19 replies to this topic

[Morrey]

Sorry if this question sounds stupid. I've never played an MMO or whatever we are calling MWO or for that matter electronic games in general. I played a little MW4 about 6 years ago to keep in touch with a friend but that's about it. Hopefully with practice I'll be better at MWO than I was at MW4

This answer confused me, unless the Devs were talking about speed, maneuverability and close combat.

Q: What is being done to combat issues where mechs become obsolete - for example in World of Tanks where you have rank 1 to 10 of tanks but really only ranks 8-10 are played and lower tanks are just seen as fodder. Is that a concern?

A: A very big concern for us was that Lighter 'Mechs would perform poorly against larger ones, and what we've done is make it so that each tier is equal to every other tier of 'Mechs - in this case, Light 'Mechs such as the Jenner pose a large risk to Atlas', and Hunchbacks are just as deadly as Catapults. You'll never run into a situation where you 'cannot damage' an opponent (other than losing all your weapons of course.) [GARTH]

[Themo]

pretty much is talking about speed and maneuverability yeah.

[Vulpesveritas]

light mechs by what the devs are faster, have faster torso twist, (I think) faster alignment of torso weapons, and are of course faster overall... plus with the hardpoint system you could put a large laser or PPC on a jenner and pick the time and place of engagements and use hit-and-run sniping. Plus if you added ECM to that jenner it's even more deadly I would think.

I think that's why.

[skamage]

I think you are thinking on the same lines as me. With added speed and maneuverability, you will still pose a risk to a heavy or assault mech. I don't think they are saying a light can stand toe-to-toe with a heavy or assault, just that in a light you will still be able to put some damage on them and potentially destroy them if you play right.

[Kobold]

The problem in WoT as I understand it is that there are lower tier (often older tech, like WW1 tanks) tanks that simply CANNOT HURT the higher tier tanks. Their shots just bounce off.

MWO (and tabletop BT) isn't like that. Light mechs with a medium laser do the same damage as an assault mech with a medium laser. Generally the advantage of your assault mech is you carry more guns and more armor (which is more like hit points in battletech, compared to stuff that keeps you from getting hurt).

[FactorlanP]

I took it to mean that unlike World of Tanks, you could use your original Mech for your entire MWO career and remain a factor on the battlefield. In World of Tanks, I believe the tank you start in becomes increasingly obsolete as you advance.

[Fury]

To use an EVE reference. If you're in a very large ship with very large guns you'll never hit the really small ships because they move too fast. Okay, they don't have so heavy weapons but so long as they can do any damage at all they can still kill you... whereas you can't kill them.

[Project_Mercy]

Mechs are built based on how heavy they are. The total weight of the mech is used to determine the engine in it, what armament it can carry, how much armor is on it, etc. They will range from (roughly) 5 tons to 100 tons in 5-ton increments (You rarely will see something below 20 tons). More tons (generally) means more weapons, more armor, and slower.

The INTENT of the Q/A is this:

If there are 100-ton mechs (which have a lot more armor and weapons on them), and the only real game-style currently is team death match (which is roughly all there is right now, with the bonus of having to defend your 'base'), then what's to stop everyone from all taking 100-ton mechs, and just sitting around blasting people. This means all the other mechs would be useless, and new players would basically have to go through hell (or buy something better) before being able to compete.

This is roughly what happened to MPBT:3025. Or would have, if it actually had gone live.

The Answer is saying: "We realize this is a problem, and so we're attempting to balance the maps and the mechs around there being a viable reason and need for players from mechs of all size to play the game"

Edited by Wraeththix Constantine, 25 June 2012 - 11:26 AM.

[Mu]

The four medium lasers on a Jenner are the same as the four medium lasers on an Atlas. Just, the latter can take more hits and mount more of OTHER weapons. You're right though, they were talking about speed and maneuverability - the Jenner could use its speed to get in close to the Atlas and wreak havoc on its weak rear armor while the Atlas is nearly helpless due to its slow torso twist speed.

Also certain mechs have other vulnerabilities...the Atlas' red-eyed skull face may be big and scary but I'd bet that it makes an easy target for headshots.

[Morrey]

What does the reference to "Tier" mean?

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Kobold, on 25 June 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

The problem in WoT as I understand it is that there are lower tier (often older tech, like WW1 tanks) tanks that simply CANNOT HURT the higher tier tanks. Their shots just bounce off.

MWO (and tabletop BT) isn't like that. Light mechs with a medium laser do the same damage as an assault mech with a medium laser. Generally the advantage of your assault mech is you carry more guns and more armor (which is more like hit points in battletech, compared to stuff that keeps you from getting hurt).

Yeah theres no glancing shots or "damn it didnt penetrate" here

[WardenWolf]

Kobold, on 25 June 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

The problem in WoT as I understand it is that there are lower tier (often older tech, like WW1 tanks) tanks that simply CANNOT HURT the higher tier tanks. Their shots just bounce off.

MWO (and tabletop BT) isn't like that. Light mechs with a medium laser do the same damage as an assault mech with a medium laser. Generally the advantage of your assault mech is you carry more guns and more armor (which is more like hit points in battletech, compared to stuff that keeps you from getting hurt).

This is correct. WoT tries to model real-world ballistic and armor interaction, and does so relatively well (for the sort of game it is). That means smaller guns simply do *nothing* to a big tank, save perhaps damaging the treads. In the BT universe and MWO that sort of thing doesn't get taken into account at all, and since all the mechs have access to the same weapons they can all be a threat.

Further, with the role warfare aspect the Devs are aiming for a situation where you need a balanced force in order to have the best chance of winning. A team of all heavies / assaults, with no scouts to act as eyes, will be blind to threats out of their immediate line of sight. Likewise, a team of all scouts would eventually get picked off one by one before they could take out all of a well-balanced team's heavier units. It is all about combined arms and teamwork, folks, and every mech will have a role to play

[Mu]

Morrey, on 25 June 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

What does the reference to "Tier" mean?

Refers to the tonnage class of the mech.

Light (20-35 tons)
Medium (40-55 tons)
Heavy (60-75 tons)
Assault (80-100 tons)

Bigger mech means more armor, more weapons, and generally less speed. In previous mechwarrior games people tended to gravitate to the larger classes but their point is that they want the lighter ones to be just as viable in MWO.

[Morrey]

Thanks for your help.

[Redshift2k5]

What they are saying is simpyl this:

light mechs can kill assault mechs.

There are no 'tiers', only different strategies. light and fast vs big and slow, and there is no mech that will always win (or always lose).

[Felicitatem Parco]

There is no "progression" from Light to Assault, there is only "change."

Every Mech will always have its role, and no Mech will ever be "obsolete."

[Thrael]

Hmm, looks like not many tried WoT
This dev's answer a bit asimetrical. In WoT tanks become obsolete because of armor and guns which they can carry, not because of the role(light tanks).
So if we set analogies with WoT in MWO all tanks are at the same tier. They have almost the same amount of armor and hp and can carry the same guns.
Only problem is light tanks, which even in MWO just can not put the punch. And they will be balanced the same way as in WoT.
They become eyes of the team and protects vulnerable "artilery"(something which heavily utilise LRMs with minor armor) from lights. Also they can haras dueling havies sometimes.
I have a better win rate on a light then on any heavy tank. They are credit to team ©

[mrcarlton]

To clarify some info about WoT, as some people are posting incorrect info about its tier system:

• Tiers are used for match making. Tiers need to be purchased and researched from the tanks below them. You have to research in order. i.e Russian heavy tree; ms-1 -> t-26 -> t-46 -> t-28 -> kv-1 -> etc...
  
• Because the research and xp requirements to get higher tier tanks scales dramatically, high tier tanks are most effective when fighting other high tier tanks instead of herp derping low tiers (in practice this doesn't prevent people from shooting you).
  
• Higher tiers are more expensive, have higher repair bills, and ammo costs more. You also gain more money/xp from damaging and killing higher tiers in comparison to lower tiers. Therefore tier 5-6 are the most cost effective tanks, as their average returns are usually higher than their repair bills (even on a bad game), and they earn more money per kill/hit on enemies.
  
• Matches you with a roughly equal tier (not equal tank), certain types of tanks get paired with specific types of tanks. i.e lights get paired with other lights and arty (not always but usually)
  
• The higher the tier the in-general 'better' the tank, but this doesn't mean you demolish tier 1s and a tier 10, as you likely wont see any in your match making.

TLDR: WoT Match Making is bullshit, 80% of the time. But understandably everyone can't be top tier all the time... tier 6-7 mediums do not belong in tier 10 heavy matches. The game always turns into a 'bigger tank always wins' as a 12.8 cm can 1-2 shot any tier 6-7. Tier 3-4 scouts do not belong in tier 6-8 matches as their view range and top speeds are worse than most tier 8 heavies and mediums.

Edited by mrcarlton, 25 June 2012 - 11:56 AM.

[Elizander]

Morrey, on 25 June 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

Sorry if this question sounds stupid. I've never played an MMO or whatever we are calling MWO or for that matter electronic games in general. I played a little MW4 about 6 years ago to keep in touch with a friend but that's about it. Hopefully with practice I'll be better at MWO than I was at MW4

This answer confused me, unless the Devs were talking about speed, maneuverability and close combat.

Q: What is being done to combat issues where mechs become obsolete - for example in World of Tanks where you have rank 1 to 10 of tanks but really only ranks 8-10 are played and lower tanks are just seen as fodder. Is that a concern?

A: A very big concern for us was that Lighter 'Mechs would perform poorly against larger ones, and what we've done is make it so that each tier is equal to every other tier of 'Mechs - in this case, Light 'Mechs such as the Jenner pose a large risk to Atlas', and Hunchbacks are just as deadly as Catapults. You'll never run into a situation where you 'cannot damage' an opponent (other than losing all your weapons of course.) [GARTH]

I think this mostly refers to shells bouncing off and having absolutely no chance to fight or hurt the opposing mech unlike how things go in WoT (due to huge differences in armor/health/damage from Tier 1 to 10). You are smaller, you will die faster, but your four lasers hurt just as much as the Atlas' four lasers so if you can avoid being hit in a Jenner then you can put a dent in the big guys.

[Arafinar]

All mechs have a job, lights would be scout and/or close in and tie up big mechs so
lance mates can blast away and/kill other scouts. I dont see how that can change much.

Its not like WoT where ya get bounce off, so you are still doing dmg.