8 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

I've posted similar in the "nerf gun" thread in Gameplay Balance, but hey- this makes it more distinct and clear.

Jump jets as they stand are a kludgy system. One jet is great, many is meh, and people howl bloody murder about the cost vs. rewards of the darn things while trying to chop them into ever-more-complex fixes.

Today, I'm going to show you how to build a jump jet system that's straightforward and easily understood.

First off, jump jets are the "mobility system"- the "engine" of a 'Mech that's airborne. They provide thrust and (relatively) stable adjustments of the 'Mech while in flight.

In tabletop terms, your top speed was equal to your grounded "cruise" or "walking" speed. That is, the point of speed at which in MWO, you hit 66% of throttle. TT also was a little more distinct on engine ratings, which had to an evenly divideable number by their tonnage- so for example a 55-tonner could use a 55,110, 165, 220, 275, 330, or 385-rated engine only. MWO's a bit more convoluted, but remember that anyway. You could mount a maximum of (engine rating/tonnage) jump jets- so a 55-ton 'Mech with a 275 engine could use a maximum of 5 (275/55 = 5) jets, which gave it jump movement at the same speed as it could walk.

Translating TT jump jets over to MWO is actually easier and less facepalming than PGI makes it out to, AND provides balance. Here's how it works.

In MWO, engine rating translates not only to movement speed, but the "agility" of a 'Mech- it's turning speed and torso twist speed also change based on this. While a 'Mech is airborne, it's jump jets become it's "engine"- and we can use this to have jump jets also determine both movement capacity and "agility" while airborne in MWO.

First: Trash the current jet limits. They're based not on any real rules, only an attempt to make 'Mechs "different" when in reality, right now the usefulness of added jets rapidly declines as you add more past the first. Replace this with the formula used in TT- engine rating/Mech tonnage. If you really wanted to be cruel, you could give some 'Mechs a smaller maximum than that, thereby restricting their mobility somewhat- but the general formula should be as above.

One jump jet in MWO is equal to an engine rating of ('Mech tonnage) for purposes of turn speed and twist speed. It grants airspeed equal to 66% of this as well- so a 55-ton 'Mech with 3 jets moves at an airspeed equal to a 165 engine at 66% throttle, regardless of it's engine rating otherwise. It turns and twists in the air as if it had only a 165 engine as well, regardless of it's actual engine- even if normally it'd have better agility and speed on the ground. While it's airborne, it's ability to move and react is solely based on it's thrusters. Yes, this means that a 'Mech with an engine that's bigger it's "jet rating" will be more agile on the ground but clumsier in the air- sometimes even if it's using all the jets it's allowed.

Rate of climb/descent would vary based on the amount of "burn time"- but one jet should allow a 'Mech to reach a 30m height and land safely, or higher if the 'Mech had no plans on either a safe landing or coming back down (ie, they're landing on a higher surface). Multiple jets increase this by 30m per jet- so a Spider with 8 jets should be able to leap up to 240m above it's starting height and have enough fuel to land at the starting level safely. Alternatively, the number of jets can be used to also give the 'Mech a maximum altitude it can reach over a given surface, but that's more complex.

A full fuel "burn" should be enough for 10 seconds of safe movement from takeoff to landing- regardless of the number of jets. Likewise, a full recharge from zero jet charge should also take ten seconds- of course, if you didn't jump the full distance, recharging to full would take less time. Bounding over a small hill would take a second or two of recharge, while launching yourself 240m in one go in your Spider on a full burn would take the entire 10-count. Of course, if you saved a bit of fuel and decided taking a little leg damage was OK, you'd be bouncing again sooner...and even a "partial burn" with enough jets will take you quite some distance.

'Mechs are never perfectly stable while jumping. Reticule shake applies when airborne, even when "coasting". A 'Mech that isn't under thrust in mid-air is an unstable, soon-to-be-tumbling brick. Sorry, poptarters. There's a reason 'Mechs in TT have a hideous targeting modifier when shooting and jumping- absolute precision is Right Out.

Edited by wanderer, 20 February 2014 - 07:06 AM.

[CronuxKobold]

This, yes. I like you kind sir.

[Bishop Steiner]

I have occasionally vehemently disagreed with you. On this, I actually staunchly support your idea. I would say that the one caveat, which would add even more "skill" use to Mechs like Spiders, is return to the older style of "recharge" where as soon as you stop burning, the thrust bittles start recharging. It's idiotic that the mech actually has to be on the ground for it to start recharge (and further proves yours and CapperDeluxe's assertion that the game "Knows" when you are on the ground or not).

Then, even with the significant range nerfs seen in MWO, one could actually, in some instances, with some skill use, "air walk" certain mechs for a considerable distance, though with your other suggestions, it would be a very vulnerable target during this period, with limited trajectory arcs. (On can already air walk now, by selectively firing JJS, though one is generally stuck in a "glide" at that point, but is hampered by the silly recharge of the current game mechanic).

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

I like almost everything in your proposal. The exception is the vertical lift. It should not be 30m per JJ. 30m is the horizontal distance, not the vertical distance. It should be 6m per JJ (the height of a level in the TT).

Also, JJ heat appears to be too low. It should be treated like firing weapons, with more JJs being hotter and longer burns generating more heat than shorter ones. That said, there should be an initial minimum heat burst when jumping, due to the "kick" necessary to get the mech off the ground in the first place spiking the reactor's output so much.

[wanderer]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 21 February 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:

I like almost everything in your proposal. The exception is the vertical lift. It should not be 30m per JJ. 30m is the horizontal distance, not the vertical distance. It should be 6m per JJ (the height of a level in the TT).

Cool with that, though I wonder how much vertical we get as it stands. Hmmm...

Quote

Also, JJ heat appears to be too low. It should be treated like firing weapons, with more JJs being hotter and longer burns generating more heat than shorter ones. That said, there should be an initial minimum heat burst when jumping, due to the "kick" necessary to get the mech off the ground in the first place spiking the reactor's output so much.

Normally, I'd say yes- but with MWO already overdoing it on heat thanks to the borked DHS, I'm leery about actually pushing the full heat load of JJ movement on a 'Mech. Making it equal to 150% of max throttle heat when burning wouldn't be bad, though. That's equivalent to the minimum heat a jump generates in TT.

[YueFei]

I'm all on-board for this idea of the number of jets affecting air-borne maneuverability. Also, we shouldn't be able to air-turn without using jump jet thrust, which we currently are allowed to do.

To further restrict mech agility in the air, I also propose that without jet thrust, any torso twisting in mid-air should cause a counter rotation at the waist and move the legs in the opposite direction. For example, if you twist to the right 90 degrees, what should happen is that your torso facing changes 45 degrees to the right, and your legs swivel 45 degrees to the left. It's physics.

To truly jump-turn, you should have to apply jump jet thrust, and if you turn while applying jump jet thrust, it should reduce the amount of vertical lift you get.

[wanderer]

YueFei, on 22 February 2014 - 11:45 PM, said:

I'm all on-board for this idea of the number of jets affecting air-borne maneuverability. Also, we shouldn't be able to air-turn without using jump jet thrust, which we currently are allowed to do.

To further restrict mech agility in the air, I also propose that without jet thrust, any torso twisting in mid-air should cause a counter rotation at the waist and move the legs in the opposite direction. For example, if you twist to the right 90 degrees, what should happen is that your torso facing changes 45 degrees to the right, and your legs swivel 45 degrees to the left. It's physics.

To truly jump-turn, you should have to apply jump jet thrust, and if you turn while applying jump jet thrust, it should reduce the amount of vertical lift you get.

I'm not so sure on that- in BT, turning doesn't cost MP while jumping, and simply making the turn rate based on # of jets should do wonders in that regard. Consider that in this system, jets would NOT mean you turn faster- in fact, at best you'd break even.

[GreyGriffin]

Jump jets should make you jump, not rumble and slowly ascend like a Saturn V rocket.

[Gladewolf]

Use proportional percentages to max engine turn speed and for lift, so if the max number of jets is 5, you get one fifth per jet. Putting a single jump jet on a mech is goofy and was supposed to have been rectified some time ago.....and i'd rather lighter mechs get some benefit for having more (ei the most maneuverable)