383 replies to this topic

[Kjudoon]

SuckyJack, on 27 February 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

The problems with LRMs not being a good weapon has nothing to do with AMS. Rather AMS is actually rare and poor option compared to many ways of protecting yourself from LRMs.

Horse Hockey. At my Elo level 5-8 enemy mechs packs AMS. How do I know? I count AMS streams when I scout by LRM. Fire a partial salvo low over where you think the enemy is and watch the AMS go berzerk. If AMS was balanced, only the mech fired upon would have it's AMS active instead of acting like a ship's phalax system (which BTW usually is out of ammo after 1-2 missiles and takes 15 minutes to reload in the real world... but we're not talking real world) on steroids. BTW, it also then wouldn't give away the position of the enemy main body helping with stealth.

The only place I don't see AMS much is in 12mans where those meta mechs are so tightly tuned and balanced they have no room for AMS "babyfat" since LRMs are almost unheard of, ECM covers them better and they know how to pilot and use cover in most cases.

Edited by Kjudoon, 27 February 2014 - 01:51 PM.

[Cimarb]

Abivard, on 26 February 2014 - 10:06 PM, said:

Did you know that while every mech can equip AMS, there are only 4 mech variants that can equip ECM?

I think you must not have known that or else you would not have posted what you posted.

Why are you even bringing ECM into this? It has not a thing to do with LRM speed or fast mechs avoiding LRM's, or even AMS which is something that will need adjustment with the LRM speed increase.

In Fact, about the only thing that isn't relative to this discussion is ECM!

Go beat that horse somewhere else please, The 'ECM is the root of all evil' diatribe is getting to be real old.

Why is it used so often as reason not to do any balance on anything else?

You keep saying that, as well as insulting people, but are wrong. Any system that completely and utterly makes another system useless has a huge impact on it. In fact, without TAG or NARC, an ECM mech would be 99.99% immune to all LRM attacks (with the 0.01% remainder being dumb fired lucky hits).

Imagine I could equip 1.5 tons of equipment to make myself immune to PPCs and ERPPCs - do you not think that would have a huge impact on the balance of those weapons?

If you had read my earlier posts, you would have saw that I am for a speed tweak to LRMs. It is just a much smaller balance issue than ECM is.

[Kjudoon]

Options to balance ECM.

1. TAG ignores all ECM at all ranges.
2. NARC buff (woot! now decrease the size and weight needed to equal that of ECM)
3. Easier to break it by damage.
4. Increase KO time for PPCs to 3-5 seconds per hit

If you made ECM less powerful, more weight, more slots, or whatever, I'd even be for allowing it being put on any mech, but it needs to be balanced. At least then we wreck the meta of certain mechs being viable only because it has ECM (I'm looking at you Spider, Commando and Cicada)

[Charons Little Helper]

Kjudoon, on 27 February 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

If you made ECM less powerful, more weight, more slots, or whatever, I'd even be for allowing it being put on any mech, but it needs to be balanced. At least then we wreck the meta of certain mechs being viable only because it has ECM (I'm looking at you Spider, Commando and Cicada)

I think that PGI has decided to not balance ECM itself - but try to balance it by only putting it on mediocre mechs. This wasn't their original plan - but I think it's why ECM spider & commando didn't get the increased engine cap.

And frankly - if it weren't for the ECM - the Atlas D would be my favorite - since I think the Atlas zombie is disturbingly fun.

If any new mechs do get ECM - I expect them to be of the crappy variants that people would otherwise level to elite and sell immediately.

The NARC buff should help some - but it's still 4 tons of equipment giving you an active way to cancel out 1.5 tons of passive protection.

Edited by Charons Little Helper, 27 February 2014 - 02:48 PM.

[Kjudoon]

Hence why the Narc needs to be smaller, lighter or have better effect like "Fire and Forget" or instant locks which even the buff won't grant. But yeah. I'm looking forward to seeing the NARC and speed buffs effect on the game before anything more gets done. So the next buffs can probably show themselves 3 months after these two go live.

[Navy Sixes]

Kjudoon, on 27 February 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

Options to balance ECM.

1. TAG ignores all ECM at all ranges.
2. NARC buff (woot! now decrease the size and weight needed to equal that of ECM)
3. Easier to break it by damage.
4. Increase KO time for PPCs to 3-5 seconds per hit

If you made ECM less powerful, more weight, more slots, or whatever, I'd even be for allowing it being put on any mech, but it needs to be balanced. At least then we wreck the meta of certain mechs being viable only because it has ECM (I'm looking at you Spider, Commando and Cicada)

Also, I think it would be a lot more fair if ECM only protected the mech carrying it. No more "ECM bubbles." You want to cloak the whole squad? Fine, all of you can field the otherwise substandard mechs that carry ECM.

Or do away with the ECM overlap feature. Have BAP and counter-ECM cut through ECM, no matter how many enemy units with ECM are in the vicinity.

[Khobai]

AMS isnt a problem for LRMs. AMS is a soft counter and fits right in with Reflective Armor, Reactive Armor, Blueshield, etc... The problem is none of these other equipment types are in the game and only LRMs currently get countered by equipment.

ECM on the other hand is a hard counter. It completely shuts down LRMs. ECM stealth absolutely needs to be removed for LRMs to ever be a viable weapon.

[Dirus Nigh]

SuckyJack, on 26 February 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:

The problem with LRMs is how MWO has handled Range Compression.

In the TT LRMs were a means to provide high amounts of damage at a range that is nearly unmatched. The only weapon that beat their range was the AC/2 which has a low Damage/Tonnage ratio. To be marked against this strength LRMs spread their damage, have a high cost in Tonnage and Crits as well as require ammo.

MWO comes along and doubles the max range of all Energy Weapons and triples the max range of all Ballistic Weapons. These weapons get linear damage decay past their TT Max Range to deal 0 damage past their MWO Max Range. The TT Max Range got renamed Optimum Range.

LRM Max Range has remained unchanged.

Where does this leave the game? We have long range engagements with ERLLs, ERPPCs, AC/5s and AC/2s that are tagging damage out at or beyond LRM range. LRM Boats, mechs that specialized themselves to unload their payload at extreme ranges and used that range as a safety net are instead forced into the danger zone where high damage direct fire weapons can actually hit them.

Extreme Range Sniping becomes a problem due to the nature of pin point damage, film grain is used to obscure mechs at longer range, fluffed as the lower resolution on the screens that display the world around us and make the game look a lot uglier.

What can be done? Many things. Ballistics can get only Double their max TT Range (or Optimum Range) with Linear Decay and Energy could get non-linear decay to make the weapons more different. Or you could double the LRM range and apply a 1% missile death rate per 2% past optimum range they travel so only 50% of the volley will land. Gives larger launchers like the LRM20 a purpose.

Then again I've found out time and time again that my views are "On An Island" and to be dismissed without consideration. So take it all with a grain of salt.

Actually LRM range has changed for MWO.

LRM range in TT is 21 hexes. A hex is 30m. 30 x 21 = 630. MWO gave LRMs a range of 1000m. That is a 370m increase. With no damage drop off. However to compensate mechs can only detect targets at 800m. that is still a 170m range increase. A spotter will give you that extra 200m.

The biggest problem with LRM balance is ECM. If ECM only prolonged target locks at long range, and disrupted enemies with in the 180m range then the game would be closer to balanced.

Even with the missile speed increase the devs made on their last LRM change, targets still have plenty of time to find cover midigate damage, if not out right avoid it. Unless your just unlucky, or stupid, and get caught in the open, or there is a spotter in play. Even with a spotter however you can still find cover. Increasing the missile speed slightly will help.

LRMs should be a rather influential weapon in the game. After all to truly use them effectively requires team work. Not only does the LRM boat need to work with a spotter(s), They also need to be protected by another teammate.

In all honesty I think both energy and ballistics should have their max ranged changed to 1.5x the TT ranges. This will give the extra range that plausibility would dictate they would have, and at the same time create a needed restriction for game play.

That way if a team really does need to do effective damage at 1000m then they will need a spotter. They will need to commit some recon for the task. That is what roll war far is about.

In addition would like detection ranges to be lowered then have it changed based on the size (tonnage) of the target.

[CrashieJ]

Galenit, on 27 February 2014 - 02:22 AM, said:

You want around 433 kph speed for your locust?

Thats what you need to outrun the 120m/s (432kph) missiles we have now ...


Masc will give you twice your walking speed, there is nothing about running speed.

But if pgi decides to use runspeed for masc, 334 kph is still not enough to outrun the 120m/s (432kph) missiles ...

I would't mind my Locust going 180kph with MASC and a 190XL + 3 HS because if you haven't noticed the Locust and upcoming Flea will be 55-70% engine. Hell, drop a turbocharger (which is MASC compatible) and watch me fly at over 200kph.

Sure at a standoff I won't be outrunning missiles tick-for-tack, but at least let me have the ability to outsmart them by strategic maneuvering (you know that thing you do with a brain where you do a bit of mental math and compensate for trajectory and angle?) and let my AMS pick up the stragglers.

Or has this game gone from "A Thinking Man's Shooter" to "A -------- ----- Shooter"?

I'm a Scout in a Brawler's World, you can at least make us viable on the battlefield by being missile chasers

Kjudoon, on 27 February 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

I want to outrun autocannons... but it ain't going to happen, nor should it with LRMs.

I wish I could outrun autocannons, oh wait I FREAKING DO, I run circles around everyone else and they have the worst time aiming for my legs, watching poorly lead Ac20 rounds hit around me as a peel a lone assault slowly as he yells in chat "SAVE ME SAVE ME!" only to slip between cover as his Meta-Buddies show up and get blasted by LERMS from my allies...

I am Locust, fear me.

[Willard Phule]

Khobai, on 27 February 2014 - 03:37 PM, said:

AMS isnt a problem for LRMs. AMS is a soft counter and fits right in with Reflective Armor, Reactive Armor, Blueshield, etc... The problem is none of these other equipment types are in the game and only LRMs currently get countered by equipment.

ECM on the other hand is a hard counter. It completely shuts down LRMs. ECM stealth absolutely needs to be removed for LRMs to ever be a viable weapon.

Or....perhaps they should increase the range of BAP. Right now, ECM has a range of 180m and BAP has a range to shut down ECM of 160m.

Ok...first off, I need to point out that in TT, NOTHING shuts down ECM except ECM set in counter mode. TAG doesn't do it, BAP doesn't do it, NARC doesn't do it....but, TT isn't live action, either.

But...here's the thing....they've arbitrarily increased the range on EVERYTHING except electronic warefare. AC's go out to about 3 times what they should be on TT...Energy is close to that. Missiles...it's iffy.

Why not extend the range of BAP out to, say, 200m? That way, it cuts out ECM before they get there. That allows the team to lock the target and send help before the guy with BAP closes with it.

[General Taskeen]

Aggressive tweaking? I read that as aggressive twerking.

[Galenit]

gavilatius, on 27 February 2014 - 04:40 PM, said:

... and watch me fly at over 200kph.

Sure at a standoff I won't be outrunning missiles tick-for-tack, but at least let me have the ability to outsmart them by strategic maneuvering (you know that thing you do with a brain ...)

200+ kph is still a lot less then the 432+ you need to outrun them, outsmart then is another thing ...
.. and you dont outrun acs, your not easy to hit, that is something different.

Dirus Nigh, on 27 February 2014 - 04:38 PM, said:

In all honesty I think both energy and ballistics should have their max ranged changed to 1.5x the TT ranges. This will give the extra range that plausibility would dictate they would have, and at the same time create a needed restriction for game play.

I think 2x range for ac´s and energy and 1x for missiles would fit best,
this would let in the 1000m range only:
LRMs
ERLL + AC2 for dot damage
Gauss+ERPPC for pinpoint damage



There are some other things that have to taken into the discussion about lrms:

1. most users have around 35% hit rate with them
2. AMS, dont miss that we mostly see under 50% use of this system, imagine 12 of it with the tier 5 ams-modules when you talk about buffing it.
3. LRMs do not have 1000m range, they have 1000m flyrange and go in an arc ...

Edited by Galenit, 27 February 2014 - 06:27 PM.

[Kjudoon]

Galenit, on 27 February 2014 - 06:16 PM, said:

200+ kph is still a lot less then the 432+ you need to outrun them, outsmart then is another thing ...



There are some other things that have to taken into the discussion about lrms:

1. most users have around 35% hit rate with them
2. 3x ballistic ranges have doubled the number of weapons that have more range then lrms.
3. AMS, dont miss that we mostly see under 50% use of this system, imagine 12 of it with the tier 5 ams-modules when you talk about buffing it.
4. LRMs do not have 1000m range, they have 1000m flyrange and go in an arc ...

Actually their range is 1000m on the ground. I have never seen the arc included in the distance save for time spent reaching target.

Oh, and don't forget double AMS chassis like the Jester, Locust, Oxide, Atlas and a few others. So feasibly, you could have 24 AMS on one team. Yeah. no missiles work then.

Edited by Kjudoon, 27 February 2014 - 06:24 PM.

[SweetJackal]

Kjudoon, on 27 February 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

Horse Hockey. At my Elo level 5-8 enemy mechs packs AMS. How do I know? I count AMS streams when I scout by LRM. Fire a partial salvo low over where you think the enemy is and watch the AMS go berzerk. If AMS was balanced, only the mech fired upon would have it's AMS active instead of acting like a ship's phalax system (which BTW usually is out of ammo after 1-2 missiles and takes 15 minutes to reload in the real world... but we're not talking real world) on steroids. BTW, it also then wouldn't give away the position of the enemy main body helping with stealth.

The only place I don't see AMS much is in 12mans where those meta mechs are so tightly tuned and balanced they have no room for AMS "babyfat" since LRMs are almost unheard of, ECM covers them better and they know how to pilot and use cover in most cases.

Speed and smart positioning does far more to LRMs than AMS could ever do. AMS also gives away it's location and doesn't provide a perfect defense as a staggered salvo will only have the first missile volley chewed up at all.

AMS is actually rather ineffective protection as it takes 0.5 seconds for it to acquire a missile so 1 AMS can knock out 2 missiles during the time missiles are within the bubble. And even then they will always target the closest volley. So two AMS is rather effective against a single mech boating LRM5s and chain firing them, 8 single AMS mechs will only barely take out more than half of a 30 missile swarm.

So why is AMS used then? It appears to be effective. That is it fires whenever missiles come within 90 meters. Nearly at any point when LRMs are fired at you the AMS will knock a few out of the air and if you don't get hit you assume that it was the AMS of you and your teammates that saved you.

Reality is, to completely avoid LRM damage you just need to break the lock and strafe to the side of the firing mech or just put a meager piece of cover between you and the mech firing them. You have close to 4 seconds in most cases to do so and unless you are out in the open on a slow mech you'll be able to break the lock and dodge the missiles OR put a piece of blocking cover for protection.

The vast majority of Med/Heavy builds do push themselves to atleast go 70 to 80 kph. This is more than fast enough. The mechs that -could- have a lot of trouble with LRMs as they are are large, slow Assault Mechs that are exposed.

The trick behind that last statement is that if your are out in the open without options for cover then direct fire weapons would actually drop you -faster- than LRMs. LRMs currently only punish really bad positions and there are far more effective means of completely shutting down the ability for LRMs to deal damage than AMS.

Dirus Nigh, on 27 February 2014 - 04:38 PM, said:

Actually LRM range has changed for MWO.

It's been a while since I've cracked open a BT book but you're right. They did increase the amount from both the Hex Map and the start of the CB but not to the point of other weapons. So I was wrong on some of those values but the situation is still the same.

[Willard Phule]

You know, here's another thing that noone else has mentioned with regard to speeding up LRMs....

Right now, they track to a target you have locked....even if it's moving. As long as you hold the lock, they'll adjust trajectory and go to the target. We've all seen the crazy S curves they pull.

If you sped up the LRMs, they wouldn't be able to adjust their trajectory and track as well as they do when moving slower. They would actually be easier to avoid if you moved perpendicular to their flight path.

Now, granted, if you hear the "incoming missile" warning and just ignore it because you're all zoomed in and waiting for that perfect sniper shot.....well, you kind of get what you deserve for not getting out of the way, don't you?

AMS isn't supposed to wipe out every single missile coming at you. It's supposed to knock out a few to lessen the damage. If you got spotted and didn't do anything to break the lock...just wandered around out in the open, looking for targets of opportunity...it's sort of your own fault.

[Trauglodyte]

AMS is fine, ECM is fine, and LRMs are fine. The one thing hindering LRMs is the loss of time spent arcing up and down. But, that could be adjusted with a slight speed tweak. The thing that people often forget is that most LRM users are running tier 1 tech weapons in a tier 2 tech world. If you're running LRMs and you don't have Artemis, TAG, or something else, that is on you. It's akin to people bitching that the AC5 doesn't fire as quickly as the UAC5. Well duh, it is a tech upgrade. You either go with the flow of the game or you get swept aside.

[Kjudoon]

LRMs are a tier 1 weapon. If they are a tier 1 weapon, why have the had their speed downgraded, targetting blocked, damage reduced, splash damage removed and multiple coiunters introduced to the point of making the weapon laughable?

Because they have been artificially made a 'tier 1' weapon because of whiners and the fact they were THE meta..

[WarHippy]

Artgathan, on 26 February 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

It might help, but if I recall correctly there's a 0.5 second "dead zone" before the AMS can acquire a new target. From what I understand it works like this:

• Missiles enter AMS range
  
• AMS takes 0.5s to acquire first target
  
• Target is destroyed
  
• AMS takes 0.5s to acquire new target
  
• etc...

Lowering their health will result in faster target destruction, but the AMS is still "bottlenecked" by the need to acquire a new target (and with faster-flying missiles, they'll travel farther in this time).

They could up the range a little on AMS to help deal with that perhaps?

[Trauglodyte]

LRMs have always been tier 1 weapons just like all base lasers, SRMs, and AC. Tier 2 weapons are ERs, Pulses, Ultras, LBs, Streaks, and the addition of Artemis, TAG, NARC, ECM, and BAP. What LRM whiners never want to realize or accept is the fact that a tier 1 weapon will always lose in a tier 2 world. Guided missiles in this game act just like they do in real life. You need a means upon which to gain a lock (radar). You get tone, missiles lock, you fire, and missiles hit (unless there are countermeasures in place). In MWO, ECM acts just like our electronic warfare units there by scrambling your ability to get radar lock. AMS acts just like chaff, flares, or the anti-missile guns on naval ships. To get through this, you upgrade your weaponry to utility laser guided munitions thereby circumventing radar noise.

LRMs have always been and will always be tier 1 weapons. They don't go to tier 2 unless you add in the needed gear and upgrade your game play. It amazes me that so many people want to go to the least amount of extremes with LRMs only to whine about their ineffectiveness. Yet, they have no problem playing with direct fire weapons and "kicking ass". LRMs need to be played as if they were direct fire weapons and they need an update in speed and angle to round out the play style.

[Kjudoon]

Trauglodyte, on 28 February 2014 - 10:09 AM, said:

LRMs have always been tier 1 weapons just like all base lasers, SRMs, and AC. Tier 2 weapons are ERs, Pulses, Ultras, LBs, Streaks, and the addition of Artemis, TAG, NARC, ECM, and BAP. What LRM whiners never want to realize or accept is the fact that a tier 1 weapon will always lose in a tier 2 world. Guided missiles in this game act just like they do in real life. You need a means upon which to gain a lock (radar). You get tone, missiles lock, you fire, and missiles hit (unless there are countermeasures in place). In MWO, ECM acts just like our electronic warfare units there by scrambling your ability to get radar lock. AMS acts just like chaff, flares, or the anti-missile guns on naval ships. To get through this, you upgrade your weaponry to utility laser guided munitions thereby circumventing radar noise.

LRMs have always been and will always be tier 1 weapons. They don't go to tier 2 unless you add in the needed gear and upgrade your game play. It amazes me that so many people want to go to the least amount of extremes with LRMs only to whine about their ineffectiveness. Yet, they have no problem playing with direct fire weapons and "kicking ass". LRMs need to be played as if they were direct fire weapons and they need an update in speed and angle to round out the play style.

You don't run LRMs do you? Way too often when my lance goes in with over 150LRM tubes I hear a constant complaint about LRM boats and bleeping missiles. I never hear this level of kvetching about any other weapon. Tier one... okay. keep thinking that.

Edited by Kjudoon, 28 February 2014 - 10:12 AM.