58 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

stjobe, on 23 February 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

Finally, in a bizarre turn of events that still has me reeling, I actually agree with Sandpit: Why penalize someone for using JJs?

[Joseph Mallan]

stjobe, on 23 February 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

Which AMS systems would that be, specifically?

Also, 'mechs are decidedly not infantry.


No AMS system I've heard of (that uses a gun) tracks by IR; they track by radar (see e.g. the Goalkeeper CIWS and Phalanx CIWS; both radar-guided).

It's pretty hard to detect the IR signature of a missile coming straight at you; the hot part is on the side facing away from you...

Finally, in a bizarre turn of events that still has me reeling, I actually agree with Sandpit: Why penalize someone for using JJs?

Hey statistically you can't disagree with him all the time! Kinda like that broken Clock being right twice a day!

[Khobai]

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Why penalize someone for using JJs?

If you think being shot at by a machine gun is a penalty then thats laughable. The purpose seems to be to make AMS more worthwhile rather than punish JJ users. And I think if AMS can be switched into some kindve point defense mode it should shoot at ALL enemy mechs, not just the Jump Jetting ones. Like having an automated machine gun turret on your mech.

[stjobe]

Khobai, on 23 February 2014 - 11:29 AM, said:

If you think being shot at by a machine gun is a penalty then thats laughable.

Getting damaged by an automatic (no user input needed) system isn't a penalty? One could argue how big the penalty was, but to dismiss it as not a penalty at all is what's laughable.

Also, the DPS of a single AMS system is 3.5; higher than an AC/5. It's not a machine gun.

Khobai, on 23 February 2014 - 11:29 AM, said:

The purpose seems to be to make AMS more worthwhile

Then improve its effectiveness against missiles. It's an Anti-MISSILE system, not a general-purpose auto-aimed AC/5.

Edited by stjobe, 23 February 2014 - 11:36 AM.

[Khobai]

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Then improve its effectiveness against missiles. It's an Anti-MISSILE system, not a general-purpose auto-aimed AC/2.

Like I said, battletech has optional rules for firing AMS at other mechs. It wouldnt do 3.5dps though, more like 1dps, since its supposed to be the equivalent of a machine gun when fired at mechs.

Also LRMs are already bad, improving AMS so it shoots down more missiles would just be the last nail in the coffin. Buffing AMS in a way that makes it more useful without making LRMs completely useless seems like a good idea to me. It also gives AMS a use when the enemy team has no missiles. And mechs like the Atlas-K might not be so bad anymore if they got two free machine gun turrets.

Edited by Khobai, 23 February 2014 - 11:43 AM.

[stjobe]

Khobai, on 23 February 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

Like I said, battletech has optional rules for firing AMS at other mechs.

I just did a search through my PDF of Total Warfare and could find no such rule, would you care to point me to where it exists?

[Sandpit]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 February 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

Hey statistically you can't disagree with him all the time! Kinda like that broken Clock being right twice a day!

Well, what about different time zones? Yea, I went there.

Khobai, on 23 February 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

Like I said, battletech has optional rules for firing AMS at other mechs. It wouldnt do 3.5dps though, more like 1dps, since its supposed to be the equivalent of a machine gun when fired at mechs. machine gun turrets.

[citation needed]
In 30 years of Btech I've never seen this rule

[Noesis]

Sandpit, on 23 February 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

[citation needed]
In 30 years of Btech I've never seen this rule

Tactical Operations Manual, Page 100

[stjobe]

Sandpit, on 23 February 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

Well, what about different time zones? Yea, I went there.

I think what poor ol' Joe was trying to say is that it's akin to the old adage "a stopped clock is right twice a day", which is true regardless of time zones. A broken clock may not ever be right, even though lots of people mistakenly use the word "broken" instead of "stopped" in the saying.

Noesis, on 23 February 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

Tactical Operations Manual, Page 100

Thank you.

That kind of implies that it's not automatic though; just that it can be fired as a very short-ranged MG. I'd actually be okay with that, it's the automatic part I'm mostly opposed to.

If it had to be targeted and fired manually, I don't see much of an issue with it.

Edited by stjobe, 23 February 2014 - 12:17 PM.

[Sandpit]

Noesis, on 23 February 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

Tactical Operations Manual, Page 100

Thank you sir

So it has a range of 30 meters? (I'm gonna break out my Tac Ops Manual later)

Even still I have yet to see a good reason why AMS should be used to shoot down light mechs (since at that range it's not going to do jack against poptarters sniping)

[Khobai]

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So it has a range of 30 meters? (I'm gonna break out my Tac Ops Manual later)

can be increased, machine guns were increased from 90 to 120, not everything has to or should be the same as tabletop.

[Sandpit]

Khobai, on 23 February 2014 - 01:53 PM, said:

can be increased, machine guns were increased from 90 to 120, not everything has to or should be the same as tabletop.

Exactly, so why, yet again, should AMS shoot down light mechs using their JJs as intended and desperately needed to survive? I'm STILL waiting to an answer to this and I won't stop asking it because every single person supporting this idea is ignoring and glossing over the ramifications this would have on light mechs performing scouting and spotting roles.

[stjobe]

Khobai, on 23 February 2014 - 01:53 PM, said:

can be increased, machine guns were increased from 90 to 120, not everything has to or should be the same as tabletop.

A third of the MG's 120m range is 40m. Sounds fair.

So an AMS can double as a 40m MG. Manually aimed and fired, of course, and obviously not available for actual AMS use when doing so.

I'd say go for it; it's nigh-on useless, but could probably be finagled into critting something out once in a blue moon - if you hadn't used up all your AMS ammo on actual AMS duty while closing with the enemy.

[OldCowboy]

I'm sure using ams against mechs has been brought up. But yeah I think that would be pretty cool. Damage to mechs would be the same as a machine gun but at 3/4 or eve 1/2 the range and require pilot aim. And multiply the weapon spread. Nerf the hell out of it but make it usable as a gun lol.

Oh fantasies.....

[OneEyed Jack]

Khobai, on 23 February 2014 - 11:29 AM, said:

If you think being shot at by a machine gun is a penalty then thats laughable. The purpose seems to be to make AMS more worthwhile rather than punish JJ users. And I think if AMS can be switched into some kindve point defense mode it should shoot at ALL enemy mechs, not just the Jump Jetting ones. Like having an automated machine gun turret on your mech.

Thinks Streaks are bad, but the equivalent of 35 fully-automated, extremely accurate machine guns for 0.5 tons (some mechs able to carry twice that) is a good idea....

I might have to save a link to this for when the argument comes up that people with high Elo should have more input because they "know more."

[Mudhutwarrior]

Maybe a module of some kind to allow it? Like 40 k for arty its a one time thing.

Wait, I know how that works out

Never mind, thinking it through even I have to agree with Sandpit.

I need a drink..

[Khobai]

Quote

Exactly, so why, yet again, should AMS shoot down light mechs using their JJs as intended and desperately needed to survive? I'm STILL waiting to an answer to this and I won't stop asking it because every single person supporting this idea is ignoring and glossing over the ramifications this would have on light mechs performing scouting and spotting roles.

I said it should shoot all enemy mechs not just the JJing ones. Whether its manual or automatic doesnt matter to me, but you should be able to fire your AMS like machine guns. Because then taking AMS is a lot more worthwhile, since you can still use it as an extra machine gun, if the enemy has no missiles.

Quote

Thinks Streaks are bad, but the equivalent of 35 fully-automated, extremely accurate machine guns for 0.5 tons (some mechs able to carry twice that) is a good idea....

Huh? It would be a toggle. You could toggle it from automatic AMS mode to manual AMS mode. In automatic AMS mode it would automatically shoot down missiles. In manual AMS mode you could fire it like a regular machine gun. You could shoot other mechs or manually shoot down missiles with it. It would do 1 dps with a x3.5 damage multiplier vs missiles. So against mechs it would be identical to a machine gun and against missiles it would do the same damage as AMS.

I really dont see how that would be unbalanced. You people act like AMS firing like a machine gun would be more overpowered than 40 point alphastrikes. It simply gives AMS a useful secondary function for when the enemy team isnt firing missiles at you. And if there was a module you could install that made them fully automated machine gun turrets, even that wouldnt be overpowered, because theyre still just machine guns.

Quote

Thinks Streaks are bad, but the equivalent of 35 fully-automated, extremely accurate machine guns for 0.5 tons (some mechs able to carry twice that) is a good idea....

its not 35 machine guns its 1 machine gun with a damage modifier vs missiles.

Edited by Khobai, 23 February 2014 - 04:10 PM.

[Sgt Ironballs]

To sandpits reapeted question- if a mech can invest a few tons in jj to leap over mechs and turn on a dime, and reach imapssible areas, an ecm mech can invest a few tons to become radar invisible and shield allies from lock, is an auto machine gun for the same tonnage really seam all that overpowered when the only downside to any of these id similar mass? JJ and ecm are usefull every single match. Ams can be dead weight depending totally on your enemy. I dont think an added benifit like point defense is unreasonable, or incapable of balancing.

Another good idea by khobai!

[Sandpit]

Mudhutwarrior, on 23 February 2014 - 02:35 PM, said:

Never mind, thinking it through even I have to agree with Sandpit.

I need a drink..

That right there should be the end of this thread and suggestion lol

Sgt Ironballs, on 23 February 2014 - 04:30 PM, said:

is an auto machine gun for the same tonnage really seam all that overpowered

yes, it does.
"I can't shoot this mech so I should have an auto aim option to do it for me"

That's EXACTLY what's being asked for here.

[Deathlike]

For the sake of argument... you guys do know that AMS does fire at stuff whether it actually has proper LOS?

I'm not exactly sure if the AMS projectile goes through buildings, but if it did, I'd like the blue pill please.