25 replies to this topic

[Baron Cunedda Kell]

1. Does Artemis work with streaks?

2. If so, then what is the benefit? As I was under the impression, they do not work with streaks, as they all hit anyway, once you lock on your target, please advise.

[TercieI]

Baron Cunedda Kell, on 17 February 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:

1. Does Artemis work with streaks?

2. If so, then what is the benefit? As I was under the impression, they do not work with streaks, as they all hit anyway, once you lock on your target, please advise.

Artemis is extremely useful for streaks because of an "undocumented feature." Streaks apparently use the same code as LRMs for lock-ons, so you get the decreased lock-on time benefit of Artemis on your streaks. It's a huge help (and now much cheaper!). All my SSRM-heavy builds use Artemis.

[Redshift2k5]

Under normal Battletech rules, Artemis and Streaks do not work together.

In MWO Artemis applies it's enhanced target lock speed to SSRMs as well as the intended LRMs.

[z00med]

In addition, if you use BAP (which you should, if you use SSRM), the both lock-on time boni stack. Its a nasty little surprise for annoying bugs (Spiders ) running around your mech. If you already have the "Advanced Target Delay" module: that makes it even a more nasty surprise

Edited by z00med, 17 February 2014 - 09:17 AM.

[Jody Von Jedi]

I didn't believe Artemis did anything for Streaks for a long time. So I did a test. Conclusion: There is a noticeable decrease in lock-on time with SSRM when Artemis is installed.

Jody

[Durant Carlyle]

This is a bug and the devs are aware of it. Don't get too comfortable with it, as it will be fixed eventually.

[warner2]

z00med, on 17 February 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

In addition, if you use BAP (which you should, if you use SSRM), the both lock-on time boni stack. Its a nasty little surprise for annoying bugs (Spiders ) running around your mech. If you already have the "Advanced Target Delay" module: that makes it even a more nasty surprise

I don't think it does.

I don't think BAP reduces lock-on time for missiles.

BAP always did three things:

- Reduce time to get target information (paper doll)
- Increase sensor range (+200m)
- Detection of shut-down 'mechs at short range

Then PGI added the fourth, which is to counter ECM at 150m.

Unless something has changed it doesn't affect lock-on time.

[Durant Carlyle]

warner2, on 17 February 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

I don't think BAP reduces lock-on time for missiles.

BAP always did three things:

- Reduce time to get target information (paper doll)
- Increase sensor range (+200m)
- Detection of shut-down 'mechs at short range

Then PGI added the fourth, which is to counter ECM at 150m.

Unless something has changed it doesn't affect lock-on time.

This is correct. There is no lock-time benefit to the BAP.

[z00med]

Sorry, I had in mind that most lights I encounter have ECM. So the benefit comes from "counter ECM" + faster lockon from Artemis + Adv. Target Decay. (its darn hard holding a 150+kph mech under TAG if its circling you...)

Thanks for the correction

Edited by z00med, 17 February 2014 - 09:49 AM.

[Inflatable Fish]

from what I've heard, even though it's considered a "bug," this undocumented bonus for SSRM is here to stay, unless they figure out a way to decouple LRM and SSRM lockon codes.

[Koniving]

Long story short: It's a bug.

Short story long: PGI has put any solutions to the matter on the back burner as it would 1) require a separate lock on system and/or code and 2) take away from development time on any of the other strongly needed features.

[JC Daxion]

Koniving, on 17 February 2014 - 10:10 AM, said:

Long story short: It's a bug.

.

Why is it a bug? IS that from mech warrior rules? I know PGI has done some stuff different than TT top rules, (something i never played so no clue)

Personally i like how it works with Streaks to speed up lock.. Adding Artemis+bap, Is a pretty big weight addition to your mech, so why not add some bonus to it?

[Arnold J Rimmer]

It's a bug because the lock-on time decrease is only meant to work with LRM's. PGI cut a corner and used the same lock-on code for SSRM's, though, and here we are.

Artemis will not add any additional weight nor slots to your build, if the only missile launchers on your 'mech are Streaks. They're not meant to work with Artemis at all, so apart from the c-bill cost, it's a 'free' upgrade. The BAP costs 2 slots and 1.5 tons, though.

[JC Daxion]

they aren't suppose to work with SRM's either? I thought reducing spread on SRM's was a prime reason to use this upgrade..

[TercieI]

JC Daxion, on 17 February 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

they aren't suppose to work with SRM's either? I thought reducing spread on SRM's was a prime reason to use this upgrade..

No, definitely intended to work with SRMs and LRMs, just not with SSRMs. It's a "free" upgrade to streaks, which seems to be a mistake.

I'm with Kon, I'm skeptical it'll get fixed any time in the foreseeable future. And at a now-cheaper price (250k down from 750k), it's a must-have on any streak mech.

[Redshift2k5]

JC Daxion, on 17 February 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

they aren't suppose to work with SRM's either? I thought reducing spread on SRM's was a prime reason to use this upgrade..

Artemis does work on SRMs, although the effect is different; Artemis tightens the spread on SRMs

[Koniving]

JC Daxion, on 17 February 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

they aren't suppose to work with SRM's either? I thought reducing spread on SRM's was a prime reason to use this upgrade..

In MWO ARtemis tightens the spread of SRMs and LRMs. It accelerates the lock on LRMs (intended) and Streaks (unintended). For the weapons it is meant to affect, there is additional cost and weight penalties for using it. There are no such penalties on streaks. Thus, it is a bug.

As for why Artemis affects SRMs when SRMs do not lock the truth is SRMs are as PGI intended and as Mechwarrior has displayed in the past, not as Battletech intended.

Spoiler

The lore is that SRMs are thermally guided, non-locked and easily fooled missiles suffering from ADD (zomg, what's that, chase! Another heat source? CHASE!). The manual is that SRMs are self-guided hard-locked missiles that generally miss because the lock is fed to missile one at a time and the user may fire before the lock is properly fed (or due to inability for the missile to fly to the target properly such as the enemy dodged). Got to remember, SRMs were intended to be fired once per 10 seconds.

Artemis adds a change in the missiles (no weight cost only cash) and a dedicated control system (with computer, array etc. dedicated) that weighs a ton per launcher.

According to book lore [different author] it takes the "soft lock" of SRMs and (universal; all things agree) so long as the enemy and the missiles are in sight, can remotely control the missiles to hit the intended target. ECM can jam this communication, and without remote control the SRMs default to (book lore) self-contained thermal-based guidance [in which the missiles become confused, scatter, and then try to attack the largest heat source it can find] or (manual) disperse to normal behavior based on intended target.

Streaks are essentially SRMs with a more advanced, dedicated, control system that also works to anticipate whether or not the Streak-SRM can in fact hit the target. If there is no anticipated possibility of missing, the hard-locked Streak will fire. If there is, then the launcher will NOT permit the missiles to fire. However beyond this, Streaks are no different than standard SRMs in lore or in the manual.
When it comes to ECM, if the streak was already fired it will hit the target as the Streak SRM's only difference versus an Artemis SRM is that the streak is self-contained. If it was not fired, the launcher cannot receive lock data from the main computer or it cannot feed it to the missiles. Either way, without lock and confirmation from missiles receiving lock the launchers absolutely will not function.

For comparison, MRMs or medium ranged missiles are what MWO's SRMs behave like. Dumbfired, zero-guidance weapons. Rockets are also akin to them.

For an example as to why Artemis was preferred for SRMs, there are a few accounts in the 1990's books. One of which where pilots discussing things over a bar would say that SRMs spread out because "they would attack each other if they get too close." Artemis takes remote control over them, and as an invested third party, keeps them focused on the target and not just whether or not it produces heat.

Another example describes a retreating, cooling light mech using a flowing river of lava to draw enemy SRM fire away from itself. The missiles quickly lost interest in the light and rammed into the lava.

A cool thing of note: NARC draws SRMs in lore and the manual. One author described the SRMs that under normal circumstances are lifeless machines "following a mindless routine" that when a NARC is detected, "spring to life" and became "ravenous; aggressive" and specifically described the missiles "wildly leaping" over each other in a race to be the first to hit. Sounds like meat to a piranha.

NARC doesn't do that here. Damn shame.

Edited by Koniving, 17 February 2014 - 12:58 PM.

[JC Daxion]

ahh... Well i think a simple fix would be to add +1 ton to the ammo like the others, and call it a day.. that way it is not a free upgrade, and on tight builds would be something to think about. Drop a ML or pair of SL's or a SMP, or add the artemis to your streaks.

I personally like the speed up feature on streaks, as those fast moving mechs can shot, and in and out of range so fast, that split second can mean hitting or not.. Though i guess light pilots can say, I hate it!.. But i think people are typically swearing about light pilots and trying to hit them, especially in slower/larger mechs, than the other way around

[Koniving]

JC Daxion, on 17 February 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

ahh... Well i think a simple fix would be to add +1 ton to the ammo like the others, and call it a day.. that way it is not a free upgrade, and on tight builds would be something to think about. Drop a ML or pair of SL's or a SMP, or add the artemis to your streaks.

See. Until something is done, if it will ever be done, this is actually a simple and solid solution. It's also very commonly thought of. ...Why hasn't it been done?

[Victor Morson]

z00med, on 17 February 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

Sorry, I had in mind that most lights I encounter have ECM. So the benefit comes from "counter ECM" + faster lockon from Artemis + Adv. Target Decay. (its darn hard holding a 150+kph mech under TAG if its circling you...)

Thanks for the correction

BAP is really really good. It does counter ECM and it also does help scan information faster, among other things. It's not a bad system, but it does not help lock times.

Artemis & TAG help lock times across the board, including the unlisted boosted to Streaks as people have confirmed here.

EDIT: Also the Streak+Artemis thing isn't an exploit or a bug, it's a questionable design choice that they've never talked or even hinted about fixing, so I wouldn't worry about it disappearing anytime soon. They have ONE lock on system, so any missile that locks on will get buffs to it. The only band-aid you could throw in there is make it so the better lock times only happen if they have an LRM mounted on the 'mech too; it'd still buff Streaks if you had both.

Edited by Victor Morson, 17 February 2014 - 12:56 PM.