198 replies to this topic

[Nik Van Rhijn]

The "fluff" (and assumptions) have been that all torso mounted weapons are in articulated "turrets" that allow some movement for convergence on the indcated target. Irrespecive of the individual weapons accuracy it is totally depended on the electro mechanical/hydraulic actuators as to how quickly and accurately the mechs computer/targeting system can bring them to bear on the target the mechwarrior has designated. In many ways it is similar to the way a Gunnery Officer in an old style battleship "aimed" the ships main battery.
A mech is not a rifle and you are not "aiming" it in the same way. This insistance on the part of many that it is and by trying to introduce some "reality" into the system, you are impugning their manhood etc along with the insistance that "I should hit what I aim at" is ludicrous.
It will take considersble skill to hit the target you indicate with both mechs moving, especially if you are not using hitscan pixel perfect accuracy lasers.
I do have some idea of what it takes to use a rifle - besides being a "TT nerd" I spent nearly 20 years shooting customised rifles at 1K & over in RL.

Edited by Nik Van Rhijn, 21 January 2012 - 12:56 PM.

[Azantia]

I really think the community is looking at this the wrong way. The devs have already said that not all the canon lore / TT rules will translate well into a computer simulation like Mechwarrior Online, I think that is the right approach. That being said, I think the overall discussion is a good one, but the focus of the conversations is a bit off. To me, lasers would have a greater recycle time than an Autocannon, even a single shot one. If we are going to quote canon and TT lore and rules, lets get it right, and correctly define Lasers and Autocannons
Being a Feddie...lets start with Autocannons. Going to Sarna.net here.
An Autocannon is a type of rapid-firing, auto-loading direct-fire ballistic weapon, firing HEAP (High-Explosive Armor-Piercing) or kinetic rounds at targets in bursts. It is, basically, a giant "machine gun" that fires predominantly cased explosive shells though models firing saboted high velocity kinetic energy penetrators or caseless ordnance do exist. Among the earliest tank/BattleMech scale weaponry produced, autocannons produce far less heat than energy weapons, but are considerably bulkier and are dependent upon limited stores of ammunition.
Autocannons range in caliber from 30mm up to 203mm and are loosely grouped according to their damage vs armor.[1] The exact same caliber of shell fired in a 100 shot burst to do 20 damage will have a shorter effective range than when fired in a 10 shot burst to do 2 damage due to recoil and other factors. Autocannon are grouped into the following loose damage classes: AC/2, AC/5, AC/10, AC20.
Beyond the "standard" models, variants include the shotgun-like LBX, quick-firing Ultra and the gatling-type Rotary. Light-weight variants and capital ship scale models also exist. The experimental Hypervelocity Autocannon has also entered limited production.[2][3]

Holy crap dude, I don’t know what that means?!
Basically, it means the Devs can start by including different types of Autocannons by rating. Meaning An Autocannon/5 could be done in say…3 ways.

Single shot Autocannon/5 = 5 Damage, Longer range than say, a 3 or 5 round burst, refer to auto cannon 100 round burst vs. 10 round burst above, with a decent recycle time.

3 Round Burst Autocannon/5 = fires a quick burst of 3 rounds, smaller caliber than above, same overall damage from 3 shots, less range, more spread, but faster recycle time than single shot one. Also more violent for the MechWarrior on the receiving end.

5 Round Burst Auto cannon/5 = fires a very fast 5 round burst, smallest caliber, shortest range (due to highest spread), but fastest recycle time and most violent jarring.

Ultra Autocannons would obviously recycle faster, hence the quick firing part.
Light Autocannons have less range/accuracy
Hyper Velocity Auto cannons = More range (kinda moot point, its experimental)
LBX auto cannons would be the most difficult to balance I think, mainly due to the fact that you would need to decide how much damage each individual “slug” causes in the LBX spread.
Rotary AC are not developed until 3060, so we wont concern ourselves with them for now.
That would be the most accurate representation of “true” TT/canon lore.

On to Lasers :
Laser stands for "Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation", or a device that focuses an amplified beam of light on a small surface area. Lasers are popular weapons due to their low cost compared to other energy weapons and because they do not rely on ammunition, which simplifies logistics. Laser rifles are one of the most effective weapons infantry units have when fighting vehicles or 'Mechs.

Standard lasers cause damage by firing an intense beam of light at a target, flooding concentrated energy in the form of heat, which can melt material and overwhelm heat-sensitive electronics. The various Clan militaries do not use standard lasers, having phased them out in favor of more advanced laser types. All standard lasers are typically grouped into three broad classes based on their damage potential:
Small Laser
Medium Laser
Large Laser

Now anyone who knows anything about true Battletech lore understand that if we were to be completely technical, there are different manufacturers of each laser, each known for something, an increase in range, damage, better heat efficiency etc…
For simplicity these things are not included in the TT version of battletech, but for a simulation such as MechWarrior Online I believe you could do a lot to add depth by providing different types/manufacturers of laser systems.

Is my medium laser an Intek or a Martell? Is it a Maxwell or a Starflash II? You could easily pick 2 to 3 of the most popular designs and have one deal a bit of extra damage (for extra heat) one have a slice more range, and one have either less heat build up or better recycle time.
As for the argument of multiple beams hitting near the same location or the same location and the damage they cause, I will refer to : Binary Laser Cannon, aka the Blazer cannon, which I hope they include in MWO.

Binary Laser Cannon
Nicknamed the Blazer, the Binary Laser Cannon is widely considered a dead-end technology. Taking two large laser cores and fusing them together, the Blazer was designed to fire both cores at the same time, increasing damage penetration. In practice, damage yield proved low compared to the lasers firing separately, and the high heat generated by the Blazer severely taxed available heat sink technology of the time.
While research on the Blazer started in the Lyran Commonwealth in 2801, actual prototype models first showed up in the Free Worlds League in 2812. With the re-introduction of double heat sinks, the Blazer cannon is now a viable weapon

You, the community can decide what that means. To me, I believe that it means that multiple beams fired at the same exact time, in the same exact space would yield less damage than when fired separately, to further support my point of view, I reference the following :

Pulse lasers differ from traditional laser weaponry, in that instead of firing one powerful beam, they maintain several laser beams fired off in quick succession. While offering an overall increased rate of fire, the heat output also increases accordingly. Pulse lasers increase damage because they allow vaporized armor to dissipate from the location of damage. This allows subsequent pulses to reach the target area without being diffused by the vapor.

Just my point of view.
What is your take? /discuss
p.s. sorry for the wall of text, but you know you love it.

Edited by Azantia, 28 January 2012 - 06:29 PM.

[Gunmage]

Azantia, on 28 January 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

Just my point of view.
What is your take? /discuss
p.s. sorry for the wall of text, but you know you love it.

My take on your post... i think it's /thread =)
Also,

Nik Van Rhijn, on 21 January 2012 - 12:55 PM, said:

... if you are not using hitscan pixel perfect accuracy lasers.

And why not? You aren't aiming all those lasers (and i'm thinking Nova here) MANUALLY. You indicate a point, and the targeting system directs all those "mini-turrets" there. And their firing arcs are not that big, so that won't be a factor unless you are switching to a target 180 degrees away from your last one. Spread comes from mech's positioning instability due to recoil, enemy fire hitting, and so on.
Mech is not a rifle, but it's not a battleship, either. And laser firing at a target 400 meters away is not a 400mm cannon firing at a ship 2 kilometers far. Ballistic weapons and missiles are other story, but with the lasers the "i can hit what i can see" rule is pretty much right with the addition of "if it's in range".

[Slyck]

Hey Azantia, I was trying to bring up just that idea over here.

[Azantia]

@ slyck - Word brother...Hey Paul, CAN YOU HEAR US?!
Well I guess it would be can you SEE us....or CAN YOU READ THIS?
Now its can you READ?

oh jeez, trolling inc......thats right i said it, i dont think Paul can read........prove me wrong Paul, prove me wrong.

[sheradin]

Kurios, on 15 November 2011 - 10:34 PM, said:

Thats a broken assumption you know.... Your talking about 4 different weapon systems. Mounted at 4 separate points. Each one has to traverse to the target, ect, ect... especially as your point blank mark isnt even going to be at the same "angle..." So you got a computer system that attempts to put the guns onto your target curser. Though, I guess if you really think you are the ****, you could try to aim 4 guns yourself. But I think the computer ~just~ might do a better job then you at it. And even it isnt perfect. Ill think about drawing you diagrams and such if you think that im just making some bullshit up. But feel free to look at sterographic vision, Its a similiar problem... But in reverse. ( ie, you arnt trying to aim the cameras. Just make a 3d image with them. ). So yah. They actually are going to spread. At least a little. Theres alot of movement going on on those weapons mounts. it isnt like your rifle. (which, by the way, doesnt always shoot where the sight points, but thats another discussion. If you really care to know about that, go read rifle reviews in a shooting mag. They talk about scatter to. and thats RL. )

So some points:
Unstable firing platform.
Weapons arnt perfect to began with
Weapons dont have same Point of View on target.
A computer aims. Not you. (kinda)

plus you have to factor in the fact that more than likely your target is moving so the odds of 4 lasers strike same spot constantly not high but I would still go with the 4 med lasers for 2 reasons no ammo and higher avg of hitting ratio even if damge does drop some what

[sheradin]

Yeach, on 18 November 2011 - 05:10 PM, said:

I wouldn't be too opposed to this.

Factor 80% hitting where they converge and 20% spread to other areas. (example)
Use a 0.5 second limit threshold if they used chain-fire (macro) to bypass this route.
That is if you fired faster than the threshold it would still amount to the 80/20 spread.

your neglecting to facter in the fact that the engeeners that design the targeting systems for the mach would have probly factor in group firing of engery weapons so that in stead of all 4 hitting same spot they probly would hitin a diamond pattern space out far enough that the thermal sphere created from the hit would overlap inside the dimanond slaging the aditonal armor thus achiveing the same affect as a ac 20 hit with out the the kintic engery discharge that would rock the the enemy mech throwing off thier aim

[Zervziel]

Omigir, on 21 January 2012 - 04:26 AM, said:

Well thats fine, why dont you let people love the game and the BTU for what it is. It is a 'nerd' game. So is eve, eve is a very indepth and complicated world and its been around since MW4. MW4 died, Eve did not. So how about you stop trying to 'change' the game to make it 'playable'. Otherwise we will all be playing MechAssault online. <- perefect example of 'changing the game to make it playble.'

So basically just cater to the 'nerds' and to hell with everyone else right?

I love the fact you use EVE Online a game that's subscription based and compared it to a game that you paid once for. Guess what MW4 wasn't a MMO whos successf was determined by how long it could keep paying customers. Plus FASA crashing and burning didn't help.

Back to EVE, it is not a mech simulator. It is a game dominated by dragging and clicking, watching a ship ponderously turn after clicking someplace to go, and the only real skill needed for that game is number crunching. Basically what people seem hellbent on turning MWO into.

I never said I wanted MWO to be anything like MechAssault and there are plenty of ways to change the game without it becoming such. No need to act like change is some kind of bogeyman. Without change the game will stagnate.


Also one last thing to point out. As boring as EVE is, it at least has something for people who just want to fly about in their ships to do. MWO is all multiplayer matches, all the time.

[Omigir]

: \

Here I thought we already solved this problem...

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Omigir - you should know by now the problem is never solved. Each time I feel like facepalming I look at the results of the poll at the top. You just wouldn't belive the results from some of the posts. Anyway were all just blowing smoke while waiting for PGI to drip feed more info. Nearly Wednesday again

[Omigir]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 30 January 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

Omigir - you should know by now the problem is never solved. Each time I feel like facepalming I look at the results of the poll at the top. You just wouldn't belive the results from some of the posts. Anyway were all just blowing smoke while waiting for PGI to drip feed more info. Nearly Wednesday again

Yeah, that kind of smoke is illegal in the U.S. and I can get kicked out the Marines for it. *shrugs* XD

licking Salamanders how ever...

[SilentObserver]

Zervziel, on 20 January 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

Cone of Fire? Really? How about we just put all the weapons on one big action bar at the bottom and press them and then wait for the weapon to fire. You can only fire energy weapons if you have enough "charge" as depicted by the blue bar underneath your red overall health bar at the top lrft. Stop trying to take any semblance of personal skill out of the game. Some people can actually aim and would like the ability to do so without getting boned over by artificial device like cone of fire. What is wrong with people being able to aim? I don't see what's wrong with weapons converging and why people say it should hit all over the side of the mech instead of what you wanted to hit. Canon in this case should be thrown out the window, because quite frankly gameplay should trump canon. I'd rather have a game that bent canon in places to increase playability rather than have a "canon" game that is prevents me from having any fun.

Zervziel have you ever fired a real weapon? Even from a fixed firing platform no one is putting all thier shots in the bullsey at 200m. And mobile platforms (apache - c-130) are even worse. The point is you ability to put your mouse cursor over a certain part of a 2d screen is WAY easier than it is to aim an actual weapon. So those of use who don't want pixel perfect accuracy simply want the game to be more realistic. Also pixel perfect accuracy brings on its own load of problems (legging, headshots) that don't really need to be part of the game.

Having some drift off the aiming reticle will not ruin the game for most. Pixel perfect is easy mode.

Yeach, on 21 January 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

Or not to combine Level 1 and Level 2 tech. Ie letting Mechs starts off with 10 DHS instead of 10 SHS which was probably why the heatscale was so forgiving in the previous Mechwarrior games. 4 medium lasers (12 heat) is nothing on a Mech with 10 double heatsinks (-20 heat) standard.

That -20 standard was the biggest problem with double heatsinks. I believe it broke the TT game. DH where not a choice they where required.

Omigir, on 30 January 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

: \

Here I thought we already solved this problem...

No problems will ever be solved because all of us have a vision of the perfect Mechwarrior game. And while some parts may overlap in a lot of ways they don't. So we will keep arguing about how we would like to see it done until PGI opens the beta so we can see how they did it.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

And then no doubt a lot of people will still moan that this or that is wrong.While the rest of us have fun trying to find "features" or break it

[FunkyFritter]

Omigir, on 07 April 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:

: \

Here I thought we already solved this problem...

Seriously, give it a rest already.

[Cebi]

FunkyFritter, on 07 April 2013 - 04:00 AM, said:

Seriously, give it a rest already.

Posted 30 January 2012

...

[Satan n stuff]

4 medium lasers with the required heat sinks to fire them weigh a lot more than an AC/20 with ammo, and the lasers will not pinpoint a single location unless the target is standing still.

[ElliottTarson]

I loled. Gj Funky.

[Ph30nix]

guardiandashi, on 15 November 2011 - 10:16 PM, said:

the issue is game balance

if you can "alpha strike" or group fire and have a battery of lasers all hit in the same spot you run into ballance issues IE the lasers are "too good" in comparison to the heavy ac

look at it this way to have a heat neutral ac 20 with ~10-15 rounds of fire (a good number in the board game for 1 combat)
ac 20 14 tons 10 crits, ammo 3 tons 3 crits, heat 7 so add 7 HS to keep the heat of the ac neutralized, you are up to 24 tons 20 crits

if you go with 4 medium lasers 12 heat sinks the medium laser battery is effectively 16 tons 16 crits for the EXACT same range and damage if they are allowed to pinpoint aim and group fire

this is assuming the design is already using up the 10 "free" heatsinks that come with all fusion reactors

how is everyone forgetting the simple fact that lasers damage is spread out over time? and when two mechs are moving it cant very difficult ot keep 100% of that damage onto one location while those ballistics if they hit and area ALL damage goes to it.

stop trying to nerf other weapons to make you feel better about weapons you like. work to get those buffed if anythign which only ballistics that need help are machine gunes the rest are fine

[Scratx]

FFS, guys, this thread is from 2011.

IT IS ALMOST TWO BLOODY YEARS OLD.


GIVE IT A REST AND STOP NECRO'ING.