158 replies to this topic

[Hauser]

What prompted me to write this post is the general feeling that SRMs are about as effective as dumdum launchers. Between apparent hit registration issues, 2.0 damage per missile (used to be 2.5) and damage spread they just don't kill things quickly enough to justify their tonnage.

So why am I asking to making SRM's more skill dependent and not for a straight up damage boost? What does that even mean?

One of the mechanics the game revolves around is putting damage into the right body part. For both projectile weapons this comes down to aiming and leading correctly. For beams this comes down to aiming and tracking correctly. These are skills, the better you do those things, the more damage goes into the desired body part, the more effective your weapon is.

With SRM's however this is different. You aim them and you might miss, hit or clip somebody in the cloud of missiles. Yet there is no way to put all the damage in the same spot. The damage will always spread out. So as players get better at aiming and, tracking or leading, SRMs become relatively weaker. For example even if you had perfect aim with your SRM's and you manage to land every flight of missiles, you're still worse off then some one who can decently hit one body part with a medium laser.

This makes SRM's a difficult weapon to balance. Simply increasing damage makes it more effective but might make it too effective for when used by low skill players who have trouble focusing on a body part. Decreasing the spread will also make srms more effective but reduces their feel to a really slow travelling auto cannon.

So what is needed is a way to make the spread of damage from SRM's dependent on some skill. Back in closed beta there used to be a mechanic where SRMs would converge and deconverge every 75 meters. If you got your positioning right, you could land all SRMs in a single spot.

I'd like to see this feature return again.

edit: Words.

Edited by Hauser, 13 February 2014 - 08:55 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Not me. That wouldn't be SRMs. SRMs were a sand blasting RNG damage. They need to stay random.

[Tahribator]

SRMs used to have a different flight path, and would actually converge several times in their path(take a close look at this video). So, you could find out the first convergence and pull to optimal range(say 70m) and could land all missiles on the exact same spot.

I wouldn't mind if they brought that pathing back, I'd rather have it rather than the current "shotgun" spread.

Edited by Tahribator, 13 February 2014 - 09:10 AM.

[IceSerpent]

I am with Joseph on this one. We definitely don't need SRMs to converge on a single location under any circumstances. They do need a fairly large damage buff though (on a side note, LBX needs a similar buff).

[Navy Sixes]

We definitely need something for close in. Make SRMs the Brawler's go to... Heck, take the damage up to 3. Give players a reason to run SRMs again, Give brawlers back the power to close with a poptart and shove that PPC up their [REDACTED]. This game is getting so boring, PGI.

Fix the missiles.

[Hauser]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 February 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

Not me. That wouldn't be SRMs. SRMs were a sand blasting RNG damage. They need to stay random.

IceSerpent, on 13 February 2014 - 09:03 AM, said:

I am with Joseph on this one. We definitely don't need SRMs to converge on a single location under any circumstances. They do need a fairly large damage buff though (on a side note, LBX needs a similar buff).

In table top and before HSR was implemented in MWO all weapons were a sand blasting with RNG damage. Once HSR was implemented the game changed, so I think that ship has sailed.

The need for a damage buff is the problem though. Buffing SRM damage to the point where they can compete with auto-cannons and lasers for high skill players will make them overpowered for low skill players. Hence there needs to be a way to make their effectiveness skill dependent.

edit:

Now I'm not saying SRM's don't need a damage buff at all. Just that the one required to make them viable at the top would be too damn big.

Edited by Hauser, 13 February 2014 - 09:25 AM.

[Screech]

I never understood why they decided to make SRM shoot like a pack of bottle rockets.

[Khobai]

SRMs should be guided lock-on weapons instead of dumbfire bottle rockets. SRMs arnt dumbfire, theyre direct fire guided missiles. MRMs and rockets are dumbfire but SRMs arnt.

[MischiefSC]

I've been running them for testing for a little bit now. 4xASRM6 on a Battlemaster S.

Firstly, I suspect a bit that the hit-reg issue is driven by missile collision or something similar. When I shoot the arm launchers (one on each arm) together, no issue. I get pretty solid reg. When I fire the torso launchers (both on LT) together, they do crap. I fire them seperately, I get decent reg.

That aside, they're still crap. Even with hit registration there the damage spreads too much, they are worthless at ranges beyond 150m or so even with Artemis, slow, hot and unreliable.

They need decent convergence up to 270m with Artemis. Not single hit loc but way better than they have. They need a speed boost. Probably a damage buff. Then they need to still hit out to 540m, just with widely reduced accuracy.

In TT MLs and SRMs had the same range. MLs got their range doubled (though with reduced damage), SRMs need the same thing. Currently with a 270m range cap plus pitiful accuracy even with Artemis beyond 50-100m or so, plus ghost heat and all their other issues they're just garbage.

[East Indy]

Here's the nuclear option: use lock-ons for SRMs, because that mechanic is actually reliable.

Maintain fire rate but drop per-missile damage. Lower cockpit shake. Increase Streak range slightly.

Significant drawbacks. It blurs the line between weapons, it implies a 1.5-ton sunk cost for Beagle Active Probe, it disrupts familiar tactics.

But some significant benefits. Far less second-guessing SRMs, or avoiding them entirely. Randomly targeted locations means heat scale can be relaxed or even lifted.

Weapon	Damage	Range	Cooldown
Streak SRM-2	5	330	3.50
SRM-2	3.2	270	2.50
SRM-4	4.8	270	3.25
SRM-6	9.6	270	4.00

Numbers adjusted as necessary.

[Warblood]

fix hit-reg and srm's will b fine..

they don't need a dam boost, they don't need pinpoint and if want srm's to lock on use ssrm's(and ask the dev's to add the other ssrm's 4's n 6's)

also ive found that:
3 srm4s do more dam then 2 srm6s when fired at he same time..
3 srm4s chain fired do more dam then 3 srm4s shot at the same time.
2 srm6s chain fired do more dam then 2 srm6s shot at the same time.

seems the more srm's fired at once the more hit reg issues ull get.

[MischiefSC]

Even with hit-reg fixed SRMs are crap.

Beyond 100m the damage spreads all over the enemy mech, most of them miss - even with Artemis.

Compare that with, say, MLs. Full damage to 270 M, reduced damage out to 540m. Pinpoint accuracy. You'll kill more mechs with 4 MLs than 4 SRM6s.

[Adiuvo]

MischiefSC, on 13 February 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

Even with hit-reg fixed SRMs are crap.

Beyond 100m the damage spreads all over the enemy mech, most of them miss - even with Artemis.

Compare that with, say, MLs. Full damage to 270 M, reduced damage out to 540m. Pinpoint accuracy. You'll kill more mechs with 4 MLs than 4 SRM6s.

SRMs are the better brawling weapon due to their lack of burn time. Once you fire you can immediately go back to shielding your torsos with your arms.

[MischiefSC]

Adiuvo, on 13 February 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

SRMs are the better brawling weapon due to their lack of burn time. Once you fire you can immediately go back to shielding your torsos with your arms.

So can ACs and pulse. Also due to higher lead difference due to insanely slow projectile speed you need to turn tighter than the guy with the lasers or ACs, again requiring you to spend mroe time positioning to fire.

Not to mention the guy with the lasers can get at least the bulk of his damage in a general area. You can pop off 24 SRMs at someone at 120m with him dead in your sights and be happy to land half of them scattered over his whole body.

They're absolutely worthless compared to everything else for the weight, heat, tonnage, range and damage. If hit-reg was fixed tomorrow you'd still be better off with streaks, LRMs, or just more/bigger lasers/AC on your other hardpoints.

[IceSerpent]

Hauser, on 13 February 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

The need for a damage buff is the problem though. Buffing SRM damage to the point where they can compete with auto-cannons and lasers for high skill players will make them overpowered for low skill players. Hence there needs to be a way to make their effectiveness skill dependent.

It's not a problem as long as damage to the targeted location is less than that of a comparable pinpoint weapon. If you target CT and your AC20 boat does 40 dmg to that CT, but SRM boat (on the same mech) does let's say 30 to CT + 25 to LT + 25 to RT (80 dmg overall, but 25% less damage to CT) it becomes difficult to argue that one is definitely better than the other.

[Satan n stuff]

Hauser, on 13 February 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

OP

You get more than twice as much close range firepower per hardpoint with SRMs as you do with medium lasers, at a much better heat efficiency. Some accuracy loss is a fair price to pay for that.

[Adiuvo]

MischiefSC, on 13 February 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

So can ACs and pulse. Also due to higher lead difference due to insanely slow projectile speed you need to turn tighter than the guy with the lasers or ACs, again requiring you to spend mroe time positioning to fire.

Not to mention the guy with the lasers can get at least the bulk of his damage in a general area. You can pop off 24 SRMs at someone at 120m with him dead in your sights and be happy to land half of them scattered over his whole body.

They're absolutely worthless compared to everything else for the weight, heat, tonnage, range and damage. If hit-reg was fixed tomorrow you'd still be better off with streaks, LRMs, or just more/bigger lasers/AC on your other hardpoints.

ACs are too heavy for most mechs to brawl efficiently with them (mediums) and pulse lasers right now are just bad. I also don't understand your positioning argument, you just fire where they will be with SRMs rather than where currently are... time to fire is still the same between the two scenarios.

[MischiefSC]

Satan n stuff, on 13 February 2014 - 11:19 AM, said:

You get more than twice as much close range firepower per hardpoint with SRMs as you do with medium lasers, at a much better heat efficiency. Some accuracy loss is a fair price to pay for that.

Really? Because a ML is 1 ton and 1 crit, 5 damage, 4 heat, range 1-270 full damage, 271-540m reduced damage, pinpoint accuracy. An SRM2 is 1 ton and 1 crit, 2 x 2 damage, 2 heat, range 1-270 full damage, no extended range. Wildly splitting accuracy, quite possible at 200m to literally have bot missiles miss a mech-sized target at 200m that's dead center reticle.

For an extra 1 ton and 1 crit you can actually hit the target in the reticle, just splitting damage. Just that projectile speed is 300 instead of instantaneous.

So an SRM6 will spread 12 points of damage over most of a mech. Well, more likely 8 points - two missiles (top right and bottom left generally) will miss a mech-sized target beyond 100m even with Artemis if the target is dead center reticle. It does this for a cost of 4 tons, 3 slots, 4 heat (ghost heat on 4th launcher) and a slower firing cycle.

An ML would get you 3-5 points in a single location at 270 M for 4 heat every 3 seconds. An SRM6A, at 4 times the weight and 3 times the size will get you a little more damage (not much) spread over the whole target for the same heat and a slower refire delay.

Not to mention ammo costs. Generally 2 tons/launcher to use effectively as a primary weapon. So that puts your SRM6A at 6 tons and 5 crits. You're better off with a large laser and an extra DHS for same weight and space.

SRMs are crap. If you could put all 6 missiles on or near the same hit location at 200 m and still threaten targets out to 500m I'd be willing to agree the weight and size costs are worth it.

Even if hit reg was perfect SRMs don't pull their weight. We had that crazy splash damage that involved SRMs doing several times the damage they should (like 4 pts per missile or more on some chassis) and so skewed perspectives on it. I'm all for it spreading damage but as every other weapon picked up pinpoint accuracy SRMs need an accuracy boost of some sort as well. Not to mention the range boost everything else got.

[Sandpit]

Ballistics = Direct Damage
Lasers = DoT
Missiles = Area Damage

that's the easiest and simplest way to break them down. I'm also getting people to test a theory for SRMs if anyone here would like to add to it. I noticed while running 3 AC10s on my Ilya the other night that when fired in quick succession my reticle wouldn't flash red indicating a hit even though I was dead on the target and made a good shot.

I assumed it was bad hit registration, lag, latency, ping, etc. but at the end of the match I noticed that my damage output was well over 600 indicating that I actually hit a lot more than my reticle was showing. When I slowed down the rate of fire it would register the hits more accurately on my reticle. So I'm wondering if it just has problems showing your hits (even though it's registering the damage on the enemy) if you're firing off multiple shots in a rapid manner.

A few others have started tracking this and it looks like this MIGHT be, as least in part, the issue with SRMs

[MischiefSC]

Adiuvo, on 13 February 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

ACs are too heavy for most mechs to brawl efficiently with them (mediums) and pulse lasers right now are just bad. I also don't understand your positioning argument, you just fire where they will be with SRMs rather than where currently are... time to fire is still the same between the two scenarios.

SRMs have a travel speed of 300. Lasers are pinpoint, ACs start at 650 and go up. With SRMs you have to aim further ahead. If you and I are circling (like in a brawl) I have to aim my SRMs further ahead of you than you would with me aiming lasers or ACs. The result being that to use SRMs in a brawl I have to be able to turn more tightly - this involves either being in a smaller, faster mech (less armor) or slowing/stopping to pivot more tightly (making myself an easier target). At ranges beyond 100-150m SRMs spread so much that firing on a moving target are just broadly peppering them with SRMs.

Let's put it this way. You pick any tonnage of mech that can boat missiles and load it with SRMs. Not SSRMs, SRMs. I'll take the same tonnage of mech with energy or AC mounts and boat them. Then we'll brawl. Don't even have to shoot at ranges beyond 270, we'll pretend that the range advantage every weapon but small lasers has over SRMs doesn't count. I'll still beat you and do it quickly and handily.

Sandpit, on 13 February 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

Ballistics = Direct Damage
Lasers = DoT
Missiles = Area Damage

that's the easiest and simplest way to break them down. I'm also getting people to test a theory for SRMs if anyone here would like to add to it. I noticed while running 3 AC10s on my Ilya the other night that when fired in quick succession my reticle wouldn't flash red indicating a hit even though I was dead on the target and made a good shot.

I assumed it was bad hit registration, lag, latency, ping, etc. but at the end of the match I noticed that my damage output was well over 600 indicating that I actually hit a lot more than my reticle was showing. When I slowed down the rate of fire it would register the hits more accurately on my reticle. So I'm wondering if it just has problems showing your hits (even though it's registering the damage on the enemy) if you're firing off multiple shots in a rapid manner.

A few others have started tracking this and it looks like this MIGHT be, as least in part, the issue with SRMs

I suspect it's concurrent hits with SRMs, it may not be the same issue. I just ran over a dozen drops with 4xASRM6s and can't say I saw a single situation where I didn't see a hit register but my damage seemed to have reflected it.

As to to your breakdown of weapons I'm all for that - however, they still need to remain competitive with each other. Lasers are DOT but pinpoint instant accuracy. SRMs are area damage (which is already a negative) as well as stupidly inaccurate. They are not competitive with ballistics or lasers. In which case... are they just there for 'flavor'? Nobody is expected to use them except in troll builds? Doesn't that, well, totally invalidate whole swaths of mech designs?