404 replies to this topic

[Trauglodyte]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 25 February 2014 - 06:05 AM, said:

Yeah, honestly at the point where I don't care about the bug part of splash damage. It just doesn't effect enough of a population of mechs for me to think it's a terrible thing. I would much rather go back to the days of overpowered SRM's, instead of the PPC/AC meta we have now. It was way blown out of proportion at the time, all because Commandos hitboxes were the way they were.

Well, it was blown out of proportion for a reason. One or two SRM racks wasn't an issue. But, it was the Awesome SRM boat, the Splatcats, etc. I can remember obliterating Commandos and Jenners in my AWS-8R cause I was rocking 4x SRM6 racks. One pull of the trigger and they were done. I can also remember how much pain that I took from other splatmechs in my Awesomes because the torsos were so big that the splash just resonated across all three. The combination of the Atlas 20 and SRM6x3 was devestating way behond what it should have been.

Deathlike, on 25 February 2014 - 07:38 AM, said:

Have you guys tried chainfiring SRMs? The results are a stark contrast in effectiveness over group firing them.

I've pretty much given up on SRMs. If I have to ripple fire,it means that I'm spending too much time pointing at the enemy taking incoming fire in locations that I'd much rather protect. It's possible with 3 racks, at most, due to that being essentially the duration of a Md Lasers (0 + 0.5 + 0.5 = 1s total). But, I'd hate to run around in like a SRMtaro trying to ripple everything.

[stjobe]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 25 February 2014 - 06:05 AM, said:

Yeah, honestly at the point where I don't care about the bug part of splash damage. It just doesn't effect enough of a population of mechs for me to think it's a terrible thing.

I would much rather go back to the days of overpowered SRM's, instead of the PPC/AC meta we have now.

It was way blown out of proportion at the time, all because Commandos hitboxes were the way they were.

Not a light 'mech pilot then, I take it?

There can never be balance if a weapon does random amounts of damage depending on what it hits and how it hits it. It was a bad, bad bug and AFAIK it's still not fixed. The only thing they need to do to make it re-appear is to increase the splash radius.

Furthermore, the missile code is bugged in several other ways; not the least in that if they do set splash to zero, missiles have a tendency to go to the CT - so missile flight path code is somehow connected to the splash radius. It boggles the mind...

AFAIK no work has been done on the missile code since that hotfix apart from the aforementioned further shrinking of the splash radius to 1 (or if it was 5) cm. Nothing at all.

So next time you are angry that SRM hit reg is bad, feel free to write the devs at support@mwomercs.com and ask them why they have let the missile code go unrevised for almost a year with those huge, glaring bugs still in it.

I mean, they can't blame it on the UI2.0 bottleneck any more, nor on working towards release.

Quote

THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THIS MESSAGE:
This is a TEMPORARY fix to quell the damage done by missiles at this time. We are fully investigating the damage model AND focusing on the grouping of missiles and will update as soon as we can on how any changes will be managed/implemented.

- Paul Inouye, Mar 21 2013 11:46 PM

Edited by stjobe, 25 February 2014 - 11:43 AM.

[Remarius]

OneEyed Jack, on 23 February 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:

I think "able to handle" might be a bit of a stretch. SRMs, anyone?


Maybe it's my age, but I don't remember it that way. As I recall, hit registration was actually pretty darn good. You just couldn't rely at all on the visual impact of the shot, since you were seeing something different than the server was. Hitting at all on a moving target involved some quick calculation and no small amount of guesswork, but when you hit (reticle flashed) it did damage... except maybe on the Raven, but that was another issue.

Might depend where you are. Playing in the UK I went on a gleeful killing spree the day after HSR came in as my hit rate and damage mysteriously soared through the roof. Before that I'd had to stick to lasers and used a tag to locate the target. Best change to the game since early beta for me. Still remember queries about why my Cicada 3M was perma running a tag despite no LRM's being in play.

[Trauglodyte]

And they've never revisted it, have they? Stills 0.5cm splash and the same 2.0 damage with the same bad HSR.

[stjobe]

Trauglodyte, on 25 February 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

And they've never revisted it, have they? Stills 0.5cm splash and the same 2.0 damage with the same bad HSR.

They have adjusted things twice, to my knowledge: Once to set the splash down to the 1-5cm it is now from the 1.8m (LRM) and 1.3m (SRM) the hotfix set it to, and once to actually buff SRM damage to 2.0 from the 1.5 the hotfix set it to.

AFAIK they haven't touched the actual code since last March.

Edit: As an additional aside, one might wonder why someone thought it would be a good idea in the first place to have a splash radius of 4.0m (8.0m diameter) when the smallest 'mech at the time barely pushed 9m tall...

Edited by stjobe, 25 February 2014 - 12:12 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

stjobe, on 25 February 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

Not a light 'mech pilot then, I take it?

There can never be balance if a weapon does random amounts of damage depending on what it hits and how it hits it. It was a bad, bad bug and AFAIK it's still not fixed. The only thing they need to do to make it re-appear is to increase the splash radius.

Furthermore, the missile code is bugged in several other ways; not the least in that if they do set splash to zero, missiles have a tendency to go to the CT - so missile flight path code is somehow connected to the splash radius. It boggles the mind...

AFAIK no work has been done on the missile code since that hotfix apart from the aforementioned further shrinking of the splash radius to 1 (or if it was 5) cm. Nothing at all.

So next time you are angry that SRM hit reg is bad, feel free to write the devs at support@mwomercs.com and ask them why they have let the missile code go unrevised for almost a year with those huge, glaring bugs still in it.

I mean, they can't blame it on the UI2.0 bottleneck any more, nor on working towards release.

- Paul Inouye, Mar 21 2013 11:46 PM

Actually only mech class I don't have a mastered mech in is Heavies.

And I'm just at a point where light's are so far out of what they were supposed to be, I'm willing to sacrifice them to get back to the fun game we used to have.

Problem is, you guys keep acting like PGI can fix it.

They can't.

It's a year later.

They can't fix it.

So it's a choice, extra damaging SRM's, or normal damaging SRM's with hit registration problems?

I'll take the extra damaging version so we can do SOMETHING to stem the meta.

[Sephlock]

[stjobe]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 25 February 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

I'm just at a point where light's are so far out of what they were supposed to be

I reject that premise.

Lights are NOT the problem in MWO, and putting them on the chopping block as a sacrificial lamb to the meta isn't going to help any.

If you want to help against the meta, argue for the removal of instant-damage pin-point accurate alpha strikes. Pick a form or forms you like (burst-fire ACs and beam duration PPCs, Target Computer Load, Cone of Fire, etc, there's plenty suggestions to choose from) and argue for them.

But to go from "SRMs are underpowered" to "make SRMs so overpowered¹ nobody would want to field a Light 'mech anymore" is NOT the solution here.

Did you know that Light 'mechs were almost down to 10% at one point? Do we really need to discourage their use further?

¹19 damage per missile on a triple-SRM-6 'mech is 342 damage; 4 points more than the max armour a Centurion can carry, and just 9 points short of the total max armour plus internal structure of a Jenner. Do you really want that kind of stupid back in the game?

[Nicholas Carlyle]

stjobe, on 25 February 2014 - 03:46 PM, said:

I reject that premise.

Lights are NOT the problem in MWO, and putting them on the chopping block as a sacrificial lamb to the meta isn't going to help any.

If you want to help against the meta, argue for the removal of instant-damage pin-point accurate alpha strikes. Pick a form or forms you like (burst-fire ACs and beam duration PPCs, Target Computer Load, Cone of Fire, etc, there's plenty suggestions to choose from) and argue for them.

But to go from "SRMs are underpowered" to "make SRMs so overpowered¹ nobody would want to field a Light 'mech anymore" is NOT the solution here.

Did you know that Light 'mechs were almost down to 10% at one point? Do we really need to discourage their use further?

¹19 damage per missile on a triple-SRM-6 'mech is 342 damage; 4 points more than the max armour a Centurion can carry, and just 9 points short of the total max armour plus internal structure of a Jenner. Do you really want that kind of stupid back in the game?

I don't care StJobe.

I'm being a realist.

PGI is not getting rid of the pinpoint meta.

So, yup, sacrifice the lights.

Don't care.

We don't have real scouting or dynamic objectives which should've been the bread and butter of lights. So **** em.

I sure as hell don't remember hating SRM's nearly as much as I hate what we have now.

At least with SRM's there is the whole "They don't shoot beyond 270m" thing. I mean sure a Splatcat was super scary to my Centurion up close.

But I could strip his ears from outside his range.

Yup, **** lights.

Edit: Sorry by the way, I know you love your Commando's, blame PGI. They've shown no indication of knowing how to fix SRM's, so might as well break them back to being useful.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 25 February 2014 - 04:17 PM.

[stjobe]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 25 February 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

I don't care StJobe.

I'm being a realist.

No, you're being a pessimist. The words "I don't care" should be your clue that it's time for a break for you.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 25 February 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

PGI is not getting rid of the pinpoint meta.

They're not going to re-enable a worked-around bug either, sacrificing a whole weight class (or more) in the bargain. That would be commercial suicide.

As for blaming PGI, I do. For a lot of things. But I can't help but to blame you too for a suggestion that would make the game worse - and re-enabling splash would definitely make the game worse, and not only for Lights.

The missile code is common to LRMs, SRMs, and Streaks, so say hello to LRMageddon III (or would that be IV or even V? Can't remember, it's been so many...) in conjuction with SRMageddon II.

They would have to hotfix it out two days later.

It's just not a solution.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

stjobe, on 25 February 2014 - 04:26 PM, said:

No, you're being a pessimist. The words "I don't care" should be your clue that it's time for a break for you.


They're not going to re-enable a worked-around bug either, sacrificing a whole weight class (or more) in the bargain. That would be commercial suicide.

As for blaming PGI, I do. For a lot of things. But I can't help but to blame you too for a suggestion that would make the game worse - and re-enabling splash would definitely make the game worse, and not only for Lights.

The missile code is common to LRMs, SRMs, and Streaks, so say hello to LRMageddon III (or would that be IV or even V? Can't remember, it's been so many...) in conjuction with SRMageddon II.

They would have to hotfix it out two days later.

It's just not a solution.

No, pessimist would be "Paul doesn't want to fix SRM's because he doesn't like missiles", realist is "Paul doesn't know how to fix SRM's" this is evidenced by a full year of them being broken.

I'm just being logical at this point. Instead of sitting here with my fingers crossed, I'm trying to find real ways to get this game back to some semblence of fun.

And actually, they've lowered the splash damage independently on LRM's and SRM's. So they could re-enable it on SRM's without messing up LRM's.

If it buffs Streaks a bit? No biggie, once again, only mechs that will care is light mechs.

So screw em.

Do you have some sort of magic way to fix SRM's by the way StJobe? So far my idea is the only one that would work in practice.

[stjobe]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 25 February 2014 - 04:32 PM, said:

Do you have some sort of magic way to fix SRM's by the way StJobe?

Up damage to 2.5, increase speed, tighten spread.
The increase in damage and accuracy will cover up the borked hit registration until they come to their senses and start working on it.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 25 February 2014 - 04:32 PM, said:

So far my idea is the only one that would work in practice.

Sure, if you don't mind removing a quarter of your game, but that's not really a good definition of "would work" now is it?

Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.

[Mystere]

stjobe, on 25 February 2014 - 03:46 PM, said:

Did you know that Light 'mechs were almost down to 10% at one point? Do we really need to discourage their use further?

Have you noticed that many of the recent "balance" "suggestions" screwed lights (e.g. JJ nerfs, mobility nerfs, and now SRM buffs)?

I have.

Edited by Mystere, 25 February 2014 - 04:48 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

stjobe, on 25 February 2014 - 04:43 PM, said:

Up damage to 2.5, increase speed, tighten spread.
The increase in damage and accuracy will cover up the borked hit registration until they come to their senses and start working on it.


Sure, if you don't mind removing a quarter of your game, but that's not really a good definition of "would work" now is it?

Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.

It wouldn't remove "a quarter of the game". Now who is being a pessimist? Lights existed and were used very well before the fix. I don't even really remember lights complaining about SRM's. It was always Streaks.

If no one had ever found that splash bug, i'd be more inclined to say there would be less light pilots because mediums would be more usable. Not because of the SRM splash damage.

And your fix does not fix the problem at all.

The moment you alpha those "tighter, higher damaging, faster" SRM's and the hit doesn't register, leading to you dying...you'll stop using them just like you do now.

Unless SRMs are reliable, they are unusable. Its the same reason almost no one uses LRM's.

[Deathlike]

Trauglodyte, on 25 February 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

And they've never revisted it, have they? Stills 0.5cm splash and the same 2.0 damage with the same bad HSR.

"Temporary" changes have a tendency to become "permanent" in this game...

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Deathlike, on 25 February 2014 - 05:02 PM, said:

"Temporary" changes have a tendency to become "permanent" in this game...

Temporary means permanent. PGI has a special Canuck version of the dictionary.

[Zordicron]

The mostly silly banter about SRM's is pretty far off topic. Lets move back towards autocannons shall we?

[Deathsani]

I would love to talk more about specifics or my opinions of ideas, but without a response from the dev's I don't know where to start. We can keep making guesses though.

I would like a 3-round burst like an m16 for each ac except for ac2's, maybe with an automated spread. It would work sort of like the remote guns on some helicopter canons.

Edited by Deathsani, 26 February 2014 - 01:39 PM.

[Varent]

Deathsani, on 26 February 2014 - 01:38 PM, said:

I would love to talk more about specifics or my opinions of ideas, but without a response from the dev's I don't know where to start. We can keep making guesses though.

I would like a 3-round burst like an m16 for each ac except for ac2's, maybe with an automated spread. It would work sort of like the remote guns on some helicopter canons.

How about both? Put out different models of ac. Have some of them be a single shot and some of them be burst. YOu could play with cooldown, heat, durability, crit rate and many different cycle and fire times as well as jam chance to balance them nicely.

[Sephlock]

Varent, on 26 February 2014 - 03:21 PM, said:

How about both? Put out different models of ac. Have some of them be a single shot and some of them be burst. YOu could play with cooldown, heat, durability, crit rate and many different cycle and fire times as well as jam chance to balance them nicely.

They said they'd like to do this at some point.