14 replies to this topic

[ecued]

how the hell does ECM counter a TAG laser? if it counters a TAG, then why not all laser? i have seen players running around with no ecm and all by themselves, and i still cant target them with tag. whats up with that

[Nick Makiaveli]

ecued, on 24 November 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

how the hell does ECM counter a TAG laser? if it counters a TAG, then why not all laser? i have seen players running around with no ecm and all by themselves, and i still cant target them with tag. whats up with that

First off, it wouldn't counter other lasers since it doesn't stop the beam from hitting. Second, it counters by preventing a mech from sending or receiving information.

That all said, I don't think a TAG affects targeting except for LRMS and then only for lock on etc. I think you want a Beagle Active Probe.

[Junkman7mgte]

ECM doesn't counter tag. If your reticle is lit up " tag on target" your missiles hit just fine. The issue is holding tag - on target - until they hit. I was in my Hunchback with lrm10 w/artemis and tag last night. Several ECM mechs were quite surprised when I was tearing them up.

[Barkem Squirrel]

Just remember your distance from the target or another ECM mech. If you are close enough then the ECM will prevent you from sending the TAG data to others and your own missile.


TAG will target for one second when the laser hits the mech, but you have to keep the laser hitting it to provide guidance or negate the ECM.

Hitting the Atlas D-DC is not too hard, but keeping the TAG on commando's, ravens, cicada's and spider's is a challenge.

Remember Narc and TAG have an additive effect on the number of Missiles that hit and both negate ECM coverage on that mech. Artemis does guide missiles to targets within line of sight, but is nerfed by ECM unless TAG or Narc is used and that mech is not in an ECM field.

Beagle or ECM on counter are the end all to this argument, if a teammate is using it and counters the ECM let the steel rain begin.

[Bront]

1) If the target mech you are aiming at is hit with TAG, ECM will not protect it from gaining a lock, missiles will lock faster, and track better (IE, Bunch more and steer better in the case of LRMs).

2) If you are under an enemy ECM bubble, you can't lock missiles regardless of the locking assistance you have unless you have some kind of counter to it (ECM in counter, BAP).

So, ECM is countered by TAG for any mech able to lock, but ECM prevents locks by mechs it's close to, so they can defeat each other in a way.

[scJazz]

Neat stunt for Master Lurming TAG users...

Lock your target and fire your missiles, duck back to cover, break cover, lock and TAG your Target right before the LRMs hit.

They will get a new set of "Guidance" and come in almost horizontally.

Pulling trick this on a light mech is certain to cause parts to fall off I really can't count the number of light mechs I've legged this way.

It isn't easy though as you basically have to know your range say 600m at launch count to 3 (lrms move at 120m/s) under cover or otherwise then reacquire the target and tag it.

[Koniving]

Combine the information of the 5 posts above me.

Tag does not function beyond 750 meters.

Tag counters ECM up to 750 meters.
At 180 meters and below, TAG cannot function against ECM because ECM jams "all communication" between yourself and your allies. There, your targeting computer gets jammed with extraneous information and cannot function. Your target and all other data does not reach allies. They have no idea you are fighting.

A BAP can counter that problem, allowing you to tag like normal.

If you break your lock after firing missiles and then relock, you can get missiles to do sharp turns around cover. I occasionally wait to relock until after the missiles have gone past the real target (when possible). Waiting until missiles go past the targets will work best against long range targets who are rushing towards you -- this way you can steer the missiles into their backs. Also works fairly well against light mechs, as horizontal is more likely to hit than vertical. Then there's hitting guys in cover who then cry about it after; that's a rich flavor of tears to drink.

Edited by Koniving, 24 November 2013 - 08:14 AM.

[ecued]

yea, i know all that, thanks. the post is made from a sarcastic point of view. i know damn right well ecm doesn't or shouldn't negate tag, but either some players are using an exploit, or down right cheating. this has happened on several occasions and only with specific players, i.e. i could tag everyone else but them.

[Victor Morson]

ecued, on 25 November 2013 - 09:18 PM, said:

yea, i know all that, thanks. the post is made from a sarcastic point of view. i know damn right well ecm doesn't or shouldn't negate tag, but either some players are using an exploit, or down right cheating. this has happened on several occasions and only with specific players, i.e. i could tag everyone else but them.

[Navy Sixes]

scJazz, on 24 November 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

Neat stunt for Master Lurming TAG users...

Lock your target and fire your missiles, duck back to cover, break cover, lock and TAG your Target right before the LRMs hit.

They will get a new set of "Guidance" and come in almost horizontally.

Pulling trick this on a light mech is certain to cause parts to fall off I really can't count the number of light mechs I've legged this way.

It isn't easy though as you basically have to know your range say 600m at launch count to 3 (lrms move at 120m/s) under cover or otherwise then reacquire the target and tag it.

And this is why, though I may try different systems from time to time, I always come back to LRMs as my favorite. With everything else, it seems like once you get putting the cross hairs over the target and learning to lead at distance, all that's left is "the twitch." With LRMs, there always seems like new ways to grow and improve your technique.

I'd never heard of this until now. I can't wait to get a TAG LRM build together and start practicing. Thanks!

[Greyboots]

Nick Makiaveli, on 24 November 2013 - 06:17 AM, said:

First off, it wouldn't counter other lasers since it doesn't stop the beam from hitting. Second, it counters by preventing a mech from sending or receiving information.

It's just a troll post complaining that TAG doesn't work from inside 180m of an ECM.

To be fair, the idea is this:

• A TAG system both sends and receives the beam.
  
• That information is then communicated to other mechs.
  
• If you are within 180m of an ECM unit however, your mech cannot communicate with others preventing it from sharing information.

Which just doesn't gel with the fact that your mech knows because it doesn't need to receive the information from another mech. However, it can't do anything with the information either.

The OP is right. This chain doesn't make logical sense in a "real world" application.

Most of us, however, understand that it's a video game about giant freakin' robots and not everything is going to make absolute sense. Otherwise, we'd all have our knickers in a twist since if we can get 1 AC 20 into the arm of a blackjack or a Thunder Chicken we should be able to fit at least 2 into the torso of an Atlas.

Unless the arms of Blackjacks and Ravens are built using Time Lord technology anyway.

Dah dun, dah dut
Dah dun, Dah dut
Da da da da
Dah dun, dah dut
Dah dun dah dut,
Dah dun dah dut
Woooo EEEEEE OOOOOOOO.....

But... It's bigger on the INSIDE...!

Nick Makiaveli, on 24 November 2013 - 06:17 AM, said:

That all said, I don't think a TAG affects targeting except for LRMS and then only for lock on etc.

TAG does NOT only allow you to target missiles. It provides full functionality of all features of any visible mech

• paper doll damage readout,
  
• weapon list,
  
• location shown on minimap if locked as a target,
  
• All friendly mechs may target the mech and recieve this finctionality regardless of whether they have LRMs.

As near as I can tell all it does is "switch off" the ECM protection flag for that mech allowing it to be targeted like any other mech.

[XxmadcatxX]

ecued, on 24 November 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

how the hell does ECM counter a TAG laser? if it counters a TAG, then why not all laser? i have seen players running around with no ecm and all by themselves, and i still cant target them with tag. whats up with that

I have the same problem my tag doesn't work it doesn't allow my allies to target the person im targeting i have stood there and tagged a Atlas DDC and My buddy couldn't target him

[Koniving]

XxmadcatxX, on 20 February 2014 - 09:35 PM, said:

I have the same problem my tag doesn't work it doesn't allow my allies to target the person im targeting i have stood there and tagged a Atlas DDC and My buddy couldn't target him

A few things:

• TAG has a maximum effective range of 750 meters.
  
• The tag must be on target.
  
• It works like a Battlefield 3 SOFLAM.
  
• Your target (if covered by ECM) must be held on by a constantly fired TAG (in other words if you stop pointing it stops working).
  
• Your target (if the source of ECM) must be outside of 180 meters. Inside, you will be jammed.
  
• Your ally that you are trying to give targeting data to must also be more than 180 meters away from the ECM source.
  
• It generally helps if you and your friend carry a BAP. But remember, BAP only counters for yourself but does not anyone else acquire a lock.
  
• If you cannot overcome this issue, go for the left torso (missile side) of the Atlas. With that side destroyed, the ECM suite will be destroyed.

[Mad Porthos]

Greyboots, on 26 November 2013 - 02:08 AM, said:

...

To be fair, the idea is this:

• A TAG system both sends and receives the beam.
  
• That information is then communicated to other mechs.
  
• If you are within 180m of an ECM unit however, your mech cannot communicate with others preventing it from sharing information.

Which just doesn't gel with the fact that your mech knows because it doesn't need to receive the information from another mech. However, it can't do anything with the information either.



The OP is right. This chain doesn't make logical sense in a "real world" application.

Most of us, however, understand that it's a video game about giant freakin' robots and not everything is going to make absolute sense. Otherwise, we'd all have our knickers in a twist since if we can get 1 AC 20 into the arm of a blackjack or a Thunder Chicken we should be able to fit at least 2 into the torso of an Atlas.

Hey Greyboots, one additional level of this that ECM could be effecting, since you wished to go "real world" explaination or "versimilitude". Indeed, your mech sends the tag laser and recieves the tag laser so damn well should know where the enemy target is, if you tagged it... but if YOU are under ECM and are trying to send missiles to hit something you have tagged, likely your mech can't send the targeting updates that it normally could (TRACKING) to your missiles in flight. So not only can your tagger mech not share what it's tagged with allies when under ECM, it can't really use it's data/intel even for itself, if it has missiles. This you sort of cover by saying, "It can't do anything with this information", but here I think the "realistic" reason is the main thing it would allow would be missile tracking and the ECM jamming prevents relaying data even to your own missiles, that you get from tagging.

Of course BEAGLE can kinda help here as we know for countering one ECM source, and I suppose in the right ranges, I think advanced sensors helps a little, giving an range where outside the 180m of ECM, the ECM covered/cloaked mech CAN be detected and locked on to, out to around 250m (180-250m window).

Edited by Mad Porthos, 21 February 2014 - 12:14 AM.

[Koniving]

Actually given PGI's design of LRMs, Mad Porthos' comment on this is exactly true.

But if someone wanted to compare it to the tabletop or lore... this whole scenario is pretty screwed up.

Spoiler

The manual works a little different. Regular LRMs are completely unaffected by ECM jamming at surface value. "Contemporary guided missiles such as standard LRM or Streak SRMs are not affected by the Guardian suite and will be able to achieve hard lock as normal." Source: Battletech.com (Link).

Also noteworthy, while capable of indirect fire through Ballistic Launch (estimated target location, NO LOCK), standard LRMs cannot achieve indirect hard locks as they do in MWO. A scout would spot grid coordinates for estimated LRM bombardments. That's it. ECM cannot affect this.

Noteworthy continued: LRMs can be hard-locked through line of sight. The general description is that once a hardlock is achieved, LRMs can be fed (depending on the brand name of LRM launcher and missile for most LRM launchers) one of the following: Target's visual profile (can be tricked into hitting something that looks similar), power signature (power down - signature lost, missiles go skyward), ~unknown implied third data feed~.

Noteworthy still continued. Standard LRMs by lore if hardlocked, guided toward their intended target. If hardlocked, ECM does nothing. Where ECM does come into play however is before the hardlock in Ghost Target mode (and no it's not a ghost heat pun) where it produces of ghost targets. Let's say you're targeting an ECM Atlas. Which one? There is only one ECM Atlas, but the computer thinks there are 3... 7.... 10 Atlases in front of you. You'll be trying to sort through which one is the real target for each missile salvo you plan to fire.

(A TAG in theory could come into play there, allowing you to distinguish exactly which one is the real target by pointing at it).

(Also interesting is that ECM jams Beagle Active Probes; but only BAP users would even be aware of being jammed; regular mechs are NOT intended to be aware of it.)

More noteworthiness: Lore-LRMs cannot benefit from TAG (Target Acquisition Gear). There is a separate kind of ammunition called "Semi-Guided." These, without a hardlock, can identify and pursue a TAG much like a Javelin can pursue the target of a SOFLAM in Battlefield 3. Unlike BF3, the hardlock is not required.

Plenty of noteworthiness. In lore, once an LRM is fired by ballistic launch there is nothing more necessary. This includes TAG-seeking Semi-Guided LRMs. Hard-lock however, there is communication to the missile. ECM can affect this.

On TAG, it depends on where you look. ECM apparently does (does not) affect TAG depending on the reference.
It makes some sense to make it harder to use tag if the ECM is near the target; the jamming signals would make it pretty hard for a machine to see the signal of the beam. Near the source, well signals cutting through the beam distorting it.

Final noteworthiness, Artemis only enhances LRMs via visual sight. Specifically "The Artemis IV Fire Control System is a guidance system that utilizes an infrared laser designator and tight-beam microwave transmitter which improves the accuracy of LRMs, SRMs, and MMLs by roughly thirty-five percent." Notice it's essentially a 1 ton tag per launcher and transmitter that both marks the target ~AND~ more directly controls the missiles. ECM jams this.

Two final interesting notes: Artemis requires special ammunition which is sometimes described as more agile. It lists guided missiles as the only ones benefiting (aside from Streaks), and specifically excludes: "As they use different guidance systems, Rocket Launchers, MRMs, Streak launchers, and NARC systems do not require Artemis IV."

MRMs and NARC are described as without guidance. Rocket launchers are simply one use dirt cheap launched explosives. Streaks have their own superior guidance system (despite the only difference between SRM and Streak is that the Streak has an advanced Targa-7 targeting system that will only fire with a solid lock and a predicted 100% possibility of hitting. They are no more or less agile than regular SRMs).

Which then brings me to SRMs.. Guided. Manual says hardlocked but can be fired without the lock, books say standard SRMs have no lock and instead go by heat-seeking -- and are easily tricked by random heat sources. Book also mentions that Artemis introduces a hardlock to them. Both agree that aside from loss of remote control, ECM can't affect basic guidance on SRMs.

Edited by Koniving, 21 February 2014 - 01:42 PM.