225 replies to this topic

[Ransack]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 February 2014 - 02:58 AM, said:

Its called a wager. My side would put up X C-bills your side would match or Exceed it. Winner take all. Both sides get XP cause they battled and thus gained experience.

I like that idea. How would the winnings be split though, equal shares for all?

[RichAC]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 February 2014 - 11:34 AM, said:

I an see this as reasonable. Its a good place to start!

Only if they don't get XP for it

[Joseph Mallan]

RichAC, on 21 February 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

But sportsmanship this is the key understanding you personally lack! I think maybe like Joseph, you only have "gamesmanship"

Oh I have both Sportsmanship and Gamesmanship probably more Sporting than Gaming or I'd have tried taking pot shots at you by now Rich. You have given ample excuses to me, to make personal attack, but the sportsman in won't let me stoop to such tactics.

[RichAC]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 February 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

Oh I have both Sportsmanship and Gamesmanship probably more Sporting than Gaming or I'd have tried taking pot shots at you by now Rich. You have given ample excuses to me, to make personal attack, but the sportsman in won't let me stoop to such tactics.

ok w/e that means

[Joseph Mallan]

Ransack, on 21 February 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

I like that idea. How would the winnings be split though, equal shares for all?

Could do it that way or by a combination of lvl of participation based on a combo of damage done/Kills assists/damage taken/ death...

[RichAC]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 February 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

Could do it that way or by a combination of lvl of participation based on a combo of damage done/Kills assists/damage taken/ death...

Oh ya thats not exploitable at all....

Might as well just make it so you can mail people cbills like an MMO haha. I'm being sarcastic Joseph...

Edited by RichAC, 21 February 2014 - 11:46 AM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

In a game where rewards may have an impact (what you or your unit can do with xp/cbills) on community warfare, private matches should not earn you either.

Since CW is ill defined at this point AND PGI already decided the issue I doubt any of this thread even remotely matters anyway.

You can play wow and earn millions regulated by the limits of the common community server....aka undergoing the same risk and reward as anyone else. Again it is pve primarily so its not a good example to begin with.

Here, the ability to privately farm the cbills for things like merc unit charters/dropships in the competitve community warfare does not share the same risk and reward thus its exploitable. PGI is right to disallow it.

The argument that exploiting and hacking is easy and can be done anyway is immaterial to this debate. Yes you can cheat the game via hacks potentially. That is a separate issue and one dealt with via better protected coding or something like monitoring.

Private match exploitation is something easily and simply prevented by PGI as the completely different situation that it is. They are not allowing rewards for private matches. Different problem with a preventive solution.

If playing without all of us poor degenerates who just hold others back with our poor playstyles (very enlightened and self centric view imo) is so important to some, I guess folks can play "their way" but they sacrifice the cbills etc since they do not share the risk and reward associated with playing with the great unwashed.

Seems fair.

[Ransack]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 February 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

Could do it that way or by a combination of lvl of participation based on a combo of damage done/Kills assists/damage taken/ death...

I think it is something that they should consider. Not many people tank games when there is something for them to lose. I really hope that besides the private queue that they re-institute 5+ drops in open queues before they implement the no/no private queue. The way I see it, the private matches could be for practice or competitive drops, and your suggestion ups the ante so to speak(not that my competitive mechs need XP at this point).

[Joseph Mallan]

RichAC, on 21 February 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

ok w/e that means

It means I can see the thinking behind gamesmanship and because it is not actual cheating can follow the train of thought. I just prefer to not be sneaky underhanded player.

Now for the rest, you try and you try to invoke a heated response form members that disagree with you in a forum where exchanging ideas is the purpose. Using nightfire's screen name with the implications of being an insult or something to be ashamed of. When Nightfire has repeatedly proven to be a pretty decent person, showing much respect and self control that many could learn from.

RichAC, on 21 February 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

Only if they don't get XP for it

Actually PVP play and PVE experience are separate in SWTOR and that could work the same here.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 21 February 2014 - 11:55 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

RichAC, on 21 February 2014 - 11:41 AM, said:

Oh ya thats not exploitable at all....

Might as well just make it so you can mail people cbills like an MMO haha. I'm being sarcastic Joseph...

This is a discussion of how to make wagers between Murphy's Law and say the 10th Solaris Rangers on the out come of the private match. If I am willing to put say 50K C-Bills on the out come between out units, How does that affect you? You keep saying you want you want you want, well there are over 500K members here, not everyone wants the same game you want or I want. Te difference is I am open to looking or ways to make the game fun for more people not less.

As for mailing someone C-Bills... If I am a member a Unit why can't they help out a brother or sister? The Law did it in real life for me, Was that Cheating?

[Joseph Mallan]

Ransack, on 21 February 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

I think it is something that they should consider. Not many people tank games when there is something for them to lose. I really hope that besides the private queue that they re-institute 5+ drops in open queues before they implement the no/no private queue. The way I see it, the private matches could be for practice or competitive drops, and your suggestion ups the ante so to speak(not that my competitive mechs need XP at this point).

Well in CW I don't see a reason to keep the limit. Clan Wolf and Clan Jade Falcon are on the Lyran boarder I don't see a logical reason for Smoke Jags to be mixed in. Other than the Law has some friends/rivals among the Jags!

[RichAC]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 February 2014 - 11:55 AM, said:

This is a discussion of how to make wagers between Murphy's Law and say the 10th Solaris Rangers on the out come of the private match. If I am willing to put say 50K C-Bills on the out come between out units, How does that affect you? You keep saying you want you want you want, well there are over 500K members here, not everyone wants the same game you want or I want. Te difference is I am open to looking or ways to make the game fun for more people not less.

As for mailing someone C-Bills... If I am a member a Unit why can't they help out a brother or sister? The Law did it in real life for me, Was that Cheating?

I give up dude, i'm not going to try and convince the 10% of the players that don't understand sportsmanship.

I'm grateful for Dev Paul's reply, and i'm gonna stop posting now. Like another poster said, this is probably a moot subject.

I really dont' think PGI would change their mind on something, unlike coolant flush and 3rd person view, since this has to do with exploiting the game for easy rewards, which is definitely unfair to those who don't...

Edited by RichAC, 21 February 2014 - 12:10 PM.

[OldCowboy]

Crazy thread guys.
Anyone can see how gaining either cbills or xp in private matches that can then be carried over to public matches would be exploited. And it would be, severely. Why would I play dozens of matches in a competitive(pugs or premades(it doesn't matter))situation to either grind my mech to the holy speed tweek that I want so badly, when all I need is 1 friend to drop in private matches with and take turns doing whatever to grind at a much faster rate? Sounds disgusting to some, but it would be a standard in competitive play I am almost certain.

As for 12man drops currently being able to do this...yeah it's not good. But it takes Atleast 24 people devoted to doing so for quite a while if they want everyone to get significant gain. Not to mention consecutive synch drops. So I would put this under the hard to do effectively. But I'll move on because this is more of a side note to this thread and not the exact issue/discussion.

Theoretical solution to this is to have a private match mechbay and a public one. But the same problem with exploitation still occurs. Where people willing to spend time exploiting the system to grind up cbills quicker than top level players. If they did that they might as well just unlock all the mechs and skills for you. This could deter many from ever spending a dime on the game. There needs to be incentive for people to buy mc. Whether it's for a mech they are eager to have or a paint job. It's free to play and that's fine(wish I had that self control). Your perfectly entitled to not spend a dime and enjoy 90% of what this game offers. But that other fraction you have to pay for. And this fraction includes dropping a few bucks to get that expensive mech(content) much sooner than just grinding out the cbills in public matches. And if somebody doesn't do this there will be no more game.

[Joseph Mallan]

RichAC, on 21 February 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

I give up dude, i'm not going to try and convince the 10% of the players that don't understand sportsmanship.

I'm grateful for Dev Paul's reply, and i'm gonna stop posting now. Like another poster said, this is probably a moot subject.

I really dont' think PGI would change their mind on something, unlike coolant flush and 3rd person view, since this has to do with exploiting the game, which is definitely unfair to those who don't...

LOL I was being sportsmanlike possibly before you were born, I live by the code, My honor is my life. So being dishonorable in my game play is not even a second thought to me.

[RichAC]

Sekzone, on 21 February 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

Crazy thread guys.
Anyone can see how gaining either cbills or xp in private matches that can then be carried over to public matches would be exploited. And it would be, severely. Why would I play dozens of matches in a competitive(pugs or premades(it doesn't matter))situation to either grind my mech to the holy speed tweek that I want so badly, when all I need is 1 friend to drop in private matches with and take turns doing whatever to grind at a much faster rate? Sounds disgusting to some, but it would be a standard in competitive play I am almost certain.

As for 12man drops currently being able to do this...yeah it's not good. But it takes Atleast 24 people devoted to doing so for quite a while if they want everyone to get significant gain. Not to mention consecutive synch drops. So I would put this under the hard to do effectively. But I'll move on because this is more of a side note to this thread and not the exact issue/discussion.

Theoretical solution to this is to have a private match mechbay and a public one. But the same problem with exploitation still occurs. Where people willing to spend time exploiting the system to grind up cbills quicker than top level players. If they did that they might as well just unlock all the mechs and skills for you. This could deter many from ever spending a dime on the game. There needs to be incentive for people to buy mc. Whether it's for a mech they are eager to have or a paint job. It's free to play and that's fine(wish I had that self control). Your perfectly entitled to not spend a dime and enjoy 90% of what this game offers. But that other fraction you have to pay for. And this fraction includes dropping a few bucks to get that expensive mech(content) much sooner than just grinding out the cbills in public matches. And if somebody doesn't do this there will be no more game.

Well said,

they also do not manually pick their opponents in 12 man. But I also consider syncdropping cheating as well.

Edited by RichAC, 21 February 2014 - 12:21 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sekzone, on 21 February 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

Crazy thread guys.
Anyone can see how gaining either cbills or xp in private matches that can then be carried over to public matches would be exploited. And it would be, severely. Why would I play dozens of matches in a competitive(pugs or premades(it doesn't matter))situation to either grind my mech to the holy speed tweek that I want so badly, when all I need is 1 friend to drop in private matches with and take turns doing whatever to grind at a much faster rate? Sounds disgusting to some, but it would be a standard in competitive play I am almost certain.

As for 12man drops currently being able to do this...yeah it's not good. But it takes Atleast 24 people devoted to doing so for quite a while if they want everyone to get significant gain. Not to mention consecutive synch drops. So I would put this under the hard to do effectively. But I'll move on because this is more of a side note to this thread and not the exact issue/discussion.

Theoretical solution to this is to have a private match mechbay and a public one. But the same problem with exploitation still occurs. Where people willing to spend time exploiting the system to grind up cbills quicker than top level players. If they did that they might as well just unlock all the mechs and skills for you. This could deter many from ever spending a dime on the game. There needs to be incentive for people to buy mc. Whether it's for a mech they are eager to have or a paint job. It's free to play and that's fine(wish I had that self control). Your perfectly entitled to not spend a dime and enjoy 90% of what this game offers. But that other fraction you have to pay for. And this fraction includes dropping a few bucks to get that expensive mech(content) much sooner than just grinding out the cbills in public matches. And if somebody doesn't do this there will be no more game.

However bending over backwards for your friend will not make him a better player. He might get the perks, but that still won't ake him a better pilot than say Khobai, or Whispys. He may have all the toys but still be below average... Complaining cause he has the toys but still cant win.

[Nightfire]

'RichAC': "Not condone cheating and critically cheating? did you mean criticize? Thats just it, he wasn't criticizing any of it. Like you, by trying to determine how much it would actually affect the community, he is trying to find excuses to condone it.... With crimes, That would only be true, if you in fact were to admit the action is a crime in the first place...."

You got me, I left out a word. Let me restate it for you:

It is not and that is blatantly dishonest. One can not be a cheater, not condone cheating and still be able to critically analyze cheating and its various forms. We do this with crimes, yet anyone who looks at one crime being worse than another crime is not judged as a criminal or defending crime.

If you want me to extend my point, people commit crimes everyday. Even you commit multiple crimes everyday. You aren't arrested for them because they are minor, don't affect anyone and they aren't worth enforcing. (I wish I could find the example where he broke the tax seal on a pack of cigarettes) The impact on society at large is considered. The same could be considered here.

• How badly can players actually exploit this private game mode?
  
• how much effort would it be to stop them?
  
• What advantages would there be if we included it in an exploitable way?
  
• What impact is there on other players?
  
• If there is any impact on other players, how can we minimise it?

Quote

I thought you were going to quote something?

I did, just because you hitting the quote button doesn't include where I quoted doesn't mean you get to play cute and deny it happened.

Would you like it in my italics mode so you can quote it?

This was the challenge IceSerpent put forward that you failed to meet.

'IceSerpent': "Name one. Post a link to any game that provides instructions on how to use hardware macros for a specific (make and model - wise) gaming device, instead of just instructions on how to create in-game macros if such are available."

This is me partially defending your position that there is indeed one company that indeed does provide said support but only because they sell the hardware.

'Nightfire': "Conflation again of built in and supplied, language interpreter with macro support with macro support with PGI's failure to support external 3rd party products supplied and supported by said 3rd party. The supplied page (I looked myself) doesn't make any mention of hardware though it should be mentioned that through SteelSeries, Blizzard does make, distribute and support their own hardware. (WoW Mouse)

Again, the concept of supply and ownership is either lost or completely ignored by RichAC."

This is you, blatantly twisting, straw-manning and lying. Trying to turn my partial defense of your position into me claiming WoW only had macros to sell their mice ... ?

'RichAC': "I was being sarcastic, about you talking about macros are in wow because they want to sell their special mouse....lmao. Which was a totally out of touch clueless reply..."

and here again, repeating the lie to try and convince people it was true.

'RichAC': "I requoted what you said word for word, why even bring up the fact blizzard makes their own mouse? The fact still remains, that many people don't have access to such hardware, and blizzard didn't add the macro in the game to sell their special mouse."

If you're going to do this sort of stuff, try and do it about things that people can't just go back and easily disprove.
I retract nothing. I offer a full dissection of that conversation here.

Is that better?

'RichAC': "And why would you consider me using your name here an insult? lol"

Context is everything. You can play coy but it will catch up to you. You really should just confine yourself to peoples arguments rather than attacking the people themselves.

'RichAC': "Your buddy was talking about how he would be forced to pay for the game, or play with "*******" as he politely put it, if he cannot get xp/cbills for private matches. He also went on to state, that it would be boring to play with the same 4 mechs all the time......"

Yeah, not my buddy and not quite what he said but I'm not too concerned. We know you have trouble with reading comprehension.

'RichAC': "Well the truth is, the game is free to play. And if he wanted to master more then 4 mechs, he would have to pay money anywas to get more mech bay slots.....which has nothing to do with private matches at all......rant over...lmao."

You're right, what you said definitely has nothing to do with Private Matches ... unless you consider that if Private Matches is all you play and said matches don't yield any rewards, you won't ever get any new mechs without using MC.

'RichAC': "Well, do you drop solo or with a premade all the time. I notice that when dropping solo, I will never see certain players in a match. Its just a fact."

I stopped dropping solo a long time ago. It's simply not fun to play a teamwork based game with people who can't work together. I will happily admit though, that is my preference.

'RichAC': "His point was that he would quit the game, if he couldn't only play with friends and get xp and cbills. I said goodbye to him."

Oh I got that. The point you may have not gotten is your subtext of "Well you won't ever be able to play with your friends if I can help it so 'Goodbye', I won't miss you". It was uncalled for.

'RichAC': "Of course not, I've also included UNSPORTLIKE behavior. Because when they demand they get cbills and xp the same as everyone else participating with the community, it does...And when you guys start defending ways to exploit the game, or try to determine to what degree certain exploits negatively affect the community, as if it matters, its extremely unsportlike."

Wanting progression for playing in your preferred game mode is not unsportsmanlike.

You need to divorce yourself from this thinking that not playing public is not playing with the community. They are playing with the community, they are just not playing your preferred game mode.

Nobody is defending exploiting the game. Myself, I am admitting exploitation happens whether you want it to or not. The public queue is proof enough of that. I just want to quantify what said exploitation is likely to be if abused and if it falls within tolerance levels. Despite your personal belief, tolerance levels can be above 0 and have the game remain in a healthy state.

It does matter. You will have people who will exploit no matter what you do. You cannot eliminate it and if you try, you will doom yourself to failure. You can however constrain it and ensure that it doesn't negatively impact anyone else. At the end of it all, if they cannot negatively impact anyone else (including yourself) why are you so concerned that bad actors exist?

'RichAC': "Nobody is talking abolishing private matches.....I don't what logic your referring to.... We know 100% for a fact private matches can be exploited.'

Ok, since you want to be literal, let me restate the assertion:

Yeah, CAN. We have a strong suspicion that there is room for exploitation but people exploit the Random Public Queue now. If we apply the same logic, should we abolish the reward system in the public queue because people exploit sync dropping?

'RichAC': "But you bring up a good point, the excuse many have for sync dropping is "to play with friends" what people like you and ice serpent and phoenix admit and confirm, that is not what its about at all. Its about exploiting the game, and some people will still be doing this even with private matches."

Look, I'm being nice here so how about you engage some grey matter?
Just because some people can and will exploit for personal reward doesn't mean everyone does.
Action is not evidence of motivation!

IceSerpent and myself do not admit or confirm your delusional belief that all sync droppers are just in it for the C-Bills and pug stompers. Stop trying to use me as a claim for that. I've never said it and you can't quote me on it.

'RichAC': "Also unlike the exploits possible in private matches. There is really nothing that PGI can do to stop sync dropping. An ELO helps a bit, a bigger community can also help. But the the only thing that would deter sync dropping, is a community that is vocal against it."

Yes, there are ways of opposing sync dropping. Not the scope of this discussion but yes, fixable. It is worth the effort to stop it? Doubtful. This is your big killer here, impact vs resource cost to remedy.
The Matchmaker is completely and utterly broken.
Being vocal would do nothing. Leaving in droves would. it is my opinion that PGI listens to their wallet.

[Darklord]

If i may use the military as an example here.

When training for tanks do you get paid extra in the training mission for killing the pixel tanks or what you get out of it is a better
understanding of your equipment?
So for me to become the M J of the tank world i need to learn more in the simulators before I hit the battle field and then apply what i learned there to gain real experience.

The private matches should be for training,if you want XP and Cbills wait for them to put in the Solaris arenas.

[OldCowboy]

Being able to gift mechs and components is a planned/developer proposed feature that we may get already. So private matches making wagers or even the bold race for "pinks". I don't see any issues here.

[Nightfire]

RichAC, on 21 February 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

So you never admitted the game is being designed around CW, but its your belief the game is being designed around cw. lmao you contradict yourself in your first two points?

nice, this is what we call, "quoting out of context". It's another logical fallacy.

I never admitted that this game is designed around the game mode we have now, the Public Random Queue. Quoting me out of context and then shifting your position doesn't make you right.
I'm trying real hard here to be nice and deal only with your arguments since this is your thread but really, you are displaying the worst of behavior.

Quote

.... I'll still address some of your points...sigh.

That would be nice, for a change.

Quote

This is maybe not total proof of what the community wants, but this poll, at your request, is a pretty accurate microcosm my friend...lol I believe 90% of this community would rather play CW, as opposed to private matches....and not only because of the cbill/xp.

Actually, while I did suggest you take a poll, this isn't what I was suggesting but as I said, I'll give you props for trying.
It's a microcosm, you can't say it's accurate. 60 people is hardly a "3rd person view response".
Why even bring up CW? Private Matches and CW have nothing to do with each other! Do you imagine CW do be some new Random Elo Queue? If so, someone is insane. Ok seriously, how can you possibly compare CW and Private Matches? I'm really curious now as to how you think these things are going to work and how they could even compete with each other.

Quote

As far as the devs changing their minds about things, 3rd person view? How is that an exploit or unfair advantage? Coolant Flush? Well, this would only be unfair if some people were able to exploit private matches to get the cbills to buy them! lol otherwise its available to everyone with the same effort.

Who said these were examples of fairness or exploitation? These were examples of the devs changing their minds on things they said would never ever happen. Core design pillars they were called.

Quote

As for the difference between exploiting a private match and syncdropping in a public qeue. Refer to my previous post to you...

Where you evade by relying on a somewhat literal interpretation? I stand by the statement that the position that Private Matches should not have rewards can be used to justify the removal of rewards from the Public Random Queues because they are currently being exploited.

Quote

They are definitely less challenging when they are exploited.... And when people can get cbills faster and easier, they would probably be less likely to buy a mech instead, if they otherwise would of.... Unfair when everyone else has to grind normally...

Do you somehow think that people in Private Matches are going to start playing and have an Atlas by the end of the day? Seriously, quantify your position instead of resorting to implied hyperbole.

Quote

IF they were to record ELO, and peole were to sandbag with their friends it sure would. And even if that wasn't their intention, playing with the same people all the time would have an ELO that reflects that, that isn't accurately calculated against the rest of the whole community.

No, they wouldn't because Elo would be, should be completely unaffected by playing in Private Matches! Elo has no place in Private Matches and any Wins/Losses should not be calculated into Elo. This is a null point and you should drop it. You only use it to distract.

Quote

Also, when we reward them with cbills and xp, for obvious reasons they will be scoring differently when dropping back into the community because of those attribute and ability advances they have gained as well...

So what? If they had played in the Random Public Queue, they would have unlocked modules. Or do you mean the ability of the player in which case not only will Elo correct for that, it is the same impact as someone starting of with natural talent. the effect on others is not earth shattering.

Quote

I believe an ELO is for more fair and competitive matches. And it is my belief, that if such matches were to be rewarded, that is something that is absolutely necessary. If private matches are going to be self selected, they should have neither.

Self selection is no grounds for refusing rewards. Exploitation, if it can be shown to be destabilizing, is a reason. Your love affair with Elo and instance that it is the only means of play with any value is elitist. The only reason the Elo system exists is not so you can have rewards, it was because people were complaining about getting stomped in the public queue over and over again.We had rewards long before we had an Elo system. In my opinion, it is absolutely necessary to have some sort of matchmaking system when you are creating games from random pools. This is to preserve the game experience, not to make sure you struggle for your rewards. Elo has no place in a Private Match and this has nothing to do with the reward system.

'RichAC': "Soon they will get private matches, and they can play with everyone they want '

No they won't. As it stands, they still won't be able to play the game with their friends and progress. They are getting this elsewhere and enjoying it. Here is the major pit fall. There were many team players who wanted to play with their friends (more than 4 of them) and progress in the game. They could not do that and they still will not be able to do that. PGI has failed on this front. If Private Matches yielded rewards for progress, they will have actually fulfilled a promise they made long ago.

'RichAC': "The game is already based around their reward system."

The reward system is far from complete and I don't see how you connect this with CW?

'RichAC': "All crimes are crimes, All cheats are cheats, why try to bring up the differences between them in this discussion, if not to condone one more then the other?"

I actually brought this up to demonstrate that once can have knowledge of a subject and talk about a subject without condoning a subject. You've run with this way too far in a direction that the analogy was never meant to demonstrate. However, since you want to keep this going: Not all crimes are prosecuted if it isn't worth the effort and they have minimal impact on society. Likewise, you can choose to do nothing about an exploit if they have no significant impact on the game. Or are you saying we should shoot people on the street for littering?

'RichAC': "But sportsmanship this is the key understanding you personally lack! I think maybe like Joseph, you only have "gamesmanship"'

True to form, you attack the person and not the argument. These are the sorts of touches that demonstrate you have no real intellectual substance to your position, you just want to sling barbs and distract from the curtain you hide behind. This quote demonstrates how unqualified you are to talk about sportsmanship.