52 replies to this topic

[C E Dwyer]

I'm sitting here thinking a lot of these idea's are quite good, and I wouldn't want to see arty or air strikes go, but having everyone capable of using arty isn't sensible, not all troops have access to call in arty, its takes training and or command control.

I all ways felt that arty and air strikes were brought in so that people had something to spend money on, in a sense it became a one salvo lrm attack anyone could use, for c-bills, and its far more flexible than the weapons that are supposed to be the local indirect support. which are the lurm boats.

So the way I see it is that only certain types of mech should be able to fit a command module and only those with an active module, and pilot skills can call down arty and air strikes and depending on what level of skill one or two fire missions.

The rest of us would have to work with our missile boats, narc, tag spot etc, to get the xp and c-bill bonuses

[wanderer]

I get amused as heck when I see people whine about artillery.

Especially when I frequently ask PUG players "So,which modules do you use?"

...and the answer is "None."

There is nothing sweeter than zipping out to see everyone squatting on a Conquest point, slapping that arty smoke on the top of it, and then seeing those crosshairs glow red-red-red-red-red-red as the entire salvo hits gold. Between that and air strikes, it has the power to shake up the most stale standoffs around.

Which is what a "grenade" like air/arty is supposed to do. It's a tool that far too many PUG players don't even realize they have, or avoid because it's 40K in C-bills and they're in fear of slowing their grind.

Heck, I'd pay 4 million for one I didn't have to replace every time.

[East Indy]

Willard Phule, on 18 February 2014 - 08:48 AM, said:

But both? Ok, I don't waste MC on them since I've managed to open up the skill tree for them...but....80k cbills to bring both? That's pushing it.

Well, exactly! I'm talking about eight strikes going off in quick succession -- not because of a tactical blunder but because early on there are only so many places a team will be. Devs don't look at heat maps for nothing.

What these guys are doing isn't "wrong" -- they're playing the game as-is. But it illustrates a flaw leading to excessive/gimmick gameplay, and since someone brought up the topic, I figured I'd weigh in.

[C E Dwyer]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 February 2014 - 08:32 AM, said:

So then they are used as they were intended you mean?

No, as you can only call down one fire mission, further arty strikes on smoke is not done, you call arty down on map references, which can lead to some 'intresting results'

Air strikes can be called down on smoke but the time between smoke drop and strike is longer.

So if the counter argument is, this is a game and not anything like real arty, then the argument that they should be used quickly and in concentrated form is equally invalid as a balance is required.

[Rhialto]

Willard Phule, on 18 February 2014 - 08:48 AM, said:

*shrug* I always bring an Arty strike, just in case I get lucky and the other team is having some badly choreographed square dance going on in a choke point...it's kind of hard to pass that up.

Same here. I only PUG and often I'm alone with Arty. When I spectate I sometime see scenarios where Arty would have been great buy nobody carry it.

It would be different if there was 24 of those in evey match but we are far from this with 1, 2 and sometimes 3 in a match.

[3rdworld]

Rhialto, on 18 February 2014 - 09:28 AM, said:

It would be different if there was 24 of those in evey match but we are far from this with 1, 2 and sometimes 3 in a match.

It is unfortunate we don't play the same game.

[Rhialto]

3rdworld, on 18 February 2014 - 09:31 AM, said:

It is unfortunate we don't play the same game.

How could be? I think I play maybe 100 match a week and never saw Art/AS abused... you never saw my name in a game? Different timezone maybe... or different ELO?

[Corvus Antaka]

should just limit the amount per match. 3 arty & 3 air per match is plenty.

[C E Dwyer]

wanderer, on 18 February 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

I get amused as heck when I see people whine about artillery.

Especially when I frequently ask PUG players "So,which modules do you use?"

...and the answer is "None."

There is nothing sweeter than zipping out to see everyone squatting on a Conquest point, slapping that arty smoke on the top of it, and then seeing those crosshairs glow red-red-red-red-red-red as the entire salvo hits gold. Between that and air strikes, it has the power to shake up the most stale standoffs around.

Which is what a "grenade" like air/arty is supposed to do. It's a tool that far too many PUG players don't even realize they have, or avoid because it's 40K in C-bills and they're in fear of slowing their grind.

Heck, I'd pay 4 million for one I didn't have to replace every time.

Well this is exactly the attitude that makes me shun arty and air strike its all very well for founders who have played for months to rack up millions of credits so the cost of a module isn't even noticed, but a newb struggling to find 1.5 million for DHS 40 k might well be over 50% of match earnings.


Arty breaking up stale situations should be coming from the LRM tubes or flanking, not some consumable that a certain % of people don't have to think about paying for.


People haven't be calling for its removal, at least in this thread, just a way of making it sensible

[Almond Brown]

Wintersdark, on 18 February 2014 - 06:46 AM, said:

Why you see so many arty/air strikes: because the other options are terrible in comparison. They aren't op, there just aren't good options.

Weapon Mods? Lol! A minor range increase which is only occasionally beneficial at the cost of increased heat which is always harmful?

Regular modules? Some are useful, but none are as good as arty, air, or even coolshot. Still, I'd use some situationally, except... 5, 6 million cbills vs 40k? I'd have to buy 150 airstrikes to make up for one... And I've got some 50echs with 2-3 module slots each, and a UI that makes finding and moving modules hideously painful.

Nah... We just need modules that don't suck as alternatives is all.

I get this weird feeling reading that, that, if and when, those new Modules did become "useful", as you so desire, the screams of PAY2WIN would also originate from here as well.

P.S. Both Air and Arty upgrades, which are a must really, are a cool 4 million each.

[3rdworld]

Rhialto, on 18 February 2014 - 09:36 AM, said:

How could be? I think I play maybe 100 match a week and never saw Art/AS abused... you never saw my name in a game? Different timezone maybe... or different ELO?

Well I played 3 games last night

1st game we dropped 10 Arty/air
2nd game we dropped 8-12
3rd game we dropped 15

The enemy likely dropped as many, so over 3 matches I saw at least 60 arty/air strikes. Also I had a kill in the first match with an Air, and a kill in the 3rd with an arty.

Edited by 3rdworld, 18 February 2014 - 09:55 AM.

[Almond Brown]

3rdworld, on 18 February 2014 - 09:31 AM, said:

It is unfortunate we don't play the same game.

Given the average match time of 7 minutes, folks must be dropping them on areas they "think" the enemy will be in 4 seconds later. LOL!

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 18 February 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

should just limit the amount per match. 3 arty & 3 air per match is plenty.

And how do you propose they do that in a PUG environment? First Mechs to join get to keep theirs and all others get stripped back to their inventories to trey again later?

[MechB Kotare]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 18 February 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

should just limit the amount per match. 3 arty & 3 air per match is plenty.

Exacly this. The idea was basicly just to decrese the number of strikes used in single match.

wanderer, on 18 February 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

...

There is nothing sweeter than zipping out to see everyone squatting on a Conquest point, slapping that arty smoke on the top of it, and then seeing those crosshairs glow red-red-red-red-red-red as the entire salvo hits gold. Between that and air strikes, it has the power to shake up the most stale standoffs around.

. . .

That's your opinion. And i can resepct that. In my opinion theres is nothing sweeter than focusfire someone in a matter of sec. To brawl in pack. To maintaining tactical location, and see how enemy team tatcically reacts to that.

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The idea i offered wasnt meant to restrict you from using them. You can always see the 'sweet red crosshair' even when your battlemech fired nothing, from its own armaments.

But being constantly hit onebyone, by amount of 'grenades' which in higher number changes from tactical asset to engagement and battle asset...?

Now i dont give a s*** about pug matches. But imagine a 12men, when each of those 12 mounts 2 strikes. That makes 24 strikes, they can be call for almost instantly.

Thats just way to much. You can techically win the match just by using strikes.
Other modules will then make no sense, and no point for mounting.

I dont want them nerfed. I'd even buff them lol. I mean...

In MC, one Large strike could wipe out almost everything in its vicinity. Depending one the location the strike hitted enemy mech.

[Almond Brown]

Quote

"But imagine a 12men, when each of those 12 mounts 2 strikes. That makes 24 strikes, they can be call for almost instantly"

Imagine both Teams each bringing 24 PPC's and using them over and over and over. Is that somehow unfair? Thing is, both Teams can bring a max. of 24 strikes and for the low low cost of 960,000 CB's.

If one Team does and one Team does not, then that same problem could arise with LRM's or Gauss rifles and you have the same issue. Folks will complain the other Team had more of something that they had less of.

New rule in MWO. You have to declare what you are bringing into the Match before launch. That way everyone can adjust and or have thrown out those things they forgot they needed, until reminded. That would be the fair thing right?

This place is funny. Everyone wins or the QQ flows like water....

[Wintersdark]

Almond Brown, on 18 February 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

I get this weird feeling reading that, that, if and when, those new Modules did become "useful", as you so desire, the screams of PAY2WIN would also originate from here as well.

P.S. Both Air and Arty upgrades, which are a must really, are a cool 4 million each.

The upgrades for Air and Arty to function well (not the modules, which are terrible) are GXP purchases, not cbill ones. The cbill upgrade modules are really not necessarily advantageous at all, as the reduce the AOE area (hit fewer targets, easier to evade your arty/air strikes).

You certainly wouldn't hear me complaining about modules being P2W, not if they were cbill purchases. I've never complained about that. There'd be someone yelling P2W, but there ALWAYS is someone yelling P2W even if whatever clearly isn't.

Having the other modules be competitively useful would in no way be P2W - you buy them with regular ingame cbills. And long term, they're going to be cheaper than continuous arty/air use anyways.

[Craig Steele]

Rhialto, on 18 February 2014 - 07:58 AM, said:

I find current state to be perfect...


Why? Think of it as a 'shit' happens situation. I have yet to be killed that way with so many games played so yes this situation may exist but it is so rare that I see no problem with this.

If for some reason you were frustrated once to have your Strong Atlas at 100% killed in a single shot, the same can happen with a Dual AC/20 build in front of you... it's rare but it does exist and I don't think it happens too much to be annoying.

My 2 cents

I think a lot of people who complain about it are the ones wanting to stay behind that rock forever pop tartining / sniping.

Which is fine to execute that tactic, but artillery represents a real threat to them if they do, and so they argue for a no risk all reward scenario.

Leave it as is or buff it imo, artillery won't hit your head if your maneuvering.

[wanderer]

MechB Kotare, on 18 February 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

Exacly this. The idea was basicly just to decrese the number of strikes used in single match.



That's your opinion. And i can resepct that. In my opinion theres is nothing sweeter than focusfire someone in a matter of sec. To brawl in pack. To maintaining tactical location, and see how enemy team tatcically reacts to that.

----------

The idea i offered wasnt meant to restrict you from using them. You can always see the 'sweet red crosshair' even when your battlemech fired nothing, from its own armaments.

But being constantly hit onebyone, by amount of 'grenades' which in higher number changes from tactical asset to engagement and battle asset...?

Now i dont give a s*** about pug matches. But imagine a 12men, when each of those 12 mounts 2 strikes. That makes 24 strikes, they can be call for almost instantly.

Thats just way to much. You can techically win the match just by using strikes.
Other modules will then make no sense, and no point for mounting.

You also realize that the player in question is trading a good chunk of their earning to deliver a slow, dodgable AoE, right?

Arty/airstrikes on lights and many mediums is meaningless unless you catch them standing still. It can briefly force someone off a cap point, but unless they're not situationally aware, you're not catching them in much or any of the blast unless they're not even thinking to look for the smoke. What they do is break up groups, which is precisely what fire support is supposed to do- force people out of positions, break open stalemates. If the entire team picks up 24 A/A modules? Well, shucks, that's each of them burning 80K trying for the win, and even then, you're going to have smart teams spreading out after the first few barrages come down.

Arty is the method by which one's tactical position can be brought into question. If I could strap a proper Arrow IV onto my Catapult and bombard people like a good Capellan, I would do that instead. Just add that to the weapons list and I guarantee you, you can see me lobbing AIV artillery missiles on your position like I should. Instead, LRMs and module fire support.

Quote

I dont want them nerfed. I'd even buff them lol. I mean...

In MC, one Large strike could wipe out almost everything in its vicinity. Depending one the location the strike hitted enemy mech.

And in this case, a direct hit to the head is a kill shot for arty, meaning they can as well- if very lucky and the target is standing on ground zero.

[Mystere]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 18 February 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

should just limit the amount per match. 3 arty & 3 air per match is plenty.

I will agree only if the number of shells/bombs were increased 4x to compensate for the 75% reduction in usage.

[MechB Kotare]

Almond Brown, on 18 February 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

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Imagine both Teams each bringing 24 PPC's and using them over and over and over. Is that somehow unfair? Thing is, both Teams can bring a max. of 24 strikes and for the low low cost of 960,000 CB's.
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This place is funny. Everyone wins or the QQ flows like water....

Dude such argument is very invlalid. how can you compare a PPC, which does 10 points of damage, to a Improved Artillery strike, that drops 10 shells into area while each shell does 40 damage?

Also i wouldnt really know about this place, as i, unlike you it seems, actually play this game, and dont care about Posts count.

wanderer, on 18 February 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

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Arty/airstrikes on lights and many mediums is meaningless unless you catch them standing still. It can briefly force someone off a cap point, but unless they're not situationally aware, you're not catching them in much or any of the blast unless they're not even thinking to look for the smoke. What they do is break up groups, which is precisely what fire support is supposed to do- force people out of positions, break open stalemates. If the entire team picks up 24 A/A modules? Well, shucks, that's each of them burning 80K trying for the win, and even then, you're going to have smart teams spreading out after the first few barrages come down.
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This is terribly wrong. Some players are master at prediction, and can take down a light or medium with artillery all no problem. Not to mention that MWO map designs stray from precursor of older MW series, which would involve closed and isolated parts of map, where 8 mechs are unable (depends on the weight class) to escape from a potentional second strike, without blocking themselfs, running into each's line of fire.

Craig Steele, on 18 February 2014 - 03:05 PM, said:

I think a lot of people who complain about it are the ones wanting to stay behind that rock forever pop tartining / sniping.

Which is fine to execute that tactic, but artillery represents a real threat to them if they do, and so they argue for a no risk all reward scenario.

Leave it as is or buff it imo, artillery won't hit your head if your maneuvering.

You may or may not be wrong. I use jump sniping tactic. But only reason i do is because its superior battle style above others in most cases at this precise moment.

What im getting at, is that the infinite ammount of strikes rapidly decreases your chance of survival.
Imagine that im at the end of match. Im in a brawl fight, and merely manage to get out withhout my left torso, and by CT being already critically red. Now i can behind corner all i can, but i get artied by 7th strike, because there is still someone whos got some un used, and been waiting whole match, till he actually gets into using some.

Although that is very situational. Doesnt changes my point of view though.

Some of the players keep misundertanding jump sniping with poptarting. From what i can tell, everytime i used JJs to get higher level and increase my line of sight and chances to hit a target, i got automatically occused from poptarting. Even though i wasn't poping only my arms/torso behind a rock or any other object.

But that's just a thought, and really offtopic at this moment.

Edited by MechB Kotare, 19 February 2014 - 03:51 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 18 February 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

should just limit the amount per match. 3 arty & 3 air per match is plenty.

But I like seeing the pretty smoke and big explosions as the enemy misses my Atlas... Again!