20 replies to this topic

[Monky]

In light of continued tuning on pulse weapons in attempt to make them more like regular laser weaponry, I have some notes and suggestions.

First; Why are we trying to make pulse lasers into regular lasers? Should they not have their own niche? I think so. I think they should be highly accurate versions of normal lasers (ie; able to get all or more of their damage on one component) in exchange for this greatly improved accuracy, increased weight, shortened range, and slightly increased heat begin to make sense.

My suggestion; Reduce the beam time on pulse weapons. Small pulses are in the best position right now, being merely half a ton heavier than small lasers with no range penalty. A slight decrease in beam time is still recommended - you will never see the small pulse laser outside of beginner/joke builds (the same could roughly be said of the small laser however at this point, barring a few builds that can actually capitalize on clustering them). For the medium pulse, which is a ton heavier than a medium and much shorter ranged than its counterpart (at least, pre-buff), a significant drop in beam time is in order. Something on the order of 0.35 seconds to 0.4 seconds. A good shot would be able to fairly well peg someone, making up for the distinct lack of reach and double tonnage. For close-in brawlers, this would quickly become a contentious choice of weapon as it is now highly accurate. Now, for Large Pulse, at 7 tons it needs to rival a PPC. I'm just going to be honest, it needs to. There are few situations you can fit a Large Pulse where it isn't better to go for a PPC - 10 damage in one spot is potent. Once again, beam time is the solution. Since the Large Pulse barely outranges a single medium laser at 7 tons, and is equalled by 2 medium lasers in the same range bracket for comparable heat, the Large Pulse simply needs a very short beam time, no greater than 0.2 seconds.

Now, by beam time, I'm saying it should deal the same total damage per shot, but compact that damage into the new, shorter duration. This turns them into short range but precise energy weapons that don't break the heat bank, giving brawlers more options and diversity without risking adding to the jumpsniper centric meta AND without making all beam weapons as analogous to eachother as possible.

[ollo]

+1

To add onto this: you need a serious incentive to choose 1 MPL over 2 ML, this is rarely the case currently, only under very specific conditions where you just have the tonnage and space left on 80+ ton mechs and nothing else is fitting better.

Edited by ollo, 18 February 2014 - 10:44 AM.

[MavRCK]

May I suggest reading: https://docs.google...._Gf_H4e1mw/edit

Quote:

The issue of Pulse Lasers is divisive, however, at the moment, Pulse Lasers are never seen in competitive or high level play. They are completely imbalanced from a negative point of view: too little damage, severely restricted ranges, too hot. I feel an innovative and courageous approach to Pulse Lasers is required in order to balance them.

Firstly, we should ask why are Pulse Lasers so imbalanced? We know that they have been adjusted and consequently turned out worse than previously! How is this possible?

I believe that the people responsible for balancing Pulse Lasers failed to look at the whole picture. Pulse Lasers are, in particular, much heavier than their Non-Pulse Laser counterparts and despite having a “slightly” (emphasis mine) shorter beam duration do minimal extra damage. However, their heat generation is considerably more.

What is important and key to the whole discussion is that the extra weight that Pulse Lasers weigh could be used for extra heatsinks and the lack of these extra heatsinks must be considered when comparing Pulse Lasers to Non-Pulse Laser + extra heatsinks.

Finally, we must consider that in MWO we have 4 established ranges of engagements: short which I define as 270m or less, medium which extends up to 540m, long which extends up to 800m and very long which is anything past 800m.

Pulse Lasers’ ranges are so restricted that they are only effective at short ranges. Consider that Trevelyas calculations determined that the ER Large Laser is the most damage / heat effective past ranges of 450m and you easily see why Pulse Lasers, especially the Large Pulse Laser, is heat ineffective at ANY range.

With this considerations established, we can now discuss Pulse Lasers:

<snip>

Medium Pulse Lasers (MPL) do 6 damage, 5 heat, dps of 1.67, hps of 1.39, weigh 2 tons and take 1 critical slot. MPL weight 100% more than a Medium Laser, do 20% more damage, 25% more heat and essentially have 50% the range. If you compare a MPL vs a ML with a Double Heatsink or 1.4 heatsinks, you realize that the heat comparison is even more extreme!

It is this MPL = ML + 1 DHS that confuses people as 1 ML = 1 hps. When we look at effective heatinks to negative (EHS), a ML is 10 EHS and a MPL is 14 -- but if we consider that the ML has a bonus 1.4 EHS then the comparison is actually 14 vs 8.6.

Consider that most players run ML in groups of 2 or more and suddenly this comparison is even more important as many mech builds can only support up to an extra 4-7 double heatsinks at best.

(Note, that I acknowledge and I realize I have simplified greatly some of the comparisons but it holds up from my in-game experience and rough mathematics.)

<snip>

Edited by MavRCK, 18 February 2014 - 11:55 AM.

[Monky]

Yes, the effective 'extra equipment you could take instead' bonus of normal lasers vs pulse lasers is another point that has to be balanced against and another check mark against pulses, which is why they should behave as little like traditional lasers as possible. Normal lasers are consistent damage for manageable heat, however they tend to spread wildly. Pulse lasers becoming efficient at hitting a single or at most two locations with spread creates a tactical place for them alongside normal lasers for brawlers, since you're no longer wasting damage (or at least, nowhere near as badly) spreading it around. At the least, you will start to see Pulse lasers becoming a useful close range substitute for heavier ballistics on shorter ranged builds, particularly with restricted # of energy hardpoints/little space or tonnage for ammo and 'big guns'. This is significantly better than the current situation where they are simply discarded by serious players.

Edited by Monky, 18 February 2014 - 11:25 AM.

[Lupin]

Personally I think they have balanced Pulse Lasers in the wrong place, it's not range that's the issue but recycle time.
You know PULSE = faster fire rate, and the trade off is heat and range.

Me I like my laser damage all to go where I am aiming not spread around the mech.

[ImperialKnight]

suggestion: zero cycle time. meaning it keeps pulsing until you let go of the fire button or you overheat

think about it.... take as long as you need

[Blue Boutique]

Laser pulse weapons do fire at a faster rate. The recharge time is the same for both regular and pulse lasers but starts after the weapon is discharged. With the pulses at .6 seconds, the pulses can direct more damage on target over time compared to regular lasers.

Edited by Blue Boutique, 18 February 2014 - 02:44 PM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

The simple fix, weight.

Small Laser 0.5 tons
Small Pulse laser 0.75 tons
Medium Laser 1.0 tons
Medium Pulse laser 1.5 tons
Large Laser 5.0 Tons
ER Large Laser 5.5 Tons
Large Pulse Laser 6.0 Tons

The hard fix.
start adjusting range, heat, dps, and weight in small increments to make them worth the investment over their standard counterparts.

IMO, brawling is dead anyways because of Gauss + PPC poptart meta.
So if there is something to fix, start at the top and work your way down through the other weapons.

Don't nerf lower level energy weapons globally just to balance out ERPPC's.

Start making small changes a little at a time from patch to patch, watch the forums and listen to the playerbase.
At the point people start complaining that Pulse lasers are too OP, stop there, dial it back a tiny tiny bit, then stop.

Its hard to justify taking any energy weapons other than the plain old Medium laser for close range as you start approaching upper Medium mechs, and especially with heavies and assault.

Small lasers are pretty terrible and you don't have enough hardpoints to make them worth it anyways, and Pulse lasers are just too hot for brawling when you need to be shooting alot.

When you only have a couple hardpoints to work with, why not put PPC's there or Large lasers instead IMO.

Lastly, start looking at the possibility of getting Double heatsinks down to 2 slots instead of 3, Builds still come down to weight, and only a very limited # of mechs will be able to deploy FF and ES because of the change.

2 slot DBL heatsinks would open up a world of good for brawler builds, where mediums and pulse might actually become possible to build and cool.

Edited by Mister D, 18 February 2014 - 05:00 PM.

[Monky]

Adjusting weight/crits on existing known equipment in the btech/mechwarrior universe isn't going to happen as it can break build rules which are fundamental to the game. The hard route is the only practical route.

[xXBagheeraXx]

knightsljx, on 18 February 2014 - 02:36 PM, said:

suggestion: zero cycle time. meaning it keeps pulsing until you let go of the fire button or you overheat

think about it.... take as long as you need

I believe that will the the Xpulse lasers thing when they arrive.

[Black Templar]

^
this

Edited by Black Templar, 18 February 2014 - 05:44 PM.

[Savage Wolf]

I was also a bit disappointed to see that they tried to balance the pulse lasers by giving them more range. What I really needed was less heat.

The best thing would actually to balance them by giving them the same tonnage as their normal counterparts, but I know that's not going to happen. Sadly. But that's what you get when you decide to base a game upon an already unbalanced TT game.

What i really want is to trade range for damage but i end up trading range, heat and tonnage for (slight) damage.

[MustrumRidcully]

Savage Wolf, on 18 February 2014 - 11:34 PM, said:

I was also a bit disappointed to see that they tried to balance the pulse lasers by giving them more range. What I really needed was less heat.

The best thing would actually to balance them by giving them the same tonnage as their normal counterparts, but I know that's not going to happen. Sadly. But that's what you get when you decide to base a game upon an already unbalanced TT game.

What i really want is to trade range for damage but i end up trading range, heat and tonnage for (slight) damage.

A LPL weighs 2 tons more than a LL - deduct 2 tons worth of heat sinks of the LPL heat, and you'd be pretty close.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 18 February 2014 - 11:40 PM.

[Cest7]

MavRCK, on 18 February 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

What is important and key to the whole discussion is that the extra weight that Pulse Lasers weigh could be used for extra heatsinks and the lack of these extra heatsinks must be considered when comparing Pulse Lasers to Non-Pulse Laser + extra heatsinks.

This x100. There should be a consideration of heat to damage to tonnage for pulse lasers, the extra tonnage being heatsinks when compared to non-pulse lasers.

A minute bump in range and a small reduction in heat would work, or a reduction in heat and a reduction of cycle time. They should be ~ equal to their non-pulse counterparts, sacrificing range for cycle time/DPS, not heat.

Edited by Cest7, 19 February 2014 - 12:36 AM.

[Savage Wolf]

MustrumRidcully, on 18 February 2014 - 11:39 PM, said:

A LPL weighs 2 tons more than a LL - deduct 2 tons worth of heat sinks of the LPL heat, and you'd be pretty close.

Pretty close to what?

[IronEricP]

I had an idea with regards to changing the functionality of pulse lasers. It would make them a whole new beast.

You can read the post here: http://mwomercs.com/...05#entry3160805

[John MatriX82]

The easiest way is to screw TT and lower their weight. Nothing else. Dual MPL means 4 tons, lowered range, halved damage over slapping 4 medium lasers.

6 tons for LPL, 1,5 for MPL and the weird 0.75 for SPLs. Suddendly lights would be interested into bringing a few pulse lasers to dogfight other lights, bigger mechs could be encouraged to use them a bit more because you can compensate heat with a few extra DHSs.

[Bad Andy]

They should be either the same weight or the same heat. I don't care about TT either. Shorter range is a huge balancing factor, if you think it isn't, look at how many people are still boating ERLL/PPC

[MavRCK]

Savage Wolf, on 18 February 2014 - 11:34 PM, said:

I was also a bit disappointed to see that they tried to balance the pulse lasers by giving them more range. What I really needed was less heat.

The best thing would actually to balance them by giving them the same tonnage as their normal counterparts, but I know that's not going to happen. Sadly. But that's what you get when you decide to base a game upon an already unbalanced TT game.

What i really want is to trade range for damage but i end up trading range, heat and tonnage for (slight) damage.

Well, consider that damage is also proportional to the range.. after the ideal range, the damage of pulse lasers tapers off until it's maximum range.

This is why ERLL are dmg / heat effective >> than a LL at 450m. That's a short range!

Let me quote more from my article:

Pulse Lasers’ ranges are so restricted that they are only effective at short ranges. Consider that Trevelyas calculations determined that the ER Large Laser is the most damage / heat effective past ranges of 450m and you easily see why Pulse Lasers, especially the Large Pulse Laser, is heat ineffective at ANY range.

This also applies to Medium Lasers vs Medium Pulse Lasers -- Medium Pulse Lasers are heat ineffective vs Medium Lasers (dps / hps) at any range at the moment! -- we have 3 ways to fix this: 1) increase dps 2) increase range 3) decrease hps.

My recommendations are in my article and are summarized in my spreadsheet:

https://docs.google....drive_web#gid=0

[Wesxander]

IN battle tech pulse lasers do more damage and have huge hit bonus against any target in range . In shooter that's hard to translate the hit bonus.
Best answer is way faste weapon cycle time. A pulse laser currently has been nerfed that there is no noticeable difference between regular lasers (with huge better range) and pulse on cycle times.
Either change the cycle time back to the old rate of fire OR INCREASE DAMAGE DRAMATICALLY INSIDE EFFECTIVE range with huge max range damage drop off.
My solution would be large pulse does 11 points damage inside of 325 and only 4 points of damage outside that range.
The medium pulse would be similar 7 points of damage inside of its effective range and only 2 outside that range.
This would make light mechs want keep their distance with these weapons just like an ac 20.

Edited by Wesxander, 20 February 2014 - 12:41 PM.