195 replies to this topic

[Foxfire]

Varent, on 21 February 2014 - 05:44 PM, said:

You could also make the burst fire one have a FASTER reload time so that you dont get people complaining over the chunking one. Make one more about high FLD and the other about more dps.

Makes both parties happy, adds variety.


And I dont think either should be better or worse. They should be situational. One should have advantages over the other in certain situations.

The problem is that weapons that front load damage will always be better in a game like this. Especially given the lack of a robust convergence system.

The only way you could balance them out is to give the single shot weapons such a huge and dangerous disadvantage to make up for the huge advantage that they will apply full damage in an instant.

[Joseph Mallan]

stjobe, on 21 February 2014 - 05:07 PM, said:

These two guns also come up again and again, so let's have a look at them.

First up, the Chemjet 185mm AC/20. In the first place, it is not a 'mech-mounted weapon; it's mounted on the Monitor Surface Vessel (a boat) and on the Demolisher Heavy Tank. But more importantly, while the original description in TRO:3026 didn't specify number of rounds per burst, Era Report 3025 does:


So that's the Chemjet out of the way; it's a four-round burst weapon.

Next up, and the single sliver of hope for the single-shot AC theory, the 203mm AC/20 mounted on the Cauldron Born A: It's an UAC/20, not a regular AC. Whether it fires single-shot or not is not really fluffed anywhere; what is fluffed is that the Cauldron Born A has to brace itself when it fires it lest it fall over - so one might suspect that if it is a burst it is a very short and/or very quick one. It is never stated anywhere that it is a single-shot weapon though.

However, Era Report 3025 then goes on to say:


And there you have it, in black on white (or white on black); if an AC fires a 200kg shell, it's a single-shot AC/20. The possibility exists, I have to concede the point.

The fact still remains though, that not one AC has ever been fluffed as being single-shot, and exactly one UAC/20 is in doubt. Every other AC ever described has been described as burst- or continuous-fire.


But that's really beside the point; I don't want burst-fire ACs because they fit better with lore, I want burst-fire ACs because they'd make MWO a better game, easier to balance and with more equality between weapon types. As it is, the ACs and PPCs are enjoying a rather unnecessary advantage simply due to the way they deliver damage.

Thanks for that full text from the era report. I would be very capable to play by the described restriction of 200Kg per bust/shot. So long as I can get my single shot 200Kg. Even if it meant I would have to change the AC20 on my Atlas/Victor/Hunchback to get it. AND I'd even be willing to wait to receive said cannon to arrive from which ever planet would need to ship it to me.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 22 February 2014 - 11:03 AM.

[Varent]

stjobe, on 22 February 2014 - 02:21 AM, said:

There is no 10 second turn in MWO, so you're not making much sense. Every shot from an AC does the full damage with a single projectile.


Except that you cut the cooldown down to 1 second (and therefore more than doubled the DPS), you've basically described the burst-fire mechanic I've been talking about.

dakkadakkadakka - wait for cooldown - dakkadakkadakka - wait for cooldown.

If it has cooldown, it's not full auto; full auto is continuous-fire like the MG.

you dont doubel the dps, you do however increase it dramatically but it comes at the cost of having to hold on target for 2 seconds. and I wouldnt make it full auto because it would be abit op.

That said your not disagreeing with me I take it that this would be a good option? and it would allow the other weapon to be in play too?

Foxfire, on 22 February 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

The problem is that weapons that front load damage will always be better in a game like this. Especially given the lack of a robust convergence system.

The only way you could balance them out is to give the single shot weapons such a huge and dangerous disadvantage to make up for the huge advantage that they will apply full damage in an instant.

I jsut described several ways you could create more playstyles with different weapons of the same caliber. You dont have to change the main weapon, just give more options. You could do this very easily with lasers too honestly.

[Foxfire]

It would be pointless to add variants at that point. The meta would still be based around the single slug variants because being able to guarantee full application of damage on a single spot is just too powerful in this game.

[Varent]

Foxfire, on 22 February 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

It would be pointless to add variants at that point. The meta would still be based around the single slug variants because being able to guarantee full application of damage on a single spot is just too powerful in this game.

Varent, on 22 February 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

I jsut described several ways you could create more playstyles with different weapons of the same caliber. You dont have to change the main weapon, just give more options. You could do this very easily with lasers too honestly.

[Foxfire]

And I've read through your descriptions.

Anything short of giving single slug AC's a chance of exploding per shot will keep it as king of the heap because the mechanic would be inherently better than any variant mechanics(not to mention that your #3 suggestion is a separate type of AC that will exist in the universe anyways). Just look at the issue with trying to achieve balance between AC's and beams.. anything short of making beams 0 duration will keep them as inferior weapons to AC's, Gausses, and PPC's.

[Varent]

Foxfire, on 22 February 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

And I've read through your descriptions.

Anything short of giving single slug AC's a chance of exploding per shot will keep it as king of the heap because the mechanic would be inherently better than any variant mechanics(not to mention that your #3 suggestion is a separate type of AC that will exist in the universe anyways). Just look at the issue with trying to achieve balance between AC's and beams.. anything short of making beams 0 duration will keep them as inferior weapons to AC's, Gausses, and PPC's.

thats untrue. the only thing that makes ppc ac and gause king is jump jets.

[Mcgral18]

Varent, on 22 February 2014 - 11:53 AM, said:

thats untrue. the only thing that makes ppc ac and gause king is jump jets.

False, it's the fact that they are both frontloaded and pinpoint.

Different varients would be possible, but unless they have a severe DPS drop, the single shot will be king. 5-7 second AC20 would be needed, with the other varients being the current AC60/5DPS variant. That wouldn't be a very popular weapon.

[Foxfire]

Which is why they were so rare before pop-tarting came along... oh wait, no, they were just as common.

Gauss and AC's have been king of the hill since closed beta, from the days of the gaussapult till today. It was PPC boating, for example, that pretty much singlehandedly led to the introduction of ghost heat when the stalker came along. The game will always gravitate towards instant application weapons over duration weapons as long as they exist simply because having the ability to guarantee that full application of damage on a single component is that good in this game.

[Varent]

Mcgral18, on 22 February 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

False, it's the fact that they are both frontloaded and pinpoint.

Different varients would be possible, but unless they have a severe DPS drop, the single shot will be king. 5-7 second AC20 would be needed, with the other varients being the current AC60/5DPS variant. That wouldn't be a very popular weapon.

True, lasers are also pin point. frontloaded damage is only king when there is such a short time to respond to it (ie jump sniping)

[Foxfire]

Varent, on 22 February 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

True, lasers are also pin point. frontloaded damage is only king when there is such a short time to respond to it (ie jump sniping)

But you cannot prevent damage spread. Any pilot worth their salt will spread the damage from beam weapons and missiles.

[Varent]

Foxfire, on 22 February 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

Which is why they were so rare before pop-tarting came along... oh wait, no, they were just as common.

Gauss and AC's have been king of the hill since closed beta, from the days of the gaussapult till today. It was PPC boating, for example, that pretty much singlehandedly led to the introduction of ghost heat when the stalker came along. The game will always gravitate towards instant application weapons over duration weapons as long as they exist simply because having the ability to guarantee that full application of damage on a single component is that good in this game.

that is untrue, in fact there was alot of people building rather large laser boats before that time, also LRMS were a major thing for quite abit. the META as it stands now is what it is because the highlander and victor came about and smoked the competition with there baility to jump snipe.

There is a reason they are the mechs seen in high elo and the reason the devs have already said they are going to tweak them, Its not hard to see what the real problem is.

Foxfire, on 22 February 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:

But you cannot prevent damage spread. Any pilot worth their salt will spread the damage from beam weapons and missiles.

wich is also why lasers way so much less and take up less room.

That said you are noticing the major problems because jump sniping. Not because of FLD.

[Foxfire]

Ok then.. lets have a little test then.

Wait to for the adjustments to come along and see what the meta flocks to... I guarantee that(unless there is significant nerfing of the weapons between now and then) it will still be AC and PPC based builds.

[Varent]

Foxfire, on 22 February 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

Ok then.. lets have a little test then.

Wait to for the adjustments to come along and see what the meta flocks to... I guarantee that(unless there is significant nerfing of the weapons between now and then) it will still be AC and PPC based builds.

If they do the changes properly and significantly reduce thrust/change the way jump jets work. to the point that jump sniping is actually hard to do or unable to do in large groups then yes i will guarantee you will see quite a few changes. Though they need to fix hit detection on srm as well since thats one of the primary brawling weapons. Pulse lasers could also use tweaking.

[Foxfire]

There are a lot of changes that are needed.. but if they changed jump sniping alone, which is what you are saying is the problem, that will do nothing to discourage people from using AC and PPC's as their main weapons in builds.

[Varent]

Foxfire, on 22 February 2014 - 12:13 PM, said:

There are a lot of changes that are needed.. but if they changed jump sniping alone, which is what you are saying is the problem, that will do nothing to discourage people from using AC and PPC's as their main weapons in builds.

the thing is, thos weapons are great when you can jump, fire a quick shot and then reatreat. They are not great when you have to crest a ridge, fire, and then slide down a ridge again. WIchis the way you take advantage of the range advantage.

its a dominant meta because you can do this over and over again and weaken brawlers coming in on you with little risk. If they alter jump jets to the point that this becomes more difficult, then the brawlers dont take the same damag coming in. With this being the case brawlers are allowed to play there roll once more. Some of the best brawling weapons are srm, medium lasers, and ac. PPC and gause are not on that list. and to be honest SRM are greater then all ac overall for there weight and heat at close ranges.

[Foxfire]

The best brawling weapon is the AC. SRM's are buggy on hit detection right now and if they fixed hit detection, the damage they do will be dropped back down(the damage they do now is artificially inflated because of the hit detection issue). Medium lasers are good weapons because they have a balance of good damage, heat, and range and you need to have some weapon to use in between firing the big shots.

I think you will find that the majority of brawling builds will be built around the AC/20 as the main weapon.

That and getting rid of jump sniping will not get rid of sniping.. and having the ability to fire and go for cover again, which is what the Gauss and PPC offers you, is still the prefered way to go with those builds.

I know my brawler builds use the AC 20/s or paired AC/10s as the main weapon(s) and using the other weapons as filler between shots to maintain a level of fire. I also fully recognize that without the AC's, my ability to brawl effectively will be significantly reduced.

[stjobe]

Varent, on 22 February 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

If they do the changes properly and significantly reduce thrust/change the way jump jets work. to the point that jump sniping is actually hard to do or unable to do in large groups then yes i will guarantee you will see quite a few changes.

Another way to reduce jump sniping is, of course, to remove instant-damage weapons by making ACs burst-fire and PPCs beam duration.

So tell me again how it's all the fault of the jump jet?

As a gedankenexperiment, imagine what would happen if we made lasers continuous-fire weapons; would they be better or worse than today given they had the same DPS?

It's not just that instant-damage applies its damage better, it also allows the firer to focus solely on (defensive) maneuvering apart from the instant he lines up and takes his shot (and this is where your jump-jet theory fits in).

Now lets list our weapons:

In order of how much time you have to maneuver between shots:
1. ACs, PPCs, Gauss, SRMs (you can twist away as soon as you've pulled the trigger).
2. Lasers (you have to stay on target for the duration of the beam, but can twist away during cooldown).
3. MG (you have to stay on target period, twist away and you lose DPS).

In order of effectiveness of damage application:
1. ACs, PPCs, Gauss (all damage instantly).
2. Lasers (damage spread over beam duration).
3. Missiles and MG (damage spread over time and/or cone of fire/missile spread).

Would you look at that, the meta-favoured weapons are number 1 in both categories. Huh, who'da thunk?

Edit: In fact, if all our weapons were continuous-fire we'd have to make a tough choice as to whether to damage our target or to protect ourselves; that kind of choice is rarely present in the current MWO.

Edited by stjobe, 22 February 2014 - 12:35 PM.

[wanderer]

Varent, on 21 February 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

Apparently you have never worked for a publishing company or dont long writeups for a major corporation. I have.

you do realize many writers are given alot of lee-way to write there own flavor into things and as long as a corporation gives it a check mark in passing that becomes canon. This means that if a writer wants to describe something to make it look cool, he can put in whatever he feels will be appropriate. Now in relation to a machine gun. (wich btw is a description of a type of weapon fire, not an actual weapon). You are describing a usually inaccurate weapon that fires large amounts of ordinance with a large spread. Thats great except in battletech this is not the case whatsoever. If you want to go to the core of the game damage is applied from an ac to one section of a mech, not multiple sections.

You realize that AC's being burst fire is an actual rule in Battletech, not just fluff? That it's been explictly stated that AC's deal damage to one section simply to be, well, not so many rolls and that anything higher than a single short burst IS divided between multiple locations? That even a single "shot" of AC fire can be split between multiple hexes? That the description in the actual rulebook is for a burst of shells, in fact in -multiple- rulebooks and sourcebooks for the game?

This is a level of self-denial akin to saying "In BT, lasers are actually a stream of colored water that just meeeelts the armor away!"

MWO is the most modern version of the computer game version of BT. If earlier versions made shortcuts due to technical issues, why shouldn't we want the most current one to not take those shortcuts and make the game more like Battletech?

[xMEPHISTOx]

Even if they were to nerf it all as some would like the people who are currently doing the r@ping would still be r@ping after said nerfs, it is not the weapons but the skills of those using them, be it sniping or brawling. Stop crying.

Edited by xMEPHISTOx, 22 February 2014 - 03:10 PM.