50 replies to this topic

[Lykaon]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 22 February 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

Electronic Warfare in MWO is currenlty all about a series of hard counters, which mechanic is toxic to good gameplay.

What it should be is a series of interacting soft counters.

ECM - +50% lock-on time with LRMs/SSRMs, -50% detection radius for sensors. Protects all mechs inside 180m.
TAG - -25% lock-on time with LRMs/SSRMs.
Artemis IV - -30% lock-on time with LRMs, -25% group size for missile volleys.
NARC - Reveals the target as a lockable signature to friendlies inside 700m. ECM cuts that in half to 350m. Lasts 45s.
BAP - +20% sensor range. -10% lock-on time with LRMs/SSRMs. -10% Target Info Gathering time. Detects all mechs inside 180m, regardless of LoS or reactor status. ECM reduces the LoS-free detection capability to 90m.

Everything stacks addatively (+50% for ECM protection, -30% for Artemis, -25% for TAG, -10% for BAP, you get a net modifier of -15% to lock-on timers).

Numbers subject to change.

This is similar to many of my past proposals back when ECM was first dropped on us and we still had a hope of seeing it turned into something resembling information warfare (it was still Beta)\

My only recomendation would be BAP should have a cone of view in the direction the mech is facing rather than a 360 degree 300m across bubble of wall hacking.This would require some active participation from a recon pilot as they would need to "scan" an area rather than simply pass through it.

[Foxfire]

Mister D, on 23 February 2014 - 01:20 AM, said:

Why would allowing 1 BAP the ability to jam ECM's at 90 meters break the game and make ECM useless?

If you're that close to the enemy mechs, their positions are already given away and can be seen on screen to your teamates and their minimaps.

IMO Tag alone should be able to defeat ECM and allow a missile strike thought any number of ECM's as well, you have LOS and are painting the target with an IR hotspot which should bypass any kind of electronic interference anyway.

When its a group of Atlas-DC, they can't be toutched by the very weapons designed to counter them when there is ECM overlap unless you NARC each of them at least once, or have PPC's constantly striking each target perfectly for the time thats needed to lockon with SSRM or LRM, which is pretty close to impossible.

If a scout is lucky enough to survive being within 90 meters of a group of atlas & their support for any length of time, that window should be open for the short amount of time that its alive.

Mechs specifically designed to counter lights, such as Kintaro ,ShadowHawk, Jenner-OXIDE, Trebuchet with their high speed and ability to carry a decent load of SSRM racks, become pointless when their main weapon can't even fire.

I have to laugh when ECM is defended so much, and posters defend how OP it is, because they know it and don't want to give up their invincibility cloak.

I don't like being pounded by LRM's either, but LRM are pretty ineffective weapon as is and ECM makes it even harder, and stacked ECM makes it near impossible.

BAP only counters at 90 meters which is pretty much instant death when you're talking about a Kintaro or an Oxide facing off against a couple Atlas.

First of all, TAG does do exactly that. Stand outside of an ECM bubble and ping a DC in the middle of a pack of DC and you can make it rain on them.

Second, unlike ECM which is limited to certain chassis, the BAP is equippable on every mech. You can use hard counters against the ECM mech or outright try to purposefully destroy it to eliminate the ECM from the field... but you won't be able to do the same with the BAP mech.

Third, that is the risk you accept by basing your builds on streaks. There needs to be a downside to using streaks because they are so easy to use.

Finally, it is the fact that every streak based mech will run around with BAP that will make it so prevalent that will make ECM useless if a single BAP could counter all ECM.

Edited by Foxfire, 23 February 2014 - 05:46 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

stjobe, on 22 February 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

No, it does not make sense that Guardian ECM affect Streaks, as it is explicitly stated in the TT rules that it doesn't. You'd need an Angel ECM Suite for that.

Also, SRMs aren't really any "simpler" than SSRMs; there's little difference between them and they're both guided missiles. The main difference is that the Streak launcher won't launch if not every missile has a hard lock (so as to preserve ammo), whereas the SRM launcher will fire whether or not the missiles have lock. See Tech Manual, pp 229-230.

The only dumb-fire missiles in BattleTech are the MRMs.

Oh I do know that St. I know the Guardian rules pretty well, The High Lighted is where I am looking when I say guided. Our SRMs don't really curve to hit a target to my eyes, and thus do work more like a LoS weapon like ACs and Lasers. LRMs pount the terrain until you have a good lock, then they fly up over hills to the spotted target. SRMs just keep blasting the terrain.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 23 February 2014 - 06:01 AM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Lykaon, on 23 February 2014 - 04:48 AM, said:

You do know that even with BAP an ECM suite has a negative effect on streak missiles?

Here is the break down.

Streaks max range 270m.

Any mech with an ECM or under friendly ECM's bubble is immune to being locked onto by streaks.

An ECM projects this jamming effect 180m in every direction.

BAP nullifies one enemy ECM within 150m of it.

So,say you are using streaks with no ECM present.You would have an effective range of 270m.

But let's say you were trying to use streaks against an enemy with ECM on board you get nadda no locks wasted tonnage no way of ever making this 2.5 tons of weapon (1.5 ton launcher 1 ton ammo) work because the enemy has 1.5 tons of nanny nanny doo doo your streaks are total poopoo plugged in.

Add a BAP and now you have a max effective range of 150m with your streaks so even when "countered" by a BAP an ECM nerfs streak range by 120m or.nearly half it's max range.

So no sympathy from me because even "countered" an ECM provides a benifit against streaks.


Hopefully someone over in the Development team will grow a brain and realize the ECM feature is monsterous mess and needs to go back to the drawing board.

Bingo, you hit it right on the nose.

Now add 1 more ECM, and not only are you losing range, you're losing your entire weapon system for whatever the tonnage cost is.

[East Indy]

If only LRM and Streak missiles had a dynamic lock-on mechanic that could be prolonged by ECM and restored by BAP, instead of ECM rendering those weapons useless.

. . .

stjobe, on 22 February 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

The only dumb-fire missiles in BattleTech are the MRMs.

That's why I wish we'd just get over SRM hit detection not working, make SRMs lock-on, balance them to be reasonable while keeping Streaks superior, and call it a day.

[Cyborne Elemental]

I always thought of SRM's as FFAR's like you see on modern day attack Helicopters, just a big mess of dumb rockets flying as straight as their design and conditions allowed.

Streaks being mini-heatseekers, or laser guided.

What would be nice is to have a Wireguided type alternative, something you can semi-guide to its target but with no automated tracking or targeting required, like a TOW missle would be a good inbetween Full guided automation and dumbfire.

TBH what would make regular SRM's more useful would be a little bit of acceleration as they traveled, leading and hitting anything at near or max range is very difficult, even with artemis keeping them tight, thats what makes S-SRM's so attractive, especially when engaging lights.

Edited by Mister D, 23 February 2014 - 08:00 AM.

[Gremlich Johns]

Actual ECM and ECCM (BAP) do not function like it does in PGI. Real life ECM disrupts communications and radar by putting out more RF that the transmitting enemy station/entity. In the former, the enemy mechs would be able to hear you talk, but not their commanders or whoever is directing traffic. In the latter, it would obscure radar returns - it does not negate them, it just hides the returns in garbage making it difficult to determine what it is that you're really looking at.

In real life, if ECM is on too long (or if an intercept operator knows what he is skilled), it gets targeted and destroyed within 2-4 minutes by a LOT of artillery (missiles, conventional projectiles, or rockets we are looking at a minimum of a battery 6 (36 rounds) for the latter two). ECM in RL does not shield anything because it broadcasts so "loudly" it gets targeted and destroyed as soon as possible. Why? when viewed on an O-scope, ECM in RL makes a section of the RF spectrum it is operating in look like a picket fence. It is easy to DF and destroy. ECM also impacts anybody in its transmission range, even friendly forces. So, whatever effects are being projected towards the enemy, affects the friendly forces similarly.

The purpose behind ECM is to deny command and control. It is a double-edged sword if you are do not know how to effectively use it. You cannot hide an entire aggressing force under it.

Video Games are fantasy and ECM/ECCM in MW:O (a fantasy game) reflects nothing fact based. It does what PGI wants it to do.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 23 February 2014 - 10:18 AM.

[DocBach]

Lykaon, on 23 February 2014 - 04:56 AM, said:

This is similar to many of my past proposals back when ECM was first dropped on us and we still had a hope of seeing it turned into something resembling information warfare (it was still Beta)\

My only recomendation would be BAP should have a cone of view in the direction the mech is facing rather than a 360 degree 300m across bubble of wall hacking.This would require some active participation from a recon pilot as they would need to "scan" an area rather than simply pass through it.

I was thinking BAP's 360 cone could work like the old sonar screens from WWII flicks where it spins and refreshes to give you pings where the enemies location.

[stjobe]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 February 2014 - 06:01 AM, said:

Our SRMs don't really curve to hit a target to my eyes, and thus do work more like a LoS weapon like ACs and Lasers. LRMs pount the terrain until you have a good lock, then they fly up over hills to the spotted target. SRMs just keep blasting the terrain.

That's because nobody at PGI has read the Tech Manual...

SRMs in BattleTech are guided, period. That PGI chose to implement them as dumbfire rockets does not change that fact, it just makes the MWO SRMs wrongly implemented.

Mister D, on 23 February 2014 - 07:59 AM, said:

I always thought of SRM's as FFAR's like you see on modern day attack Helicopters, just a big mess of dumb rockets flying as straight as their design and conditions allowed.

See above. That PGI implemented Short Range Missiles as Rockets only serves to highlight two things:
1. They don't know the difference between a missile and a rocket (hint: one is guided, the other is not).
2. They aren't familiar with BattleTech lore.

Mister D, on 23 February 2014 - 07:59 AM, said:

Streaks being mini-heatseekers, or laser guided.

See my previous post on this; there's little difference in the guidance of SRMs and SSRMs, the major difference is that the SSRM launcher won't fire until ALL missiles have a hard lock, thus saving ammunition (which is the only point of SSRMs in the first place; they're not supposed to be a "better" SRM, they're supposed to save ammunition).

Mister D, on 23 February 2014 - 07:59 AM, said:

TBH what would make regular SRM's more useful would be a little bit of acceleration as they traveled, leading and hitting anything at near or max range is very difficult, even with artemis keeping them tight, thats what makes S-SRM's so attractive, especially when engaging lights.

What would make SRMs useful would be to make them guided as they should be, but allow firing before each missile had a lock - hey, that sounds just like the description in the Tech Manual!

Imagine that.

Then give them and SSRMs the same damage, implement the old limited maneuverability, and give them a speed boost, and we're good to go.

Edited by stjobe, 23 February 2014 - 09:25 AM.

[Bront]

xhrit, on 22 February 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

bap stacks too.

What if you mount more than 1 on a mech? Does it stack then?

[Khobai]

Quote

SRMs in BattleTech are guided, period.

I agree. If they werent guided than Artemis and NARC would have no effect on them like MRMs. Also they would get a to-hit penalty for being unguided like MRMs. SRMs are definitely guided weapons.