57 replies to this topic

[Mavairo]

First step: bring back SRMs. Those of us that were around back when SRMs weren't so wonky that you could fire a full 12 of them point blank into someone's chest and see Zero Damage dealt, can probably tell you how much more prevalent brawling was.

Second step: PPCs they shouldn't do Pinpoint Damage Maybe 60 percent of their damage should be dealt to one spot on a given mech and the other 40 percent is spread to surrounding pieces. That's one half the single biggest reason why the HGN and Victor have become the monsters that they are.

Third Step: Jump Jets. There are quite a few things that need to be addressed with Jump Jets. Primarily, is the one we can all agree on. You get far far too much Jump for a single Jump Jet. I'd go so far as to argue that what you get from your first Jump Jet is more like what you should get after 3 jump jets have been equipped. This gives you way way too many tons to play with on the bigger mechs, for far too little opportunity cost.

Second in regard to JJs, is the insane agility boost Heavies, and Assaults gain from using them to assist in their turning ability.

Third, is that there should be some kind of deflection on Descent when it comes to firing. Jump Sniping is not difficult in the slightest to do. Even Laser JJ Sniping is fairly easy to pull off.

[Drakenn]

Honestly, I don't see much of a problem. I run mostly brawling builds and do just fine. It's all about knowing when to engage. (mostly using SRMs, btw. They aren't perfect, but they are EXTREMELY viable).

[Mavairo]

Drakenn, on 15 February 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

Honestly, I don't see much of a problem. I run mostly brawling builds and do just fine. It's all about knowing when to engage. (mostly using SRMs, btw. They aren't perfect, but they are EXTREMELY viable).

I can run a brawler well (one of my best mechs is a Slasher/Calvary raider Dragon, and my other mech of choice is a Thunderbolt...Phoenix variant loaded with SRM6s), that being said, my Dragonslayer is a much much much easier mech to pilot and get the same if not better results out of, with a great deal less risk involved.

[MekShred]

I would have to agree with Drakenn, I run a lot of builds with SRM's and what some people would call "useless" weapons. I cannot recall the last time I was killed by a "poptart" and if you think it is bad now you must have not been around about 8-10 months ago when it was actually the meta.

[Jman5]

I would rather they just straight up reduce the damage a PPC does. Take it down from 10 to 8. PGI didn't have a problem nerfing missile damage numbers, I don't see why they hesitate nerfing the PPC damage.

[MekShred]

PPC's are fine, you pay the price in high heat and pay a higher price in ghost heat if you get greedy of trigger happy and there is a 90m min range! Maybe we need to STOP nerfing everything. If we nerf everything down to such a simple level we may as well remove all the weapons in the game and everyone gets to use med lasers. If everyone used meds there would be no more complaining... except for those complaining it is boring now, which are most likely the same people who complained saying "nerf this" and "nerf that".

[Mavairo]

MekShred, on 15 February 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

PPC's are fine, you pay the price in high heat and pay a higher price in ghost heat if you get greedy of trigger happy and there is a 90m min range! Maybe we need to STOP nerfing everything. If we nerf everything down to such a simple level we may as well remove all the weapons in the game and everyone gets to use med lasers. If everyone used meds there would be no more complaining... except for those complaining it is boring now, which are most likely the same people who complained saying "nerf this" and "nerf that".

Fine huh?
Yeah they're so fine that on the most dominant mechs, they are usually present in 1 to 2 numbers coupled with ACs.
that 90 m min range isn't even a factor if you're above the /facerolling ques level. Especially since you're going to probably have Med Lasers as secondary energy weapons for close range engagements on the odd moment where you end up sub 90. All ghost heat did was bring people off of more than 2 PPC builds, to putting 2 PPCs with an AC instead of more PPCs.

PPCs need an adjustment, to help Laser weapons out. Lasers themselves are fine, aside from the silly ghost heat penalties that they have.

Pulse Lasers need a heat adjustment buff, and a shorter damage period to fix them, but that's another thread entirely.

SRMs are busted. Ping doesn't matter, (mine is up 40 most of the time and I've shot targets that had sub 40 pings). They just whiff entirely from time to time when they shouldn't especially considering that they are Aiming Weapons.

Edited by Mavairo, 15 February 2014 - 07:26 PM.

[Mcgral18]

MekShred, on 15 February 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

PPC's are fine, you pay the price in high heat and pay a higher price in ghost heat if you get greedy of trigger happy and there is a 90m min range! Maybe we need to STOP nerfing everything. If we nerf everything down to such a simple level we may as well remove all the weapons in the game and everyone gets to use med lasers. If everyone used meds there would be no more complaining... except for those complaining it is boring now, which are most likely the same people who complained saying "nerf this" and "nerf that".

Well, as a matter of fact weapons are doing for the most part over 3 times their TT damage and heat values, and we've only gotten doubled armor. As such, almost all weapons could stand for a few nerfs damage wise. Heat dissipation needs to be increased as well, since heat didn't get reduced but the RoF is for the most part 2.5 times as fast, so 3 recycles for PPCs and AC20s instead of 1 compared to TT. So, 3 times the damage and 3 times the heat. Doubled armor and 1.0 dissipation...that math doesn't add up.

As such, high cap and low dissipation leads to alphas rather than DPS, since we just can't make a half decent heat neutral build. (6ML, 50SHS sound nice? Perhaps not.)

As it stands, it's the combination of pinpoint and frontloaded thats really breaking the armor system. 30 pts of damage over 3 components? Not so bad. 30 damage all applied to a single location, critically injured in anthing under 50 tons.
3 DoT weapons applied to a single location, you can twist to manually spread that damage, not catastrophic.

Edited by Mcgral18, 15 February 2014 - 07:43 PM.

[CheeseThief]

Giving the smaller, faster chassis their brawling weapon back will go a long way towards reigning in the poptart and snipe meta.

So basically fix SRM's and solve all the worlds problems.

[Blue Hymn]

I have mixed feelings.

I often run an Awesome, and the amount of meta that I've been encountering has been bad as of late. I can agree with how Victors/Highlanders and the essential poptarts need to be taken care of, and the pinpoint convergence does become a serious issue when every mech is throwing 30 pinpoint damage towards your body in general. Hell, just having three different mechs firing off at a single target with 30 pinpoint damage to a fully armored center torso of an Atlas for example, can almost completely strip it of its armor. And that's an assault class. Imagine throwing that much damage to smaller mechs.

There's a lot of problem the given issue. Personally, I would target the jump jets as the most problematic subject, as sniping in midair with massive firepower just doesn't sit well with me. Personally, if I have the ability to do some gameplay balancing, if you're using jump jets you would a.) Have a portion of weapons be disabled while in midair, as you're directing energy to the jets in general. PPCs and ACs would not work until both legs land on the ground, as the pilot should be more concentrated on keeping his mech upright after a jump. Medium lasers and lighter energy weapons would work, as they require less energy than the more intensive large calibers, such as the Large Lasers. Perhaps lights can get away with it easier as they're lighter in tonnage and perhaps require less energy for jump jetting. Less mass = less energy for jumping, right?

Also, if you get damaged while in the air, you have a certain percentage failure of falling on your face, which would require your mech to try and stand up afterwards. I'm sorry, but taking a gauss rifle to the body while in midair for example - I don't care what the game says, but inertia is gonna throw your balance out the window while you're jump jetting. The more damage you receive while in midair, the higher the percentage of you landing on your face.

If these suggestions are implemented - if anyone in PGI actually cares - this is what we'll probably see:
A fight starts. Some mechs try to jumpjet, but are limited in the weapon usages. Most of the weapons fired while jump jetting will be medium lasers or lighter. A few defenders fire at the jumping mechs. Lasers do not do much in changing the mech's landing, but someone lands a good shot with ppcs or an ac5 and higher. Mech lands on the ground, but fails to keep itself upright as it tumbles to its face or something, requiring extra time to pull itself up and get back into the fight.
Fighting continues, with more consideration on movement and positioning until one side wins. Closure.

Then this will probably result in jump jets being used more for positioning rather than poptarting, and perhaps a decline in everyone using poptarting as a means for tactics. This is under the assumption that pinpoint convergence is here to stay, if PGI doesn't want to change their stance on it. The suggestion above can be haggled and debated on, but there's the idea.

[627]

splash damage... not sure you are aware, but do you why we have no splash damage for missiles anymore?

they hit harder the smaller the mechs were. Ah, splat cats. those times...

[Bagheera]

Drakenn, on 15 February 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

Honestly, I don't see much of a problem. I run mostly brawling builds and do just fine. It's all about knowing when to engage. (mostly using SRMs, btw. They aren't perfect, but they are EXTREMELY viable).

That's pretty generous, unless you have a pretty good and very consistent ping. Start getting over 100-150 and they get dodgy pretty fast. Below 100 and they seem mostly reliable. "Extremely" is probably generous in any case.

[Lightfoot]

First off, if you (all) don't want jjet firing of weapons petition PGI to just block the ability. Expect nerd-rage though.

If not, jjet ridge humpers already have a variety of critical weaknesses to block the tactic. LRMs or brawlers for instance.

It's not an over-powered tactic and I don't see why good tactics that players learn to do well must always be nerfed. I have no problems taking down jjet snipers, but you have to analyze the situation, know their number, and not enter their killing field. There are some places on maps which are too protected like the big hilltop in front of the mountains on Alpine, but they can only camp that in Skirmish.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Mavairo, on 15 February 2014 - 07:26 PM, said:

SRMs are busted. Ping doesn't matter, (mine is up 40 most of the time and I've shot targets that had sub 40 pings). They just whiff entirely from time to time when they shouldn't especially considering that they are Aiming Weapons.

What you see on your screen isn't always what really happened. Pings can and do jump around, so often times you see a hit that was really a miss, since you client rendered what it thought was the enemy position when he had actually moved.

FTR sometimes you will see a miss, but still score damage. I know this for a fact since I've fired at a mech, missed and then still get an Assist when he dies. Same thing, he moved, it hadn't yet registered on my screen, etc.

[Joseph Mallan]

MekShred, on 15 February 2014 - 06:46 PM, said:

I would have to agree with Drakenn, I run a lot of builds with SRM's and what some people would call "useless" weapons. I cannot recall the last time I was killed by a "poptart" and if you think it is bad now you must have not been around about 8-10 months ago when it was actually the meta.

When what was the Meta? 8-10 months ago I thought the Meta was PPC Stalkers!

[Sheraf]

Mavairo, on 15 February 2014 - 06:35 PM, said:

First step: bring back SRMs. Those of us that were around back when SRMs weren't so wonky that you could fire a full 12 of them point blank into someone's chest and see Zero Damage dealt, can probably tell you how much more prevalent brawling was.

Second step: PPCs they shouldn't do Pinpoint Damage Maybe 60 percent of their damage should be dealt to one spot on a given mech and the other 40 percent is spread to surrounding pieces. That's one half the single biggest reason why the HGN and Victor have become the monsters that they are.

Third Step: Jump Jets. There are quite a few things that need to be addressed with Jump Jets. Primarily, is the one we can all agree on. You get far far too much Jump for a single Jump Jet. I'd go so far as to argue that what you get from your first Jump Jet is more like what you should get after 3 jump jets have been equipped. This gives you way way too many tons to play with on the bigger mechs, for far too little opportunity cost.

Second in regard to JJs, is the insane agility boost Heavies, and Assaults gain from using them to assist in their turning ability.

Third, is that there should be some kind of deflection on Descent when it comes to firing. Jump Sniping is not difficult in the slightest to do. Even Laser JJ Sniping is fairly easy to pull off.

Buff LRM damage back to before the spiral Artemis, they will be taken care of

[Dalberon]

Drakenn, on 15 February 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

Honestly, I don't see much of a problem. I run mostly brawling builds and do just fine. It's all about knowing when to engage. (mostly using SRMs, btw. They aren't perfect, but they are EXTREMELY viable).

I completely agree. I run 3 different victors and my favorite is a brawler running srm12. The victor is a fantastic mech.

[Abivard]

Allow all mechs to carry Jumpjets, JJ problem solved. I prefer this solution over the other of eliminating JJ's all together.

Fix the weapons that are broken, and stop trying to break ALL the weapons so that they are all equally useless.

OP wants this game to be brawler only is the problem, they are looking at what hurts their playstyle then demand that be nerfed. What helps their playstyle they want buffed to OP'ness.

[lsp]

Yes to the SRM's, no to everything else. Jump sniping is a part of mechwarrior, get used to it. Nerf after nerf is only going to make the game unplayable. And instead of everyone taking ppc's they will switch to srms and mlas, which I know alot of you would just love that.

My point is, there will always be a competitive choice, and people will boat it. Me personally, I don't want to go back to the circle jerk days where everyone just ran circles in the middle of the map. Also, anyone can play a "poptart", yes, but being good enough to hit individual componets in the 2-3 sec window you have is a different story. I don't find the meta to be a issue, doesn't effect me when I play my non JJ, non meta mechs. It's the team that effects the outcome of most the matchs.(pugs cough) If you have superior team work and comms, you will still win against a entire team of uncoordinated poptart meta mechs.

Edited by lsp, 16 February 2014 - 02:03 PM.

[FenixK17]

I think recoil and knockdown would be nice.

Recoil will move your crosshair (and your torso/arm) to the sides or up and down depending on where the weapon is. i.e: Jager with dual AC/20 fires both his cannons at the same time, recoil will be negated sideways but recoil will cause it to shift upwards. AC/2 trident BLRs will probably find themselves firing too much to the left. This might hurt canon builds though, like the JM6-S

Since poptarts only fire one shot and can realign before JJ and firing again, firing too many weapons in the air will cause them to fall and take damage to legs and maybe rear torso (note: while we don't want alpha strikers abusing JJs, we shouldn't punish all the JJ equipped builds out there since not all builds pop tart.)