383 replies to this topic

[Abivard]

Increase the rate of fire and target acquisition of the AMS along with the new LRM speed. Perhaps lower health of missiles if they take more than one round of AMS to destroy.

This would also help bring streaks back into line.

I am pretty sure AMS does not get triggered by SRM's

The LRM speed is to slow to catch fast mechs, this is BAD thing,

Choices to correct this are:
To speed up LRM's, or place a speed cap on MECHS.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Abivard, on 26 February 2014 - 02:16 PM, said:

Increase the rate of fire and target acquisition of the AMS along with the new LRM speed. Perhaps lower health of missiles if they take more than one round of AMS to destroy.

This would also help bring streaks back into line.

I am pretty sure AMS does not get triggered by SRM's

The LRM speed is to slow to catch fast mechs, this is BAD thing,

Choices to correct this are:
To speed up LRM's, or place a speed cap on MECHS.

AMS will hit SRM's if they are triggered outside of 200m.

And assisting AMS tend to be a little more lenient with that regard.

[SweetJackal]

SirLANsalot, on 26 February 2014 - 02:11 PM, said:

hmm.


Then I guess my LRM boat Protector games last night were a fluke.
LRM20 and LRM10 twin LL and Tag with Artemis. 11tons of ammo. Was getting 200-300 damage a game when I hit with just LRMs, and some games was getting 400-600 when the LL were getting used along side the LRM bombardment. People have severely underestimated the power that is an LRM20 with Art and Tag.....turns people mechs all kinds of colors.


Those games were just with TWO launchers....TWO.....not 3 or 4 that other, bigger, mechs have.......

Well, to be fair, you invested 28 tons in launchers and ammo for just 300 damage when firing alone. That's a pretty heavy investment.

[NRP]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 26 February 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

I always love this post from you. I see maybe one LRM boat per match. And it's normally that crappy Stalker.

Well, I am not you.

[Josef Nader]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 26 February 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

Hmm? So why have so many major groups left (including your own clan) and we are now down to a paltry 10-15% of the player base dropping in groups?

Seems like PGI must've had something to do with that.

They aren't arbitrary, they are not my numbers, have you listened to Bryan on the latest Podcast? This is THEIR numbers. Jesus.

The competitive circuit has nothing to do with how teams function in this game. The competitive circuit fell apart because PGI has totally failed to support them with things like Community Warfare and private lobbies. This has little to nothing to do with the actual weapon balance. People just got fed up of spending a whole night trying to sync drop a 12 man so they could play a tournament.

[Cimarb]

Sandpit, on 26 February 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

Ok, in other words "You don't agree with me and I don't like what you have to say so you're just making noise"

You're just wanting everyone to agree with you and those that don't are dismissed. You have a different opinion. That's great. The difference between us? I didn't dismiss you just because you have an opinion that differs from mine. NOW you're getting dismissed because it's painfully obvious that you're just another player that only wants to have a discussion with people who agree with you and only want changes made to the game that YOU like

I should put this in my signature - well said.

CyclonerM, on 26 February 2014 - 01:32 PM, said:

I totally agree to the need of some love for LRMs, but actually i think the problem is ECM preventing target lock.

I would like a speed tweak to LRMs, but fixing ECM would be a much better solution across the board. ECM was never meant to be a complete block to LRMs, and should instead just reduce the lock on time and negate the bonuses of other systems, such as Artemis.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Josef Nader, on 26 February 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

The competitive circuit has nothing to do with how teams function in this game. The competitive circuit fell apart because PGI has totally failed to support them with things like Community Warfare and private lobbies. This has little to nothing to do with the actual weapon balance. People just got fed up of spending a whole night trying to sync drop a 12 man so they could play a tournament.

I'm not talking about the competitive circuit. Go read the summary on Bryan's latest podcast. 10-15% of TOTAL people dropping are in groups.

That includes 2, 3 4 and 12. That's it.

It's freaking sad man.

[A Man In A Can]

Assuming individual LRM volleys are a cloud with a set amount of health and that damage to that cloud / health per missile = the number of missiles shot down, then yes reducing the health of LRMs would be a good tradeoff without throwing the status quo of the other missiles vs AMS out the window.

If not, then yeah I can kind of see that would be a tricky thing to adjust as any change to AMS then necessitates a change in health or speed to all the other missiles.

[Abivard]

Cimarb, on 26 February 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

I should put this in my signature - well said.


I would like a speed tweak to LRMs, but fixing ECM would be a much better solution across the board. ECM was never meant to be a complete block to LRMs, and should instead just reduce the lock on time and negate the bonuses of other systems, such as Artemis.

ECM has not a single thing to do with Fast mechs out running LRM's....
I think you may have meant to post in one of the many ECM topics that abound in the forums and that PGI ignores.

[Cimarb]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 26 February 2014 - 02:22 PM, said:

I'm not talking about the competitive circuit. Go read the summary on Bryan's latest podcast. 10-15% of TOTAL people dropping are in groups.

That includes 2, 3 4 and 12. That's it.

It's freaking sad man.

That's not sad, considering CW isn't in place yet. I may start grouping at that point, but I thoroughly enjoy PUG matches in the current system, and kind of loathe the time where I will feel forced to drop with a group just to get anything meaningful done.

Abivard, on 26 February 2014 - 02:25 PM, said:

ECM has not a single thing to do with Fast mechs out running LRM's....
I think you may have meant to post in one of the many ECM topics that abound in the forums and that PGI ignores.

We are talking about ways to fix LRMs. Currently, ECM is the biggest issue with LRMs, which is why it needs fixed. The number of mechs that outrun a flight of missiles is quite minute compared to that issue, and if you are shooting at lights moving that fast with LRMs, you deserve to miss a lot...

[Bront]

LRM balancing needs to:
1) Make smaller LRMs more viable. A single LRM5 should be something worth taking for more than just assist whoring. Currently LRMs need to be boated (Either lots of launchers, lots of missles, or a combination of both). This doesn't mean make the LRM5 the best thing ever, but allow it to be a functional complementary weapon.

2) Penalize boating. The ability to boat LRMs means any fix that helps issue number 1 breaks the super-large LRM boats. I can't think of a cannon mech that could launch more than 40 missiles. The LRMPocolypse comes from mechs boating 50 or more of the launchers.

3) Balance Ammo consumption and tonnage requirements. Part of the reason LRMs need to get boated is because between the gear and ammo needed, you have to commit a lot of tonnage already. Fix ammo issues a bit, would bring this more in line.

4) Return the Long in Long Range Missiles. Currently, it's rarely worth firing beyond 700 meters, while plenty of other "long range" weapons do just fine at that range. Speed is where this helps. It shouldn't take 2 seconds to get to your target.

5) Balance LRMs in a system where there are numerous countermeasures against them.


I don't know if I have a good answer, and missile tubes and chainfiring helps muddy the waters a bit. Right now, most missile mechs are better off loading up on LRM15s or 5s, and the LRM20 is severely lacking (LRM15 groups tighter, is lighter per missile launched, and has a better crit space usage (LRM20 uses 5 crit slots instead of 4. An issue even in TT). There needs to be some kind of fix.

Edited by Bront, 26 February 2014 - 02:41 PM.

[Charons Little Helper]

Bront, on 26 February 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

2) Penalize boating. The ability to boat LRMs means any fix that helps issue number 1 breaks the super-large LRM boats. I can't think of a cannon mech that could launch more than 40 missiles. The LRMPocolypse comes from mechs boating 50 or more of the launchers.

They already do - it's called ghost heat. LRMs have it whenever they fire more than two launchers bigger than an LRM 5.

[Daekar]

If they're going to increase LRM flight speed to make them a bit more dangerous, then just decrease LRM missile hit points so the AMS units can shoot them down faster without affecting SRMs and streaks.

[Zerberoff]

Can we please start to merge threads that belongs together?
This one should go into the ECM is OP thread.
We could do the same with Poptart vs. Ghostheat.

Lets call it "Ultimate Forum Smackdown"

Edited by Zerberoff, 26 February 2014 - 02:52 PM.

[Abivard]

Cimarb, on 26 February 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

That's not sad, considering CW isn't in place yet. I may start grouping at that point, but I thoroughly enjoy PUG matches in the current system, and kind of loathe the time where I will feel forced to drop with a group just to get anything meaningful done.


We are talking about ways to fix LRMs. Currently, ECM is the biggest issue with LRMs, which is why it needs fixed. The number of mechs that outrun a flight of missiles is quite minute compared to that issue, and if you are shooting at lights moving that fast with LRMs, you deserve to miss a lot...

You are rather clueless it seems....

Paul posted about LRM's not hitting lights. that is a problem, they should hit the fast mechs.

You and your cronies are trying to change the subject to an ECM debate, go post in the ECM threads instead of hijacking other threads.

[wintersborn]

I agree with most people here that LRM's needs a good speed increase.

A fast light with a single AMS may and I do mean may get hit with one missile from a LRM5 when he is running. That same fast light will be in cover before the third salvo from a chain firing LRM5 boat, taking maybe 2 or 3 missiles.

Now with all the packs of twin AMS or ECM lights its so bad that even Streaks are not that affective.
Even with line of sight and TAG its not worth using LRM's on fast lights or pop tarts, they are just too slow.

I think it was ten seconds of flight time at 750m(TAG)or maybe that was max range?

How many AC/PPC rounds are you going to get hit with while lumbering along at 60ish KPH out in the open for Artemis and TAG to be effective in that 10 seconds?

LRM's needs a good speed buff and that is all I think PGI can handle.

[Bront]

Charons Little Helper, on 26 February 2014 - 02:48 PM, said:

They already do - it's called ghost heat. LRMs have it whenever they fire more than two launchers bigger than an LRM 5.

It's not really enough now, and will definately not be enough if they buff LRMs more. That also doesn't address the chain-firing of 4 LRM15s.

[Kjudoon]

Dymlos2003, on 26 February 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

There are a lot of people like this person. They will continue to call for balance and then say you can't balance it. Weapon balance is pretty good right now and a speed increase would help LRMS.

Yep. Sounds like a good case for getting rid of half the 'balancing' mechanisms and get it back to a point where it can be balanced between one or two items, not six or seven.

[Willard Phule]

Sandpit, on 26 February 2014 - 12:22 PM, said:

Since when does AMS destroy an entire flight of missiles? The ONLY time I see this is when you have multiples stacked up in a tight group somewhere. I can get hits on target with an LRM5 against AMS

Christ, I step out to get some chores done and drink a couple of beers and....it goes to 4 pages.

On the off chance that someone hasn't already addressed this.....

Let's say you've got a single...that means ONE...LRM5 on your mech. Yeah, the concept is worthless, but in a PUG drop it still gives you the assist.

Your flight of 5LRMs is exposed to an AMS for 1.5 seconds. It's going to take 3.5x1.5 points of damage...that's 5.25 points. The entire flight is wiped out.

Let's say you've got two LRM5s. Since they're coming in hot on each other's tails, the second one is probably going to hit and do the full 5 points. Ok, cool.

Let's say you've got a Catapult with 6 LRM5s (the current flavor of the month). The first and third are going to occupy the AMS system...so you're going to get 20 points through. No, I don't have exact scientific proof of this, but experience proves it.

My current "sweet spot" with lrms is the ALRM30. If I do it by 2 ALRM15s, then let's do the math.....30 missiles exposed to AMS doing 3.5 points of damage for 1.5 seconds equals....24.75 points of damage. Give or take.

If I do it with an ALRM20 and an ALRM10, then the first batch (the alpha strike) will do the 24.75 points of damage...after that, it's a chain fire kind of thing since the ALRM10 loads faster. It's been my experience that the ALRM10 will only do minimal damage but the ALRM20 will cause some serious hurt.

Either way, it doesn't matter. All the bitching and whining about AMS is because the AMS that is loaded isn't protecting them from LRM60 builds...or multiple LRM60 builds since that stupid Trial Stalker is out there.

AMS was NEVER designed to be an impenetrable umbrella. It was designed to lessen the damage from a SINGLE FLIGHT of missiles. In TT, if someone shot 4 LRM20s at you, you could designate ONE of those flights to have the AMS work on...the other 3 come in on their own. Granted, it splits into 5 point groups which are randomly assigned...but, whatever. And, you could assign an AMS to work on ONLY ONE flight of missiles. Even if you had 4 AMS loaded, you couldn't assign more than one to a single group of missiles.

My problem with the speed of the missiles comes from all these buggy assed spiders running around with a rooster tail of LRMs chasing them. One would think that a solid fuel rocket would be FASTER than a humanoid mech with myomer powering it.

Charons Little Helper, on 26 February 2014 - 02:48 PM, said:

They already do - it's called ghost heat. LRMs have it whenever they fire more than two launchers bigger than an LRM 5.

Why the hell don't they have the LRMs hitting random locations like the streaks do? It's not like they don't have the ability to code it...look what the SSRM2s do...they hit all over the damn place. LRMs lock, SSRMs lock...have the damn things hit random locations instead of the torsos and stuff. Simply break the missiles coming out of the tubes into 5 point blocks (or whatever goofy crap is actually coming out of the inadequate tubes) and assign them a random hit location. Whatever is left after the AMS does it's job does the damage. This ain't rocket science...or...wait....in a sense, maybe it is.

wintersborn, on 26 February 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

LRM's needs a good speed buff and that is all I think PGI can handle.

I question even that.

Edited by Willard Phule, 26 February 2014 - 03:32 PM.

[Livewyr]

LRMs should be balanced without the mitigating/enhancing factors in mind. This way, those effects are just what they should be- enhancing, or mitigating. (One very important caveat: ECM needs to NOT be an off switch, and BAP shouldn't have to be an on switch. It is impossible to balance LRMs when there are devices required to make them entirely useless, or useful at all.)

LRMs, alone, should be balanced for when dealing with a mech that doesn't have mitigating gear. So when you spend the cbills, weight, and space to make them more powerful with Artemis, they are just that- more powerful. One shouldn't have to spend weight and space to just make them balanced.
[Clarifying Edit: To spend resources on AMS should give you some mitigation, just as with ECM- opposite spending resources on Artemis, BAP, etc..let the arms race be between individual mechs, not the meta.]

Missiles should speed up, just a little more- and have the spread equivalent to an atlas upper body. *(Maybe minus the arms, maybe.)
Artemis should tighten the group, with LoS.
AMS should be toned down to reduce damage from LRMs, but not be able to completely nullify LRMx40 barrage with 3 AMS systems.
ECM should have an effect of increasing the spread, or making a variable percentage miss, and cancel out Artemis. Not remove locking-ability. (That's what stealth armor is for.) It should nullify BAP.
BAP should increase the range of locking, and shorten the lock time, as it does- it should not have to counter ECM's shutoff.
TAG should be required for calling in artillery/air strikes- and for aiding in artillery missiles should they ever arrive.
Adv. Target Decay should do exactly what it's doing. It's an extra piece of equipment, taking up a slot, to specialize for a mech carrying missiles. (perhaps ECM can shorten its effect)
NARC should be attached to the component where it hits, and remain there for 45 seconds or until the component where it landed is destroyed. NARC should have no impact on Artemis LRMs.

TL;DR:
Missiles should be balanced without the other electronics.
Other electronics should be balanced between their costs(empirical and meta) vs their effectiveness.

We already have the issue where DHS is a requirement to be competitive- which can be solved but hasn't.
We don't want missiles to go the same route.

Edited by Livewyr, 26 February 2014 - 03:37 PM.