404 replies to this topic

[Cimarb]

Varent, on 07 March 2014 - 12:44 PM, said:

Going to play with the numbers still this is basically a 'rough draft' so far with comments concerns and ideas encouraged so I can make a nicely well polished final draft. Ive actually made variants of each where some essentially now fire non stop while the trigger is held down and others are burst or single slug, with the damage being distributed over a series of rounds. Most of these are balanced with the factors of spread damage, heat, Cd and other factors worked in. That said on the topic of machine gun style firing...

(Pasted table fail, lol)

Why on gods green earth are there so many makers for machine guns... I was hoping it would be fewer. I could use some ideas on them.

thoughts?

The cone would be a good place to start. Make the damage ticks slower, but with less spread.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I still love our giant 15 page threads that never get acknowledged. It's awesome.

[Cimarb]

stjobe, on 07 March 2014 - 12:54 PM, said:

Let's for argument's sake consider a hypothetical 3 DPS weapon that comes in three versions:

Single-shot
Does 9 damage in a single shot every 3 seconds.

Burst-fire
Does 9 damage in a burst of three 3-damage shots over 0.6 seconds, with 2.4 seconds cooldown.

Continuous-fire
Does 9 damage in 9 1-damage shots every 0.33 seconds, as long as you hold down the trigger.

Are these variants balanced? Are they even the same weapon, with just "manufacturer quirks"?

In MWO we have the first and the last, and as an avid MG user let me tell you that continuous-fire really, really sucks compared to single-shot. It leaves you no room to maneuver without losing DPS and it's so much harder to hold on to a target location than to pull the trigger once when your reticule is in the right place it's not even funny.

That's what I don't like about single-shot ACs; they're easier to use offensively, they are better defensively, and they damage the target better than the other variants do (all damage guaranteed to go to one location, which is optimal from a killing perspective).

That's a lot of benefits that needs drawbacks if the three variants are to come out as equal, and I've yet to see anyone come up with those drawbacks (props to Varent and Cimarb for trying though, it'll be interesting to see how you make it work).

This is totally based upon what I personally would like to see, not necessarily something that would be balanced, but I would like burst-fire weapons to have the same screen shake as the FLD versions, but continuous. If I fire a single-slug AC20, it goes BOOM and knocks your screen harshly for a split second. If I instead fire off a Gatling AC20, you get shook like a rag doll the whole time I keep the bead on you. This would be a significant bonus to the burst/sustained versions, and offset you not being able to torso twist in defense.

[Varent]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 07 March 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

I still love our giant 15 page threads that never get acknowledged. It's awesome.

single posts on twitter getting acknowledged make me sad in the pants.

Cimarb, on 07 March 2014 - 01:25 PM, said:

This is totally based upon what I personally would like to see, not necessarily something that would be balanced, but I would like burst-fire weapons to have the same screen shake as the FLD versions, but continuous. If I fire a single-slug AC20, it goes BOOM and knocks your screen harshly for a split second. If I instead fire off a Gatling AC20, you get shook like a rag doll the whole time I keep the bead on you. This would be a significant bonus to the burst/sustained versions, and offset you not being able to torso twist in defense.

I agree, and it would also make more people use the enhanced gyroes module. Would be nice.

[Artgathan]

If we're going to implement burst-fire / continuous fire ballistics I think the burst / continuous fire versions should have some feature that is superior to the single-shot version. Consider:

Given the choice between two weapons, one of which does 20 damage in 1 shot and requires you to stay on target for a fraction of a second, or another weapon which does 20 damage in 4 shots (5 damage each) and requires you to stay or target for 1 second, which do you pick?

If the 4-shot version did slightly more damage (6 damage per shot, for a potential 24 damage), or generated less heat, or had a faster ROF, or more range, there would be interesting choices to make.

[Varent]

Ok Machine gun were hard just because there are so damn many of them. I decided instead of making them all super unique just to toss out a couple interesting variants. I didnt want to play with damage numbers too much since that can make things wonky fast. But realistically (anyone in military or law enforcement will know this) large caliber weapons firing at quick speeds WILL build heat... so adding a 'minor' heat mechanic to the machine gun for some range benifits and extra crit I felt was pretty worthwhile. I didnt bother adding to much since I think Machine gun are in a good place overall... suggestions welcome.

Machine Gun -

Armstrong MiniGun - 150 -300 Range, .25 Heat Per Second. -10% spread -10% rate of fire
Manufactured by United Outworlders Corporation on Ramora

Blackwell B75 - 180-360 Range, .5 Heat Per second. +10% spread +10 % rate of fire
Manufactured by Blackwell heavy Industries on Outreach

Bulldog Minigun - -10% spread -10% rate of fire
Manufactured by Bulldog Enterprises on Ingersoll and Proserpina

Double-Gun – .35 Heat Per Sec. Increased Crit Rate, 8% chance .90 dmg 5% chance 1.8 dmg 2% chance 2.7 dmg
Manufactured by Achernar Battlemechs on New Avalon

Coventry Light Autogun - .35 Heat Per Sec. Increased Crit Rate, 8% chance .90 dmg 5% chance 1.8 dmg 2% chance 2.7 dmg
Manufactured by Coventry Metal Works on Coventry

Gatling Gun 20mm – +10% spread +10% rate of fire
Manufactured by Quikscell Company on Ares, Layover, Kalidasa, Gallery and Salem

GM MiniGun - 180-360 Range, .5 Heat Per second.
Manufactured by General Motors on Salem

Johnston Minigun - .35 Heat Per Sec. Increased Crit Rate, 8% chance .90 dmg 5% chance 1.8 dmg 2% chance 2.7 dmg
Manufactured by Johnston Industries on New Syrtis

Kicker - .35 Heat Per Sec. Increased Crit Rate, 8% chance .90 dmg 5% chance 1.8 dmg 2% chance 2.7 dmg
Manufactured by Cyclops Incorporated on Skye

LFN Linbald – Basic Machine Gun, No Changes.
Manufactured by Earthwerks Incorporated on Grand Base
Manufactured by Nimakachi Fusion Products Limited on Tematagi
Manufactured by Ronin Incorporated on Wallis
Manufactured by Vandenberg Mechanized Industries on Illiushin

MainFire Minigun - 150 -300 Range, .25 Heat Per Second.
Manufactured by Cal-Boeing of Dorwinion on Belladonna

Maxi Mini - .35 Heat Per Sec. Increased Crit Rate, 8% chance .90 dmg 5% chance 1.8 dmg 2% chance 2.7 dmg
Manufactured by Ceres Metals Industries on Menke

Mydron Mini-Gun - 180-360 Range, .5 Heat Per second.
Manufactured by Bithinian Ballistics on Bithinia

Scattergun Light - .35 Heat Per Sec. Increased Crit Rate, 8% chance .90 dmg 5% chance 1.8 dmg 2% chance 2.7 dmg
Manufactured by New trading Company on New Earth

SperryBrowning – 150-300 Range, .25 Heat Per Second.
Manufactured by Lexatech Industries on Hun Ho
Manufactured by Majesty Metals and manufacturing on Canopus IV
Manufactured by Ceres Metals Industries on Indicass
Manufactured by Pinard Protectorates Limited on Macleod’s Land

SureFire Minigun - 150 -300 Range, .25 Heat Per Second.
Manufactured by Coventry Metal Works on Coventry
Manufactured by Red Devil Industries on Pandora

Voelkers 200 – 180-360 Range, .5 Heat Per second.
Manufactured by Vandenberg Mechanized Industries on Pinard.

Edited by Varent, 07 March 2014 - 04:22 PM.

[Cimarb]

Reduce the cone spread by slowing the RoF would be the best variation for MGs, imo

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 07 March 2014 - 02:10 PM, said:

Reduce the cone spread by slowing the RoF would be the best variation for MGs, imo

as I said, dont wanna play with the numbers since that can get wonky fast. Its a thought though, taking out some options and putting in one or two of those could be a thought. Maybe put in a quick way of explaining it since I also want this laid out in a way thats easy for anyone to understand and read over?

[Trauglodyte]

I like where your head is at, Varent. TOok a while for you to put that together and I think a lot of us appreciate or rather I do. But, I'm going to ask you one thing and it may put a damper on your parade:

You've listed the UAC5 and that is all fine and good. But, how do you go about addressing the Clan UACs? I'm not sure that there is even information on it but whenever people bring up burst fire ACs, they always forget about the UAC2. You've got a window of 0.52 seconds to fire two shots. The current game coding for this doesn't even exist but it being added on the back end.

More importantly, though, how does any of this change the behavior of people wanting to fire all of their damage in one shot? Different weapon actions are great but people will just flock to the manufacturer that does it all at once despite the cost increase. CW is supposed to have something like a black market and/or your loyalty is supposed to impact the cost of gear. None of us know how that will be added so all of this is just academic at the moment.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 07 March 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

I still love our giant 15 page threads that never get acknowledged. It's awesome.

To be fair the thread title is a little misleading. I can imagine every Dev looking that title and thinking "Good thing I didn't say anything about burst fire, someone else's problem."

Now if they hadn't canned all their community managers, this thread might get some traction.

[Varent]

Trauglodyte, on 07 March 2014 - 02:28 PM, said:

I like where your head is at, Varent. TOok a while for you to put that together and I think a lot of us appreciate or rather I do. But, I'm going to ask you one thing and it may put a damper on your parade:

You've listed the UAC5 and that is all fine and good. But, how do you go about addressing the Clan UACs? I'm not sure that there is even information on it but whenever people bring up burst fire ACs, they always forget about the UAC2. You've got a window of 0.52 seconds to fire two shots. The current game coding for this doesn't even exist but it being added on the back end.

More importantly, though, how does any of this change the behavior of people wanting to fire all of their damage in one shot? Different weapon actions are great but people will just flock to the manufacturer that does it all at once despite the cost increase. CW is supposed to have something like a black market and/or your loyalty is supposed to impact the cost of gear. None of us know how that will be added so all of this is just academic at the moment.

I dont know what CW will entail. Only a dev can answer most of this. that said the bursts arent... that long really. Its long enough that you have to hold abit and it might spread a touch but not long enough that its completely unfavorable. I feel they will likely add in quite abit of debate.

As for clan weapons. Im not touching them until that happens. I think trying to work an overall concept out there with just sphere weapons is enough for now, can balance clan later.

[Trauglodyte]

Varent, on 07 March 2014 - 02:37 PM, said:

I dont know what CW will entail. Only a dev can answer most of this. that said the bursts arent... that long really. Its long enough that you have to hold abit and it might spread a touch but not long enough that its completely unfavorable. I feel they will likely add in quite abit of debate.

As for clan weapons. Im not touching them until that happens. I think trying to work an overall concept out there with just sphere weapons is enough for now, can balance clan later.

Understood. Btw, the cool down on the weapons would need to start the second the last bullet fired otherwise having the burst wouldn't really dampen the DPS and would circumvent the current mechanics for lasers and missiles when fired out of smaller tube counts.

[Varent]

Trauglodyte, on 07 March 2014 - 02:39 PM, said:

Understood. Btw, the cool down on the weapons would need to start the second the last bullet fired otherwise having the burst wouldn't really dampen the DPS and would circumvent the current mechanics for lasers and missiles when fired out of smaller tube counts.

Cool down time reduction can be increased then on a few models to reflect this. I was leaving it out of the equation for simplicity. A more polished format to view stats will follow as soon as ive gone over lasers then missles.

[Cimarb]

Varent, on 07 March 2014 - 02:17 PM, said:

as I said, dont wanna play with the numbers since that can get wonky fast. Its a thought though, taking out some options and putting in one or two of those could be a thought. Maybe put in a quick way of explaining it since I also want this laid out in a way thats easy for anyone to understand and read over?

You are playing with the numbers by saying +1 heat, -2 cooldown, so what's the difference? Just say -10% spread, -10% RoF.

Trauglodyte, on 07 March 2014 - 02:28 PM, said:

I like where your head is at, Varent. TOok a while for you to put that together and I think a lot of us appreciate or rather I do. But, I'm going to ask you one thing and it may put a damper on your parade:

You've listed the UAC5 and that is all fine and good. But, how do you go about addressing the Clan UACs? I'm not sure that there is even information on it but whenever people bring up burst fire ACs, they always forget about the UAC2. You've got a window of 0.52 seconds to fire two shots. The current game coding for this doesn't even exist but it being added on the back end.

More importantly, though, how does any of this change the behavior of people wanting to fire all of their damage in one shot? Different weapon actions are great but people will just flock to the manufacturer that does it all at once despite the cost increase. CW is supposed to have something like a black market and/or your loyalty is supposed to impact the cost of gear. None of us know how that will be added so all of this is just academic at the moment.

It gives options, and what we are trying to do is figure out how to balance the FLD with other mechanics. UACs just need to work the same, but allow accelerated firing rates with the chance of jamming.

[Varent]

I wanted the changes to be fairly subtle so didnt do anything too major on the lasers since the pulse lasers in between them might overlap abit if I went two heavy into it. That said the amount of vendors out there allowed for alot of diversity of options that cross ebtween range, heat, cool down and beam duration.

Large Laser


BlazeFire Systems - +.5 Heat, -.15 Beam Duration.
Manufactured by Johnston Industries on New Syrtis

Bulldog - +1 Heat, -.25 Beam Duration.
Manufactured by Bulldog Enterprises on Ingersoll and Proserpina

ChrisComp 43 Special - +.15 Beam Duration -.5 Heat
Manufactured by Achernar battlemechs on New Avelon

Cyclops Eye - +.25 Beam Duration -1 heat
Manufacture by Cyclops Incorporated on Skye

Defiance B3L - +.15 Beam Duration Double HP -.25 Heat.
Manufactured by defiance Industries on Hesperus II

Diverse Optices Type 30 - +.25 Beam Duration Double HP -.5 Heat
Manufactured by Diverse Optics Incorporated on Kessel

Exostar – Range - 500-1000 +.15 Beam Duration.
Manufactured by Dynamico Limited on Delavan

Firmir Maxilase - Range - 400-800 -.15 Beam Duration.
Manufactured by Firmir Weaponry on Betelgeuse

Krupp Model 32 - Range - 500-1000 +1 heat
Manufactured by Krupp Stellar Technologies Inc. On Mars

Lushann Redbeam – Range 400-800 -1 heat
Manufactured by Lushann Industrials Limited on Lushann

Magna MK III – Basic Large Laser, no changes.
Manufactured by Magna on Lopez
Manufactured by Red Devil Industries on Pandora
Manufactured by General mechanics on mars

Maxell SR – Range 400-800 -.5 Cooldown.
Manufactured by Wangker Aerospace on Mars

Nightwind – Range 500-1000 +.5 Cooldown
Manufactured by Norse-Storm Technologies Incorporated on Loxley

RAMtech 1200 - +.5 Cooldown -.15 Beam Duration
Manufactured by RAMTech Industries on New Kyoto

Sunglow - +.15 Beam Duration -.5 Cooldown
Manufactured by Blackwell Heavy Industries on Outreach

Sunglow Type 2 - +.5 Cooldown -1.5 Heat
Manufactured by Detroit Consolidated Mechworks on Detroit
Manufactured by Sterope Defense Industries on Sterope

Wu Heavy - +1.5 Heat -1 Cooldown
Manufactured by Wu Industries on Capricorn III

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 07 March 2014 - 03:31 PM, said:

You are playing with the numbers by saying +1 heat, -2 cooldown, so what's the difference? Just say -10% spread, -10% RoF.


It gives options, and what we are trying to do is figure out how to balance the FLD with other mechanics. UACs just need to work the same, but allow accelerated firing rates with the chance of jamming.

edited it.

Also there is alot of medium laser... may need to condense this...

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Medium_Laser

Edited by Varent, 07 March 2014 - 04:26 PM.

[wanderer]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 March 2014 - 07:26 AM, said:

Tach Ops is advanced rules, and I do not have the tome. But the TechMan is specific for GroPo level games. Can ou give me a Pict of the rule from TacOps? I really would like to see it. I'm interested in how much damage each shell is doing in that scenario.

Check your PM's. I even added in the rapid-fire notes on light/standard AC's.

Mcgral18, on 07 March 2014 - 08:47 AM, said:

As for the Pontiac...I thought it was a 100 shot AC? More than 2 shots would be nice....maybe 20? Hitreg should be able to handle that. I want the option for excessive dakka.

The Pontiac 100 is a 100mm round AC, though it's probably delivering something along the lines of a 9/10-round burst, if you compare it to the 180mm 5-burst mount on the Hunchback.

[Varent]

I must say compiling this list is making me realize something very interesting.

When community warfare comes around, depending on how close you have to be to the distributor of a weapon to gain access to it.... Lasers are going to be at a major advantage just for the pure sake of the producers being EVERYWHERE in comparison to the ac. Havent checked missles yet but medium laser producers along out number even the largest amount of ac20 producers like... 10 to 1....

[Solis Obscuri]

Sephlock, on 23 February 2014 - 03:35 PM, said:

Didn't they say something to the effect that they didn't want to turn autocannons into DOT weapons like lasers?

More to the point, they decided to turn lasers into DoT weapons because lightweight hitscan high damage/weight weapons that can be mass-fired with perfect pinpoint convergence might *gasp* somehow be unbalanced if they also delivered instant damage. Meanwhile, the point of the heavier weapons in BT (LRM/.MRM racks excepted) has always been a superior ability to concentrate damage in one spot, so that was retained.

[Varent]

BT has too many medium lasers. I didnt fully put it in proper format this time but you get the idea.

Aberdovey Mk II - +.15 Beam Duration, Double HP
Kressly Warworks on Epsilon Eridani

Allied Technologies 2 - Half HP, -.5 Heat
New Age Systems Incorporated on Nirasaki

Argra 1L - +.5 Cooldown -.15 beam duration
New Samarkand Armor Works On New Samarkand
Diplan 'Mechyards On Aix-la-Chapelle
Defiance Motors on Luthien

Blankenburg – Double HP, 240-480 Range
Blankenburg Technologies on Terra

Bowie Electronics - Half HP, +.5 Heat, -.25 Beam Duration
Bowie Industries on Terra

Ceres Arms - Double HP, 240-480 Range
Ceres Metals Industries on Capella
Ceres Metals Industries on St. Ives

ChisComp 38 - Half HP, +.5 Heat, -.25 Beam Duration
Achernar BattleMechs on New Avalon

ChisComp 39 – Double HP, +1 Heat, +1 CD, -.25 Beam Duration
Achernar BattleMechs on New Avalon

Defiance B3M - +1 Heat -.25 Beam Duration
Coventry Metal Works on Coventry
Defiance Industries on Furillo
Defiance Industries on Hesperus II
Red Devil Industries on Pandora
J.B. BattleMechs Incorporated on Storfors

Diplan M3 - Double HP, +1 Heat, +1 CD, -.25 Beam Duration
Defiance Motors on Luthien
Diplass Optimax - Basic Medium Laser
Diplass Technologies on Apollo

Diverse Optics Type 2 – Range 240-480 -.15 Beam Duration
Hellespont Industrials on Corey
Lushann Industrials Limited on Lushann
Concordat Telecom and TransStellar on New Vandenburg
Hellespont 'Mech Works on Sian
Sterope Defense Industries on Sterope

Diverse Optics Type 14 - Half HP +.5 CD 300-600 Range
Trellshire Heavy Industries on Chahar

Diverse Optics Type 18 +.25 Beam Duration -1 Heat
Alphard Marian Arms Incorporated
Chahar Trellshire Heavy Industries
Irian Diverse Optics Incorporated
Sterope Sterope Defense Industries

Diverse Optics Type 20 - Half HP -.5 CD 240-480 Range
Kessel Diverse Optics Incorporated

Firefly Type II - Half HP -.5 CD 240-480 Range
Apollo Roe Weapon Systems

Firmir Standard –Half HP +.5 CD 300-600 Range
Betelgeuse Firmir Weaponry

Harmon Starclass +1 CD +1 Heat, -.25 Beam Duration, 300-600 Range
Son Hoa StarCorp Industries

Hellion B-II 240-480 Range -1 Heat
Andurien Free Worlds Defense Industries
Westover Free Worlds Defense Industries

Hellion Spitfire 240-480 +.5 Heat, -.25 Beam Duration
Terra Ford Military Limited

Hellion-V 240-480 Range Double Hit Points.
Andurien Bergan Industries
Andurien Brooks, Inc.
Irian Irian BattleMechs Unlimited
Kalidasa Kali Yama Weapons Industries Incorporated
Kendall Brooks, Inc.
Shiro III Grumman Amalgamated
Trellisane Gutierrez Aerospace

Intek 300-600 range +.5 heat
Asuncion Kallon Industries
Arc-Royal TharHes Industries
New Syrtis Johnston Industries
Terra Leopard Armor

Irian Weapons Works Super 6 240-480, -.15 Beam duration, Double HP, +.5 Heat
Irian Irian BattleMechs Unlimited
Kendall Kali Yama - Alphard Trading Corporation

Kajuka Type 2 Bright Blossom 300-600 Range, +.25 Beam Duration, -.5 Heat
Sian Saroyan Special Projects

Krieger 300-600 range, +.15 Beam Duration
Orestes Odin Manufacturing
Terra Pandora 'Mech Works

Krupp Model 2 - +.5 Cooldown -.15 beam duration
Mars Krupp Stellar Technologies Inc.

Magna Mk II 300-600 Range, +1 Heat, double Hit Points
Kalidasa Kali Yama Weapons Industries Incorporated
Lopez Magna
Mars General Mechanics
New Valencia General Motors
Shiro III Irian BattleMechs Unlimited
Stewart Corean Enterprises
Twycross Trellshire Heavy Industries

Martell - Basic medium Laser, no changes.
Alshain Bergan Industries
Corey Hollis Incorporated
Delavan Dynamico Limited
Fletcher Flame Tech
El Dorado General Motors
Pinard Pinard Protectorates Limited
Terra Skobel MechWorks
Stewart Corean Enterprises
Victoria Shengli Arms
Wallis Ronin Incorporated

Martell Model 5 - +1 Heat -.25 Beam Duration
Canopus IV Majesty Metals and Manufacturing

Maxell - Range 240-480 -.15 Beam Duration
Chukchi III Maxell Metals Incorporated

Maxell TR - +.25 Beam Duration -1 Heat
Terra Bowie Industries

Maxell-UD6 - +1 CD +1 Heat, -.25 Beam Duration, 300-600 Range
Terra Caletra Fighters

Omicron 950 - 240-480 Range -1 Heat
Terra Aldis Industries

Omicron 3000 – Double HP, 240-480 Range, +1CD, -.15 Beam Duration.
Campbelton Fusigon Heavy Weaponry
Illiushin Vandenberg Mechanized Industries

Omicron 4000 - 240-480 +.5 Heat, -.25 Beam Duration
Campbelton Fusigon Heavy Weaponry

OMI HighBurn - 240-480 Range Double Hit Points.
New Earth New Earth Trading Company

Photech 806c - 300-600 range +.5 heat
New Avalon Corean Enterprises

Phototech 806c - 240-480, -.15 Beam duration, Double HP, +.5 Heat
Terra StarCorps Industries

RAMTech 800 - 300-600 Range, +.25 Beam Duration, -.5 Heat
New Kyoto RAMTech

Rassal Blue-Beam - Beam Duration .25, 210-420 Range, +2CD, +2Heat, Half Hit Points
Arcturus Arcturan Arms

Sapphire - Double HP, 240-480 Range, +1CD, -.15 Beam Duration.
Terra Grumman Industries

Starflash - Beam Duration .25, 210-420 Range, +2CD, +2Heat, Half Hit Points
Terra Leopard Armor
Terra Skobel MechWorks

Victory 23R- 300-600 Range, +1 Heat, double Hit Points
Marduk Victory - (Norse BattleMech Works)

Edited for balance, 2 super low Beam duration added, rare items. Many draw backs.

Edited by Varent, 08 March 2014 - 08:19 AM.