225 replies to this topic

[o0Marduk0o]

Playing with 20 random people is a challenge, accept it if you are good enough.

[Nightfire]

Paul Inouye, on 20 February 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

[color=cyan]As this feature is currently in the pipe, I'll comment on it. It has never been our stance to allow rewards in Private Matches. It is something easily gamed and exploited. CB/XP rewards will only be available in the public queue.[/color]

An actual response!
What leads you to believe that these matches are that easily exploited/would be exploited in that way when 12 mans currently aren't exploited in this fashion? I'd like to understand your reasoning.

What makes them different enough to not get C-Bills/XP than from 12 mans that are currently (when they are run) essentially the same thing save we can't choose the map?

[PhoenixFire55]

RichAC, on 21 February 2014 - 03:56 AM, said:

Well I don't know what to say to you about this, you obviously don't understand thats exploitable, or why its ridiculous for PGI to monitor, or why it undermines the match maker and ranking system regardless.

Well I don't know what to say either. Because I think you don't understand it yourself. If you do then explain exactly how will anyone exploit it? And exactly why is it so very ridiculous for PGI to monitor? Or exactly where did I say I want anything to do with 'ranking system' that truth be told simply does not yet exist?

As for MM, its fubar as is. Nothing anyone can do to make it worse.

RichAC, on 21 February 2014 - 03:56 AM, said:

If I misunderstood, what were they gaining from it then?

C-bills and exp with zero effort involved and zero time consumed.

RichAC, on 21 February 2014 - 03:56 AM, said:

You expect them to personally review everyones private match, because you want to get easy rewards with 2 of your friends? Thats pretty demanding dude. Again, you show a lack of sports sense, if you think its easy to program some tool to automatically detect every stat padder, its just not feasible.

No I want their programmers to do their bloody job and program smth for a change. If you want I'll send you an algorithm how to do it in a couple days, its not even high-school level of knowledge.

How are these rewards 'easy'? If they are scaled in proportion to the amount of people in private match vs the usual 24 they are same, not in any way easier / more difficult then in public games. If I wanted 'easy' I'd get 3 buddies on TS and we all drop in Highlander / DDC premade for easy uber damage and 90% win ratio. Thats what people do now because they want 'easy' c-bills / exp, thus screwing your PUG games even further.

And you again should come down to Earth. Computer games have nothing to do with sport. One of the major reasons for it you already stated yourself - complete anonymity of people involved.

RichAC, on 21 February 2014 - 03:56 AM, said:

You just answered your own question...lol They are still "stats" friend.

Stats. Stats that nobody can see. I soooo much want to improve my KDR. But you know what? Its much easier to do it with Photoshop. In any case if you had any idea about stats you'd know that KDR reflects nothing but the ability to deal (steal) the final blow and the ability to hide away from fighting when your team isn't doing too well.

RichAC, on 21 February 2014 - 03:56 AM, said:

Thats not an unfair thing to ask, because its what everyone has to do.

So what you say is that I have to pay money to play FREE-to-play game?
Or that I have to play with ret@rded people in this game while any other game I don't have to?
You aren't working for PGI are you?

Besides you sound like I'm asking for the ability to play private matches and still get something only for myself. Everyone should be able to. Reason why people are leaving this game is those same two things they have to do.

RichAC, on 21 February 2014 - 03:56 AM, said:

IF it was only about "fun" for you, you wouldn't be debating me over cbills....You would be happy just playing with your friends, for no reward other then "FUN".

And just how long can you have fun playing in 4 trial mechs over and over without any chance to try new ones or even customize old ones? Even now it is fun to have 4 veteran players in trial Spiders and run around for a few games, but like everything else it gets old rather quickly.

I mean, honestly, do you even play the game yourself? If you did you wouldn't be asking such question.

[Joseph Mallan]

o0Marduk0o, on 21 February 2014 - 03:07 AM, said:

Or one side is only there to give the other side XP. Or you trade cbills between multiple accounts. It will be exploited and we already got a dev statement here, so nothing to discuss left.

And... That is called "Training". It happens all the time in sports and in the Military. We practice among ourselves and hone our abilities to function as a team or individual ability. SO as for "giving either side XP, I don't see a problem.

Trading C-Bills between accounts... Funny in SWTOR my fellow guild members have gifted me in game money, armor, weapons, and other equipment. All to be used PvE and PvP... And I have traded equipment along my family tree as well.

A Merc Unit would do the same for the same reason. To improve the effective might of the unit. SO I don't see a problem with that... In the CBT universe its called a Garrison Contract. Sit around train against yourself or the Militia and collect C-Bills. Its a part of being a Merc Unit.

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IF it was only about "fun" for you, you wouldn't be debating me over cbills....You would be happy just playing with your friends, for no reward other then "FUN".

I have 3 Mechs(one for a charity), Less then 500,000 C-bills what is your point again?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 21 February 2014 - 04:54 AM.

[Curccu]

RichAC, on 21 February 2014 - 04:00 AM, said:

Well for one, it will give a reason to still play the other game modes and keep them populated. Which is good for the whole community and PGI in general.

everyone still needs CB / XP to get and level up new mechs / modules.

like I said I'm not really asking to gain anything in private matches but if you can't gain anything why should you be able to lose anything? it should be like training grounds.

[o0Marduk0o]

Nightfire, on 21 February 2014 - 04:35 AM, said:

What makes them different enough to not get C-Bills/XP than from 12 mans that are currently (when they are run) essentially the same thing save we can't choose the map?

The enemies in public 12vs12 are random and therefore want to win as well. In private matches, players can control the match results.

[RichAC]

PhoenixFire55, on 21 February 2014 - 04:36 AM, said:

Well I don't know what to say either. Because I think you don't understand it yourself. If you do then explain exactly how will anyone exploit it? And exactly why is it so very ridiculous for PGI to monitor? Or exactly where did I say I want anything to do with 'ranking system' that truth be told simply does not yet exist?

scroll back up and read.

As for MM, its fubar as is. Nothing anyone can do to make it worse.

I disagree.

C-bills and exp with zero effort involved and zero time consumed.

Exactly!

No I want their programmers to do their bloody job and program smth for a change. If you want I'll send you an algorithm how to do it in a couple days, its not even high-school level of knowledge.

horse manure. Something else you don't understand is that humans have streaks and slumps, its what makes people human. Its not something you can calculate.

How are these rewards 'easy'? If they are scaled in proportion to the amount of people in private match vs the usual 24 they are same, not in any way easier / more difficult then in public games. If I wanted 'easy' I'd get 3 buddies on TS and we all drop in Highlander / DDC premade for easy uber damage and 90% win ratio. Thats what people do now because they want 'easy' c-bills / exp, thus screwing your PUG games even further.

scroll back up and read.

And you again should come down to Earth. Computer games have nothing to do with sport. One of the major reasons for it you already stated yourself - complete anonymity of people involved

Hence your ignorance, and a sign of the times. People can affect the game, but that doesn't change what it was developed for.

Stats. Stats that nobody can see. I soooo much want to improve my KDR. But you know what? Its much easier to do it with Photoshop. In any case if you had any idea about stats you'd know that KDR reflects nothing but the ability to deal (steal) the final blow and the ability to hide away from fighting when your team isn't doing too well.

huh? what does this have to do with the stats you want included for yourself in private matches? kill/dmg/assists, they are still stats.

So what you say is that I have to pay money to play FREE-to-play game?


Or that I have to play with ret@rded people in this game while any other game I don't have to?
You aren't working for PGI are you?

You sound like a sore loser, who won't be satisfied with anything... you still have to pay for more then 4 mechs.

Besides you sound like I'm asking for the ability to play private matches and still get something only for myself. Everyone should be able to. Reason why people are leaving this game is those same two things they have to do.

Some people are waiting for CW, some people are waiting for private matches, other people want more competitiveness.

And just how long can you have fun playing in 4 trial mechs over and over without any chance to try new ones or even customize old ones? Even now it is fun to have 4 veteran players in trial Spiders and run around for a few games, but like everything else it gets old rather quickly.

You played conterstrike didn't ya? lol You know that is still the most popular fps game on the pc for the past 20 years. Rival with TF2. no sorry mw and bf don't come close(which also don't have more then 4 classes)...

I mean, honestly, do you even play the game yourself? If you did you wouldn't be asking such question.

I play some matches every day.

[Joseph Mallan]

o0Marduk0o, on 21 February 2014 - 04:55 AM, said:

The enemies in public 12vs12 are random and therefore want to win as well. In private matches, players can control the match results.

And if players are play a game among themselves for items they have, why would it matter to you or me if Rich Battled against Curccu for control of a PPC factory? or 10 million C-bills?

[RichAC]

Curccu, on 21 February 2014 - 04:42 AM, said:

everyone still needs CB / XP to get and level up new mechs / modules.

like I said I'm not really asking to gain anything in private matches but if you can't gain anything why should you be able to lose anything? it should be like training grounds.

But you are gaining something by not losing something. You are in a sense, gaining consumables over and over again, when people playing with the community have to rebuy them over and over again. Thats not fair.

Like I said, its also more of a reason, besides just cb/xp, for people to still have to play matches with the community. Which is good for the whole community and PGI, and the matchmaker to keep peoples ELO's updated. SO they don't play a private match for a month, turn into god with their new mech, and stomp lower brackets, as another example.

Edited by RichAC, 21 February 2014 - 05:05 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

RichAC, on 21 February 2014 - 05:02 AM, said:

But you are gaining something by not losing something. You are in a sense, gaining consumables over and over again, when people playing with the community have to rebuy them over and over again.

Like I said, its also more of a reason, besides just cb/xp, for people to still have to play matches with the community. Which is good for the whole community and PGI, and the matchmaker to keep peoples ELO's updated. SO they don't play a private match for a month, turn into god, and stomp lower brackets, as another example.

Actually add in the need to do this then. If you use a consumable in a Private match you have to replace it. it really doesn't need to be a difficult problem to fix. You use it you lose it. Only exception would be the training ground itself.

[RichAC]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 February 2014 - 05:00 AM, said:

And if players are play a game among themselves for items they have, why would it matter to you or me if Rich Battled against Curccu for control of a PPC factory? or 10 million C-bills?

I just find it totally amazing, I mean did you even read any of this thread? You sound like [redacted] now. Are you just trolling for personal reasons? How many times do people have to give specific examples of why thats unfair?!?

The excuse that well PGI could monitor everyones private match, is just not feasible, because it would ahve to be a case by case basis. Blowouts happen, human nature has streaks and slumps, its not something that can be calculated....every instance of possible stat padding would have to reviewed!!! And thats ridiculous!

I mean maybe because I'm paranoid and analyze things by nature, that i always assume its impossible for people to not realize how unfair this is to PGI and the whole community, that they must have dishonest motives.
But maybe some people will just never understand...

Edited by miSs, 21 February 2014 - 06:29 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

RichAC, on 21 February 2014 - 04:16 AM, said:

Another poster already explained noone gets any cbills for this. And so i guess i did understand you correctly before....

Well read again what 'another poster' you fail to link explained. Being disconnected and being afk are different things. We do not have a system that tracks the 'amount of participation'. One can participate all right and get one-shotted early on doing 0 dmg or one can be afk all game doing same 0 dmg ... they will get same rewards.

RichAC, on 21 February 2014 - 04:16 AM, said:

You sound like a hacker now dude. Defending playing against yourself on two acounts because it takes more technical effort? IT doesn't matter if it doesn't affect anyone elses match, its dishonest you are getting faster rewards then everyone else that has to actually play for them. its also unfair to PGI who wants to make money off this game. In fact its almost criminal dude, how old are you? How could you defend such a thing?

You special or what? SHOW ME where am I "defending it"? "It" doesn't give anyone any faster rewards then just being afk all day long, which anyone can do now without any private matches. Exploiters are already exploiting all they can, c-bills/exp in private matches won't give them any new/easier exploiting options.

RichAC, on 21 February 2014 - 04:16 AM, said:

Counterstrike has no progression man. What are you talking about?
One devs want to make money, two people who want pure e-sports aren't playing on the pc anymore.

You said that 'arena' type PVP games do not have private matches, I showed you that it is not so. All progression we have in MWO is limited to eliting your mech (that can be done within a day) and getting 2-3 modules (that can be done within a week).

So you defend devs who force people to pay money for free-to-play game?

RichAC, on 21 February 2014 - 04:16 AM, said:

PGI's matchmaker is fine the problem is they have to keep a wide ELO gap so enough people are included

When was the last time you actually played?

The problem IS Elo as it has nothing to do with player skill or anything.

RichAC, on 21 February 2014 - 04:16 AM, said:

but its definitely better then nothing. This ensures not any more people will drop out of community play, further hurting the matchmaker. Which I always like to add, most games don't even have!

In other words 'we know we are gonna **** up the CW, so lets not give our players any chance to play anything but CW'. Nice, especially considering they said they intend to charge you $$ for participating in CW. Free-to-play much?

RichAC, on 21 February 2014 - 04:16 AM, said:

Maybe there was more people playing with the community in beta, and your suggestions would only give people more reasons to not play with the community. Although, I'm not sure I even believe this comment..sorry.

If CW will be made so that people would actually WANT to play they will play. If not they will not. Private matches have nothing to do with playing / not playing CW.

You may believe whatever you want. How would YOU know better? You got an alternative founders account?

RichAC, on 21 February 2014 - 04:16 AM, said:

/bye to the less then 10 percent of the community like you /waves

You should definetly apply for position in PGI. Thats exact same thing they do. Bye 10% here, bye 10% there and suddenly and don't have any % left.

RichAC, on 21 February 2014 - 04:16 AM, said:

I still say its people like you as to why we have no win bonuses, not disconnecting farmers which i would think can easily be calculated, , or even the whiny sore losers about fast cap wins(which as one poster explained to me, is still just a beta mode prior to CW) Well your a minority.

Your opinion vs my opinion. You got facts to back yours up? You'd brought them out by now if you did.

RichAC, on 21 February 2014 - 04:16 AM, said:

I think the less people there are who undermine fair play, carebears against the spirit of competition, and those that want to exploit this game, the more popular it will become.

True, and absolutely nothing to do with original argument. Rewards in private matches does not allow you to exploit any easier than you can do it now.

[RichAC]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 February 2014 - 05:04 AM, said:

Actually add in the need to do this then. If you use a consumable in a Private match you have to replace it. it really doesn't need to be a difficult problem to fix. You use it you lose it. Only exception would be the training ground itself.

Isn't this what I just said man? Noone is debating about the training ground...

[Joseph Mallan]

RichAC, on 21 February 2014 - 05:06 AM, said:

I just find it totally amazing, I mean did you even read any of this thread? You sound like nightfire now. Are you just trolling for personal reasons? How many times do people have to give specific examples of why thats unfair?!?

The excuse that well PGI could monitor everyones private match, is just not feasible, because it would ahve to be a case by case basis. Blowouts happen, human nature has streaks and slumps, its not something that can be calculated....every instance of possible stat padding would have to reviewed!!!

I mean maybe because I'm paranoid and analyze things by nature, that i always assume its impossible for people to not realize how unfair this is to PGI and the whole community, that they must have dishonest motives.
But maybe some people will just never understand...

Actually I posed a legitimate question. In every other game I play in a guild (sure thats only 3) players are trading and giving equipment they don't need to their fellow guild mates. SWTOR has a Guild Bank that lets me upload and down lost equipment we have gained and don't need.

As to the example of gaining XP in "private matches". Do Martial Artists train against actual enemies or against Friends and Classmates to be able to ply their knowledge in tournaments and on the street when the time comes? To date I can hold my own against students high ranked than I am, but have hardly needed to play that knowledge outside the class, And when I did, that classroom experience paid off in spades.

As a soldier, I shot targets for hours and hours not Living People. Training is done among your own ranks and is a time honored and tested way of getting better to have better skills when it counts.

[Joseph Mallan]

RichAC, on 21 February 2014 - 05:10 AM, said:

Isn't this what I just said man? Noone is debating about the training ground...

But the training ground does not have "live" adversaries that fire back. In private matches I can test my weapons out against someone who can give me feedback. It is training, and deserves XP. Cash... Works either way to me. If it is against other Lawmen I don't need/want cash for that. If its against DHB... I would not be against taking their C-Bills

[DEN_Ninja]

All I am hearing is. "I want CB/XP gain because me and my friends deserve it"

Yeah, that will get your really far with that argument.


What is seriously just stopping people from bringing 24, 16, or 8 DDC's and strip each other down to the bare minimum to game the system for XP/CB. Don't act like all the 20+ year old men and sometimes women playing this game are saintly and mature. There will be GAMERS. All striving to cheat the system in anyway they can. Why else do script kiddies in video games exist?

Public Matches are Public Matches.

Private are Private and have no bearing other than to facilitate a sport, a spar, something that is not achieved in a regular game.

[Nightfire]

RichAC, on 21 February 2014 - 02:57 AM, said:

As far as any size premades go, people complain alot about 4 man premades as it is. So to have those dominating 12 mans, start making 11 man premades and dominating every pug into an empty playerbase, just like they have to these carebears in 12 man mode, might be an issue....lol

They complained about 4 mans now, they complained about 8 mans back when it was an option. Th reality is they really have no clue what pre-mades are on the other side or if there are, what impact they had on the game. You speak of domination as if every pre-made group does this automatically when I can tell you, they don't.

You think larger groups will drive pugs away, I know for a fact small group sizes have already driven a significant number of players away. That isn't conjecture, it's a fact I can back up by naming player names from my friends list who have told me why they are leaving. There are probably more who left for the same reason but I can't verify.

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IF they want to earn rewards with with more then 3 other friends, they need to suck it up and play a 12 man. And if some people are complaining about long search times dropping solo, I can just imagine when PGI is trying to match teams up according to premade sizes of any number....

So if you have 6 friends on, you're SOL!? I think your bias to wanting everyone to drop solo is showing.

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But we will see, maybe PGI will make a separate game mode for premades of any size, and we will just have to see how it goes.... I just hope alot of people who have been begging for this for a long time are not too disappointed.

No matter how you do it, you are going to need some solo/small groups to fill the gaps. It's the reason 12 mans are not used much. 12 mans have a huge barrier to entry exasperated by being 12 players or nothing. (Actually, with the empty queues it's 24 players or nothing) If 12 mans were actually a "Larger group queue" with the ability to throw in fillers, it might get more use.

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IMO thats what private matches will be for. for those guys syncdropping with 30 guys, who can scrimmage against themselves and practice for 12 mans.

If there are no C-Bills/XP in private matches, even if it's somewhat less than the random queue, I don't see that changing. Why drop with your friends and get nothing when you can drop with your friends and get something? The rewards aren't everything as some people claim but it is stupid to think that progression doesn't matter.

I really don't understand the argument that Private matches cannot be an alternative avenue to progression than the public queue. If 12 mans aren't exploited now (since you can organise the same 12v12 with a high degree of assurance right now) what makes people think Private matches will be because you can select the map? These players will spend just as much time on the battlefield and fight mechs just like anyone in the public queue, how badly could these be exploited?

This isn't a troll, I'm serious so no-one please hide behind the "It's obvious", "can't you see", "you're beyond naive" or similar.
Every idea should be open for exploration to any intelligent mind. I really want to tear this down and understand it.

[o0Marduk0o]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 February 2014 - 05:17 AM, said:

Actually I posed a legitimate question. In every other game I play in a guild (sure thats only 3) players are trading and giving equipment they don't need to their fellow guild mates. SWTOR has a Guild Bank that lets me upload and down lost equipment we have gained and don't need.

As to the example of gaining XP in "private matches". Do Martial Artists train against actual enemies or against Friends and Classmates to be able to ply their knowledge in tournaments and on the street when the time comes? To date I can hold my own against students high ranked than I am, but have hardly needed to play that knowledge outside the class, And when I did, that classroom experience paid off in spades.

As a soldier, I shot targets for hours and hours not Living People. Training is done among your own ranks and is a time honored and tested way of getting better to have better skills when it counts.

You get better skills in piloting mechs, the player itself advances. This is your training, not to unlock stuff in an exploitable environment. If you really just want to train, XP/CB wouldn't be a topic here.

You can't compare MWO with a MMORPG. It's not even close.

[Joseph Mallan]

Tichorius Davion, on 21 February 2014 - 05:25 AM, said:

All I am hearing is. "I want CB/XP gain because me and my friends deserve it"

Yeah, that will get your really far with that argument.


What is seriously just stopping people from bringing 24, 16, or 8 DDC's and strip each other down to the bare minimum to game the system for XP/CB. Don't act like all the 20+ year old men and sometimes women playing this game are saintly and mature. There will be GAMERS. All striving to cheat the system in anyway they can. Why else do script kiddies in video games exist?

Public Matches are Public Matches.

Private are Private and have no bearing other than to facilitate a sport, a spar, something that is not achieved in a regular game.

Then you are listening wrong.

I think everyone should get exp for battling. You gain experience in real life by training is it so hard to accept his principle in a game?

[RichAC]

PhoenixFire55, on 21 February 2014 - 05:09 AM, said:

Well read again what 'another poster' you fail to link explained. Being disconnected and being afk are different things. We do not have a system that tracks the 'amount of participation'. One can participate all right and get one-shotted early on doing 0 dmg or one can be afk all game doing same 0 dmg ... they will get same rewards.

The point is they both get 0 points. So there is nothing for you to whine about!

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You special or what? SHOW ME where am I "defending it"? "It" doesn't give anyone any faster rewards then just being afk all day long, which anyone can do now without any private matches. Exploiters are already exploiting all they can, c-bills/exp in private matches won't give them any new/easier exploiting options.

read the previous statement... and again, you sound like your defending it by saying exploiters already exploit the game.....as if thats an excuse dude??? But once again, going afk or disconnecting, is not exploiting the game for easy rewards, but still griefing other players by disadvantaging one team.

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You said that 'arena' type PVP games do not have private matches, I showed you that it is not so. All progression we have in MWO is limited to eliting your mech (that can be done within a day) and getting 2-3 modules (that can be done within a week).

I would never have said such a thing. I'm all for private matches.... You used counterstrike, as an example of players progressing in xp and other rewards in private matches, which is the deabate here. hahaha. Are you sure your on planet earth dude? Because you must be playing counterstrike on mars.

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So you defend devs who force people to pay money for free-to-play game?

You have to pay if you want more then 4 mechs regardless of private matches, because you have to buy the mech bay slots. So your argument about private matches is invalid. Yes i defend the Devs, this game is not only f2p its not p2w either.

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When was the last time you actually played?



The problem IS Elo as it has nothing to do with player skill or anything.



In other words 'we know we are gonna **** up the CW, so lets not give our players any chance to play anything but CW'. Nice, especially considering they said they intend to charge you $$ for participating in CW. Free-to-play much?

I played last night. Havent' played today yet. ELO would be better if scores were calculated also, but when your W/L evens out, your scores should also, for most people. Again, the more people, the better the match maker is for guys on the bottom and top end of the spectrum. But Having a match maker is way better then no match maker at all my friend.

They want you to play the game period. If everyone just played private matches, people that aren't part of some clique, or those who prefer CW, would be left out, the community would be even smaller, and PGI would lose more money. Cliques of people playing private matches would be the only ones left in the game, I've seen it happen before.

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If CW will be made so that people would actually WANT to play they will play. If not they will not. Private matches have nothing to do with playing / not playing CW.

You can play their game or not. Don't let the door hit ya on the way out. Your already complaining about something you have yet to see, which means, it would not matter to you regardless.

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You may believe whatever you want. How would YOU know better? You got an alternative founders account?





You should definetly apply for position in PGI. Thats exact same thing they do. Bye 10% here, bye 10% there and suddenly and don't have any % left.



Your opinion vs my opinion. You got facts to back yours up? You'd brought them out by now if you did.

Because a rotten 10% is what ruins it for the whole bunch. Myabe this link will help you understand. http://en.wikipedia....i/Sportsmanship

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True, and absolutely nothing to do with original argument. Rewards in private matches does not allow you to exploit any easier than you can do it now.

Oh contraire mon fraire, this has to be a disingenous statement by you. I don't understand how people can believe such a preposterous statemetn. You have to just be trolling. There is no way this is a serious comment.

The dev already has made a statement regarding this, I have given countless examples. This last statement is suspect and I'm going to stop replying to you now.