real desirable reason to run one over other choices for relative performance. The above reasons mentioned in this thread contributing to why Mediums struggle.

Edited by Noesis, 15 February 2014 - 09:26 AM.

[Noesis]

Onlystolen, on 15 February 2014 - 08:51 AM, said:

Argument invalid, most 80+ kph victors have sub satisfactory loadouts.

Still better than a medium though. And with some mediums being about the same size but less armour, probably less heat management with their larger engine slotting in extra DHS well. Might as well run a fast Dragon Slayer than most mediums.

[Trauglodyte]

I'd say, NRP, that they expect to go nearly Light speed while having near Heavy damage output. Then, when they can't achieve that, they claim broken design.

In defense of that, I will concede that PGI's ignorant max engine is one of the things that it really causing imbalances. All Lights should not hit150 and Heavies, plus some assaults, are going too fast. TT at64 kph shouldn't equate to 80+ in MWO.

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Dude...
You need a nap?

Sorry, Mal. I get a little fired up, sometimes. E-bragging just grinds my nerves.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 15 February 2014 - 09:36 AM.

[YueFei]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 February 2014 - 07:40 AM, said:

Medium, middle of the road, average, balanced. How do yo umake Medium as good as large? Or as fast as small? Folks forget what mediums are, the best worst choice.

Strategic speed advantage. How did Lawrence of Arabia defeat his enemies despite never having the firepower to take them head-on?

Your HBK runs into an enemy Assault or Heavy mech that you can't take head-on? Leave and attack a different objective.

Unfortunately PGI seems to hate this concept, look at what they did with the cap points on Alpine in Conquest mode! I mean WTF?

[YueFei]

Guys, due to "ELO", almost *any* loadout you choose will be able to perform decently, with occasional games of brilliance. The matchmaker is trying to make sure you have a good time and perform decently.

I could run a crappy mech and consistently drag my team down until the matchmaker finds a way for me to win.

If you really want to know where you stand, and you genuinely have the courage to do it, pit yourself against the best pilots in this game, the guys who play competitive 12s and win tournaments. At least with those guys, you know "ELO" has nothing to do with their success.

[East Indy]

NRP, on 15 February 2014 - 09:05 AM, said:

What exactly do people expect out of a Medium - to be able to solo any mech in the game in any situation?

More or less. What remains of the alpha-meta intimidates a lot of players, and social pressure discourages more.

[Rebas Kradd]

Khobai, on 15 February 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

if the damage spreads out its a non-issue.

If the damage spreads out, there is no way to target specific components on a mech and the game becomes even more of a "shoot the CT" meta than it already is. Losing convergence only moves us further from BT.

[Joseph Mallan]

YueFei, on 15 February 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

Strategic speed advantage. How did Lawrence of Arabia defeat his enemies despite never having the firepower to take them head-on?

Your HBK runs into an enemy Assault or Heavy mech that you can't take head-on? Leave and attack a different objective.

Unfortunately PGI seems to hate this concept, look at what they did with the cap points on Alpine in Conquest mode! I mean WTF?

Cause a Hunchback could not out run many Assaults or Heavies. they had the same speed profile. AS a base 4/6 Hunchbacks could not be faster than their bigger adversary. The Mech You are trying to have is not in the game yet.

[Mcgral18]

Rebas Kradd, on 15 February 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

If the damage spreads out, there is no way to target specific components on a mech and the game becomes even more of a "shoot the CT" meta than it already is. Losing convergence only moves us further from BT.

False, you can still target but there will be a skill in torso twisting and being able to spread that damage, increasing TTK, assuming you know what to do. Smaller mechs will of course benefit more due to smaller hitboxes.

[YueFei]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 February 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

Cause a Hunchback could not out run many Assaults or Heavies. they had the same speed profile. AS a base 4/6 Hunchbacks could not be faster than their bigger adversary. The Mech You are trying to have is not in the game yet.

Oh, cuz everybody runs their mechs with stock loadout in this game, right?

[Joseph Mallan]

Rebas Kradd, on 15 February 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

If the damage spreads out, there is no way to target specific components on a mech and the game becomes even more of a "shoot the CT" meta than it already is. Losing convergence only moves us further from BT.

Nope you get pin point aim firing single shot. One weapon at a time, EXCEPT lasers... No balistic drop, no recoil just a really hot flashlight! That should converge well, everything else... I have never shot 50 rounds through the same hole on a target. Some deviation would be realistic and actually kinda cool as well.

YueFei, on 15 February 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

Oh, cuz everybody runs their mechs with stock loadout in this game, right?

You wanna fast Hunch you're going to give up something, So what is it, cause you would not be happy to try and flank most of my Mechs. I have a 6/9/12 Berzerker that would like to see your Hunchie on a dark street!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 15 February 2014 - 10:57 AM.

[Khobai]

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Centurions were not suposed to be lightning fast!

Doesnt matter what they were supposed to be in tabletop. Its what they are in MWO that matters.

Jagermechs werent supposed to have max armor or use two AC/20s in tabletop... but they do in MWO.

Other mechs arnt subject to tabletop limitations, so why should medium mechs be? Medium mechs need to go faster. Tabletop restrictions need to be abandoned for game balance.

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If the damage spreads out, there is no way to target specific components on a mech and the game becomes even more of a "shoot the CT" meta than it already is. Losing convergence only moves us further from BT.

That makes no sense. The whole point of adding damage spread is to make pinpointing the CT impossible. With proper implementation of damage spread, any attempt to shoot the CT will just result in some damage to the CT and the rest of the damage being spread to other locations.

Game mechanics that have loopholes or can be circumvented are BAD game mechanics. That is why ghost heat is a bad game mechanic. However PPCs doing splash damage is a good game mechanic because no matter how much you hit someone in the CT, it still wont do the full 10 damage to their CT. You cant defeat that game mechanic no matter how hard you try.

Edited by Khobai, 15 February 2014 - 11:23 AM.