55 replies to this topic

[Craig Steele]

Koniving, on 18 February 2014 - 07:32 PM, said:

There's already a 4 UAC/20 capable Battlemech in the lineup of the clan package. There's no such thing as balance if Inner Sphere gets these.

Better make sure all 5 shots are on target

[Lukoi Banacek]

Koniving, on 18 February 2014 - 07:32 PM, said:

There's already a 4 UAC/20 capable Battlemech in the lineup of the clan package. There's no such thing as balance if Inner Sphere gets these.

This just solidifies my point as to why they are going to do 12v12....especially since soooo many "IS" players have bought these Mechs.

[wanderer]

Craig Steele, on 18 February 2014 - 07:24 PM, said:

Wanderer, your entitled to your view but I think I showed in the other thread how you tend to read into the canon what suits your fantasy.

The OP's point is that Binary vs Company is 'canon', and its just not.

Firstly Binaries are NOT a common tactical deployments. Most Clans use Tranaries or Nova's / Supernova's in their front line Clusters.

Front line clusters are what invaded the Inner sphere.

Therefore, by far the predominant tactical deployment is a (wait for it) Trinary.

I have never said Binaries are not canon, I have and will continue to maintain they are not a common tactical deployment in the type of battles MW:O represents.

Here. Straight from a novel. Two of em, even. I highlighted the word "Binary" so you'd find it even easier.

http://books.google....0binary&f=false

http://books.google....0binary&f=false

While you're at it, the Great Refusal? The hallmark fight between a company of IS 'Mechs and the Wolf Binary led by Vlad Ward?

Oh, and First Strike also uses Clan Binaries as the units for fighting against- yes, you guessed it, companies. Again, straight from Catalyst.

There are plentiful, canonical examples of Binary vs. Company deployments, combat, up to and included the very elite of Clan Wolf in the combat that determined whether the Wolves would be able to invade the Inner Sphere after the Truce. There are plenty of examples of Clan forces being fielded as Binaries, period.

I deride you, sir because your opinion is not even remotely fact, and you have apparently repeatedly ignored examples that contradict your opinions being disproven. Yes, Clan forces deployed in Trinary formations- AND Binary ones, the latter being how the tabletop game repeatedly balances fights against a company-sized IS force. Your insinuation that such are non-canon and non-viable is false.

Edited by wanderer, 18 February 2014 - 07:45 PM.

[Craig Steele]

The other side to this whole argument is why are we all struggling to balancing the Clans to an IS company.

We could just as easily be arguing for an IS force to balance a typical Clan formation like a Star.

5 Omni mechs assymentrical against 2 lances (8 IS mechs)

All the theories and RP instances for a reduced company engagement are just as valid

Bid away a star to get 10 vs send a lance on a long flanking move and got beaten by raw speed to the engagement)

We can make up any old trash to justify it, and its the same outcome.

We're trying to get a balanced game using assymetrical drops. 5 vs 8 allows a greater degree of "OP" on individual Clan mechs.

I still think it will end up with more players in Clan mechs, but if your argument is a canon experience focussed on the Clan mechs being OP, here's a way to make a case.

[Panthros]

Craig Steele, on 18 February 2014 - 07:43 PM, said:

The other side to this whole argument is why are we all struggling to balancing the Clans to an IS company.

We could just as easily be arguing for an IS force to balance a typical Clan formation like a Star.

5 Omni mechs assymentrical against 2 lances (8 IS mechs)

All the theories and RP instances for a reduced company engagement are just as valid

Bid away a star to get 10 vs send a lance on a long flanking move and got beaten by raw speed to the engagement)

We can make up any old trash to justify it, and its the same outcome.

We're trying to get a balanced game using assymetrical drops. 5 vs 8 allows a greater degree of "OP" on individual Clan mechs.

I still think it will end up with more players in Clan mechs, but if your argument is a canon experience focussed on the Clan mechs being OP, here's a way to make a case.

A star (5 for who is counting) and two lances (8) is interesting as well, though now we are 3 mechs off and people do not seem to like that idea of 2. When I see a disconnect in a pug drop, that just means everyone needs to play smarter, same with different IS and Clan drops. Tactics change when there are not as many mechs, or different weight of mechs brought.

I think as I read everyone's thoughts on the topic I brought to the table, I see different thoughts on what is Clan. For some, they are just happy to bring Clan mechs to the game and use them. For others, like myself, I want more than just Clan mechs. I want a Clan feel to the game, is that too much to ask? This conversation can cause PGI to pause and let them know perhaps some in the community want more than just Clan mechs.

How else can you bring a Clan feel but bring at least a star? Perhaps there is another way and I look forward to everyone's comments but I do not see one.

Edited by Panthros, 18 February 2014 - 07:53 PM.

[Koniving]

Craig Steele, on 18 February 2014 - 07:37 PM, said:

Better make sure all 5 shots are on target

8 shots. 2 per gun. All 8 doing 20 damage. That's what terrifies me. They need to split the damage of ACs and UACs. 4 UAC/20s is gonna be nasty.

Edited by Koniving, 18 February 2014 - 07:58 PM.

[Craig Steele]

wanderer, on 18 February 2014 - 07:40 PM, said:

Here. Straight from a novel. Two of em, even. I highlighted the word "Binary" so you'd find it even easier.

http://books.google....0binary&f=false

http://books.google....0binary&f=false

While you're at it, the Great Refusal? The hallmark fight between a company of IS 'Mechs and the Wolf Binary led by Vlad Ward? There's another example in TRO 3062 (Atlas-K entry) describing a company vs. Binary fight.

Oh, and First Strike also uses Clan Binaries as the units for fighting against- yes, you guessed it, companies. Again, straight from Catalyst.

There are plentiful, canonical examples of Binary vs. Company deployments, combat, up to and included the very elite of Clan Wolf in the combat that determined whether the Wolves would be able to invade the Inner Sphere after the Truce. There are plenty of examples of Clan forces being fielded as Binaries, period.

I deride you, sir because your opinion is not even remotely fact, and you have apparently repeatedly ignored examples that contradict your opinions being disproven. Yes, Clan forces deployed in Trinary formations- AND Binary ones, the latter being how the tabletop game repeatedly balances fights against a company-sized IS force. Your insinuation that such are non-canon and non-viable is false.

Seriously, you're quoting 3061 trials and Dark Age novels to support your argument for the TO&E's during the Invasion of 3050 - 52? You're familiar with the timeline aren't you?

Again, I get how you prefer your fantasy world and you are grasping at any slim basis that might substantiate your preferred view.

But the TO&E's and operational deployments by the Clans during the Invasion were in the majority Trinary based formations. To use Clan Jade Falcon as an example (only cause that book is right here) Every Front Line Cluster was all Trinaries (btw, this source book details TO&E's down to individual pilot and mech type). There is ONE Binary in the Jade Falcon Solhama Cluster (Aerospace) and two Clusters in the Vau Galaxy that are ALL Binaries, the Solhama and Eyrie CLusters. Neither of these two Vau clusters engaged IS mech formations during the invasions

The majority of drops by Clan forces were Trinaries

The majority of engagements were Trinaries

I am not arguing for Trinaries to be the basis of MW:O.

I am submitting that quoting Binaries vs Companies as a support for 10 v 12 is not Canon in 3050 - 52.

PS, my opinion is based on the Source books that cover the timeframe. Not Sarna fan boy and not future TO&E's. Pretty comfortable that it can be relied upon.

Edited by Craig Steele, 18 February 2014 - 07:59 PM.

[Panthros]

Craig Steele, on 18 February 2014 - 07:53 PM, said:

I am submitting that quoting Binaries vs Companies as a support for 10 v 12 is not Canon in 3050 - 52.

But PGI has drastically changed Clan mechs to be more balanced with the Inner Sphere mechs so perhaps a concession can be made. Through Batchall, the Trinary gets trimmed down to be no more than 10 mechs. Again another way to demonstrate a Clan drop.

[Craig Steele]

Panthros, on 18 February 2014 - 07:59 PM, said:

But PGI has drastically changed Clan mechs to be more balanced with the Inner Sphere mechs so perhaps a concession can be made. Through Batchall, the Trinary gets trimmed down to be no more than 10 mechs. Again another way to demonstrate a Clan drop.

Yup, I get the technology argument and tbh, I am not against it.

I just think these things should be debated on their merits and not on throw away lines like "canon says" especially when Canon just simply doesn't support it.

If anyone wants to support their view, support it with facts (as if a make believe Sci -Fi canon is fact anyway, LOL)

[Craig Steele]

And just because I would hate for there to be doubt,

Gost Bear Invasions touman was all trinaries and SuperNovas. There are a couple of SuperNova's that contain 10 mechs (btw, Nova is 5 mechs + 25 elementals)

There are Aerospace and Elemental Binaries but no Omnimechs Binaries in the GB Invasion TO&E 3050 - 52

Smoke Jaguar all trinaries

Elemental and Aerospace Binaries in the main, but Omnimechs all trinary formations

Steel Viper, all trinaries, the whole TO&E.

Novacat, Binaries in Aerospace and elemental forces infrequently.

One Mech Binary in the 179th Striker Cluster
One Mech Binary in the 274th Battle Cluster
One "artillery" Binary

Clan Wolf primarily Trinaries and Super Nova's.

Two Binaries 328th Assault Cluster, one Rogue and one Artillery.
Binary Artillery in Beta Galaxy command
Binary in 11th Wolf Guards Cluster

(Ineresting, all Wolf second line Clusters were full trinaries)

Thats it from the Sourcebooks that detail the Invading forces TO&E's up to and including Tukayyid, I count 7 Binaries including 3 Artillery (Naga's I am guessing without checking) in front line Clusters.

So again I submit that Binaries do exist in Canon, but in the Invasion of the Inner Sphere the most predominate tactical deployment was the Trinary.

Yes there are any number of RP things that could generate the Binary engagement that would support the argument, bidding, scattered drop, mis communication etc. But if you're going to argue that those are the 'norm' it's equally valid the other side. Bad lubricants used in servicing, went the wrong way, etc etc.

In the vast majority of battle descriptions the general flow was RCT / Regiment, full cluster or more deployed, less than that would be a Trinary or 2 with the Cluster command (majority, there are notable examples otherwise)

And to be clear, these forces were deployed to take the planet, not defeat / hunt opposition forces across the face of the world. The forces deployed and went towards the critical target (capital, spaceport, industry etc) with the expectation the enemy would come for them with their full capability, because thats how Clans fight. They crushed whatever came their way and then took the planet.

Their was no , "wait, its only a company defending the capital, lets bid down a star to make it a better match up" That just didn't happen in canon. The deployed forces took their objective as ordered.

Indeed canon spefically details that for Clan Ghost Bear and Smoke Jaguar in particular, their forces were stretched due to guerilla actions by 'left overs'. Wolf and Jade Falcon had their share of those too.

There is simply no basis that in 3050 - 3055 or thereabouts, that Binaries were the predominate force fielded by the Clans in canon.

Now after the Refusal war and the supporting Clans getting actived, yes trinaries started to erode a little. Supply was tight and heavy losses were not part of the planning so Binaries become more common. Still not a majority, but certainly more common. Just like IIC battlemechs started to replace Omni mechs in some clusters.

btw, for you Wolf fans that Binary Rogue of the 328th was 5 Gargoyles, 4 Timberwolves and one Fenris (I forgot it's Clan name, sorry) which is a serious blitzkreig unit right there. LOL

Edited by Craig Steele, 18 February 2014 - 09:20 PM.

[Lindonius]

GalaxyBluestar, on 18 February 2014 - 07:36 PM, said:

the account split up isn't necessary, just add faction allegiance choices in the menu under factions. instead of coming to the website to do it,

[Khobai]

Quote

There's already a 4 UAC/20 capable Battlemech in the lineup of the clan package. There's no such thing as balance if Inner Sphere gets these.

x4 UAC/20 is a joke build though. Daishis get 50.5 tons of pod space... UAC20s are 12 tons each, so that leaves you with 2 tons of ammo.

Although x3 UAC20 + 10 tons of ammo + x4 ERML is entirely possible.

[xengk]

Mcgral18, on 18 February 2014 - 06:21 PM, said:

On River City...I can only imagine. What mayhem it would be with collisions....

Artillery Wonderland.

[N0MAD]

You are all over thinking this.
Seriously, PGI isnt capable of balancing IS mechs, look at the many useless mechs and weapons now. The clan mechs are being nerfed to hell because balancing them is not in their capability. All players will have acces to clan tech in battles, you have already been told that CW is no more than pug matches you pick a faction for, drop in a pug battle on an outlaying periphery planet and faction points willl be added to that planet. Clan mechs are going to be nothing more than a skin in this game. Lets face it PGI will have to put in private lobbies so that 3rd party leagues can spring up or this game will continue in the decline its in.
Ohh are we seeing the rats exiting the ship, Garth?

[Bagheera]

5v8 and 10v12 have been discussed as options since closed beta, but I really doubt that will be the path taken.

They sort of shot their own foot by releasing the clan mechs before implementing clans as factions - if the clanners could have chosen their clan from the outset then the whole "But what about IS players that buy clan mechs?" thing becomes a fringe argument from a small group of folks. While those folks would still insist they should get their clan mech in their IS house, their position would be tenuous at best since the option to choose one clan or the other had existed from the outset. Sure, it means the FRR would have had half the population it's had - but at least we'd know the ones we had were loyal!

They've sort of painted themselves into a corner on clan mechs. It's cool though, I got no dog in this fight, about the only thing that would annoy me is if they brought in clanner tech in it's full munchkin glory and didn't resize the teams to compensate. Safe (mostly?) to say that's not going to happen, so I'll have more popcorn while you guys who want to actually use clan mechs duke it out.

Edited by Bagheera, 19 February 2014 - 12:24 AM.

[meteorol]

No need to worry, we will have more than enough 10vs12 matches.
I mean, we are playing 10vs12 all the time right now, why should they change it?