57 replies to this topic

[Cavendish]

Its easy;

1) Charge time for the PPC ala Gauss.
2) make JJs give a boost FORWARD, no manuver.
3) make it impossible to charge up weapons when JJs are active.

This leaves ACs as the sniper weapon, but at least those are dependant on ammo and its hard to mount enough on a JJ mech to get a pinpoint Alpha strike worth it.

Done.

[Mechteric]

Cavendish, on 17 February 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

Its easy;

1) Charge time for the PPC ala Gauss.
2) make JJs give a boost FORWARD, no manuver.
3) make it impossible to charge up weapons when JJs are active.

This leaves ACs as the sniper weapon, but at least those are dependant on ammo and its hard to mount enough on a JJ mech to get a pinpoint Alpha strike worth it.

Done.

3/3 terrible ideas. Lets keep in mind that jumps jets are also supposed to be useful for things other than jump sniping. Additionally PPCs are also supposed to be useful for mechs that don't have jump jets. Doing those three things would indirectly hurt the gameplay more than it is now.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 17 February 2014 - 08:31 AM.

[Cavendish]

CapperDeluxe, on 17 February 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

3/3 terrible ideas. Lets keep in mind that jumps jets are also supposed to be useful for things other than jump sniping. Additionally PPCs are also supposed to be useful for mechs that don't have jump jets. Doing those three things would indirectly hurt the gameplay more than it is now.

It would allow you to jump. It would not allow you to jump-snipe or spin like a dynamo. Jump jets does not turn mechs into LAMs, there is no need for them to give assults the agility of lights.

PPCs/ERPPCs would still be of use, I see Gauss on the field every day, just not on any Highlanders or Victors oddly enough....

[Mechteric]

Cavendish, on 17 February 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

PPCs/ERPPCs would still be of use, I see Gauss on the field every day, just not on any Highlanders or Victors oddly enough....

The only mechs that run Gauss effectively really only run dual Gauss now, because of it desyncing with every other weapon it turns out they are only good with their own species. I have a feeling if PPCs got the same mechanic, you'd no longer see PPC's with AC's, lasers, or anything else really, and might actually see PPCs with Gauss again. That means it takes us right back to where we didn't want to be in the first place.


I still think making jump jets worse than they are now is not forward progress. Making jump jets boost faster (maybe turn slower), reach same height (but recharge slower) would greatly reduce their efficacy at sniping, and increase their utility in brawling.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 17 February 2014 - 10:45 AM.

[YueFei]

Cavendish, on 17 February 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

Its easy;

1) Charge time for the PPC ala Gauss.
2) make JJs give a boost FORWARD, no manuver.
3) make it impossible to charge up weapons when JJs are active.

This leaves ACs as the sniper weapon, but at least those are dependant on ammo and its hard to mount enough on a JJ mech to get a pinpoint Alpha strike worth it.

Done.

1.) Now you've made PPC ineffective for retaliatory fire against poptarts. While poptarts, who know when they're going to ascend, pre-charge it before jumping. Come on, man.
2.) Won't stop poptarts. A lot of the good ones already make lateral jumps, and do their best to make short jumps that just barely clear their hands from cover to shoot, minimizing their exposure. They already added forward boost to jump jets, adding more to it isn't going to help.
3.) Good poptarts don't run their jump jets for extended periods of time except when trying to gain plenty of altitutde to get eyes on an area. Once they're moving and popping out of cover to shoot, they keep their jumps short and are not airborne for very long. They also don't jump more often than their weapon cycle time. This will have almost no effect on poptarts, but certainly will cause jump brawlers and jump jet light mechs to lose significant DPS when their weapons don't recharge because they are jumping so often, even if their individual jumps are short hops.

[Khobai]

IMO just fix jumpjets. Make them work like they do in tabletop. Each jumpjet should give you additional jumpjet fuel. So if you only have 1 jumpjet you should barely be able to jump off the ground. Mechs should require 3-5 jumpjets to do any kindve decent jumping.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Khobai, on 17 February 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

IMO just fix jumpjets. Make them work like they do in tabletop. Each jumpjet should give you additional jumpjet fuel. So if you only have 1 jumpjet you should barely be able to jump off the ground. Mechs should require 3-5 jumpjets to do any kindve decent jumping.

This - plus mobilty for heavies and assaults should be reduced so they can't out turn lights and mediums. Jump brawling should not be so easy for them.
Make it so that you either carry the max number of JJs or none.

[Trauglodyte]

The PPC is fine. It is everything else that makes it really bad. Nobody complains about non-JJing mechs carrying PPCs. So, why attack the PPC when it isn't even the problem?

[C12AZyED]

I agree with you 100% on every point you just made. However I fear that these points have been raised over and over again by people such as yourself (and me too), yet PGI have totally failed to respond. The problem is that even if we are right( which we f(_)cking well are)it doesn't mean that they will change it

[Lightfoot]

I say we nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

No, I have a fix for Victors and Highlanders. Blow them up in-game, you get some XP and CBills that way.

You must be walking straight at them. To me they are just some other mechs. I have more trouble with Stalkers, but that doesn't mean I want them fixed. Variety is always best, keeps things interesting.

In old MechWarrior games we solved mech problems directly. We learned the patterns and weak spots of our prey and then they are no longer a problem, they are just a tactical challenge.

Players need to learn PGI, don't 'fix' everything for them.

Edited by Lightfoot, 17 February 2014 - 03:50 PM.

[Antarus]

Lightfoot, on 17 February 2014 - 03:39 PM, said:

I say we nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

No, I have a fix for Victors and Highlanders. Blow them up in-game, you get some XP and CBills that way.

You must be walking straight at them. To me they are just some other mechs. I have more trouble with Stalkers, but that doesn't mean I want them fixed. Variety is always best, keeps things interesting.

In old MechWarrior games we solved mech problems directly. We learned the patterns and weak spots of our prey and then they are no longer a problem, they are just a tactical challenge.

Players need to learn PGI, don't 'fix' everything for them.

You must not run anything medium then, because one of them only needs to be up high enough in the air on any map, see you once, and pull the trigger for your game to basically be over.

Anyway, I'm sure that if these mechs were really still a problem, you'd see tons of them in every game, and we'd basically be drowning in Victors and Cataphracts and HGN's all day.

But hey, we know that doesn't happen.


(For the record, 11 people out of 24 didn't bring a SHD, VTR, or CTF. And how many of them brought solid ballistic platforms? K2, Misery, Jager, etc.)

Edited by Antarus, 17 February 2014 - 03:47 PM.

[Lightfoot]

Antarus, on 17 February 2014 - 03:43 PM, said:

You must not run anything medium then, because one of them only needs to be up high enough in the air on any map, see you once, and pull the trigger for your game to basically be over.

Anyway, I'm sure that if these mechs were really still a problem, you'd see tons of them in every game, and we'd basically be drowning in Victors and Cataphracts and HGN's all day.

But hey, we know that doesn't happen.


(For the record, 11 people out of 24 didn't bring a SHD, VTR, or CTF. And how many of them brought solid ballistic platforms? K2, Misery, Jager, etc.)

So, a Medium has to beat an Assault in a face-off? Nah, a Medium can beat an Assault though. I won't spoil it though, these are fun things to figure out. Ostensibly, you send in you team's Assault and back them up... if ELO gave you an Assault of course. But there are ways a Medium can down an Assault.

[Rebas Kradd]

I love to drop in 4-mans with Centurions. We usually clean up. Yet I see nobody else picking them up.

Hmmm...

[Drunk Canuck]

Drakenn, on 15 February 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

Honestly, I don't see much of a problem. I run mostly brawling builds and do just fine. It's all about knowing when to engage. (mostly using SRMs, btw. They aren't perfect, but they are EXTREMELY viable).

Play in a competitive match against teams who actually know how to aim, pug matches are not the measuring stick to be used in determining how balanced builds are. Brawling is pointless against anyone who knows how to play a jump sniper, and ultimately that is what the issue is.

Jump jets need a massive nerf for assault and heavy classes, not just for their mobility but for the amount of height gained from a single jet. Mediums should feel the height nerf too but not to the same extent, however most light chassis run at least a pair of jets since they have the weight and slots to fit them when nothing else will fit into a Mech. I am of the opinion that if you want maximum height, you need the maximum number of jets to do it, and that change needs to happen soon.

I seriously don't for the life of me understand how PGI expects to introduce Clan tech when they can't even get IS tech right. But then again, they are monetizing it so badly that Clan tech is going to be so much fail when it has no incentive over IS tech other then range improvements. PGI has yet to justify the colossal price increase per variant over the Phoenix Project (almost $4 per Mech) when Clan tech is going to be "balanced" against IS weaponry not to mention have LESS customization then IS Mech's.

[MustrumRidcully]

CapperDeluxe, on 17 February 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

The only mechs that run Gauss effectively really only run dual Gauss now, because of it desyncing with every other weapon it turns out they are only good with their own species. I have a feeling if PPCs got the same mechanic, you'd no longer see PPC's with AC's, lasers, or anything else really, and might actually see PPCs with Gauss again. That means it takes us right back to where we didn't want to be in the first place.


I still think making jump jets worse than they are now is not forward progress. Making jump jets boost faster (maybe turn slower), reach same height (but recharge slower) would greatly reduce their efficacy at sniping, and increase their utility in brawling.

Well, you could make Gauss non-charging, but then you'd see more Dual Gauss mechs...

The problem is the charge mechanic belongs on the bad idea pile with ghost heat.

If you want to "desync" weapons, the safest way to do it would be really desyncing them - disallow group-firing them entirely. It's not a new concept - MMOs use it a lot via global cooldowns and shared cooldowns to ensure that a player cannot press all the magic buttons at once and overwhelm his enemy with one single, mighty attack. MW:O is not an MMO, but the underlying problem is the same.


It's not the only possible solution, but it beats the ideas implemented in the game by an Awesome's torso.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 18 February 2014 - 04:07 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

Drunk Canuck, on 17 February 2014 - 05:03 PM, said:

Play in a competitive match against teams who actually know how to aim, pug matches are not the measuring stick to be used in determining how balanced builds are. Brawling is pointless against anyone who knows how to play a jump sniper, and ultimately that is what the issue is.

Again, PPCs aren't the problem. It is the fact that they're instant impact damage that is the issue. This makes all single projectile weapons a problem. But, nobody cries about the non-JJing PPC mechs and people only hate the multi-AC mechs because they rattle you around and blind you with smoke every time you get hit. The weapons aren't really the problem, its the combination of a lot of weapons and having them all hit the same spot combined with...

Quote

Jump jets need a massive nerf for assault and heavy classes, not just for their mobility but for the amount of height gained from a single jet. Mediums should feel the height nerf too but not to the same extent, however most light chassis run at least a pair of jets since they have the weight and slots to fit them when nothing else will fit into a Mech. I am of the opinion that if you want maximum height, you need the maximum number of jets to do it, and that change needs to happen soon.

....this right here. JJs mess up hit registration in a lot of cases and allow players an unhealthy amount of survivability, agility, mobility, and every other kind of "ility" possible. So, as I said, front loaded weapons aren't the problem. They're simply a tool being abused by mechs using a lot of other broken mechanics to the fullest.

MustrumRidcully, on 18 February 2014 - 04:07 AM, said:

If you want to "desync" weapons, the safest way to do it would be really desyncing them - disallow group-firing them entirely. It's not a new concept - MMOs use it a lot via global cooldowns and shared cooldowns to ensure that a player cannot press all the magic buttons at once and overwhelm his enemy with one single, mighty attack. MW:O is not an MMO, but the underlying problem is the same.


It's not the only possible solution, but it beats the ideas implemented in the game by an Awesome's torso.

I don't mind the charge up mechanic. I just don't understand why I have to let go of the button for it to fire. Why can't it fire at the end of the charge? It achieves the same concept but doesn't actually waste the charge UNLESS you pull your finger off of the button like every other weapon in the game.

That aside, I don't know that PGI would ever want to impliment a global cool down. With everything being instantaneous, minus the GR, they'd have to put in a minimal delay on everything in combination with the GCD. That would be the only way of getting weapons desynced like you mentioned. I really think that they need to put the old PPC delay back in. Even if it were just 0.1s of delay, it would work. You could then put in AC recoil and you've got a desync in motion without affecting anything to a high level. Then again, I'm fine with dumping ACs on the same GH list as PPCs. If you want to pair them up for mass amounts of insane damage, you're going to get hot for it.

[MustrumRidcully]

It always felt to me like JJs mess with hit registration, but the last time I conciously looked for it, I think it was even before HSR - can you still really observe it, or is it just that people aren't really good at compensating for vertical movement?

[Trauglodyte]

Well, I had a legged Shadowhawk in front of me last night and I missed about 3s worth of AC2s and UAC5s when he was within 90m of me. I think that it is less of an issue with beam weapons as they're instant hit. But, combining projectile weapon hit registry and a mech moving up and down messes with the game's tracking. It is just an observation and I may very well be wrong. It just feels like the more we're forcing the game to calculate, the more it loses in the process. Then again, it isn't a situation that always happens either. I've nailed all JJers from BJs up to Highlanders at range with PPCs+ACs. Hiccups happen, I guess.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 18 February 2014 - 08:39 AM.