47 replies to this topic

[Oni Ralas]

I've struggled to understand the PGI approach to balance, especially after being involved in several other IPs over the last few months. I brought this up a looooong time ago, and I think it's even more relevant now than then.

Without any form of linear progression, or tiers, I can't see how things can ever be balanced. Forget weapons for a moment - I'm talking about the core how all things MechWarrior happen.

Take a newbro and an oldbro. Newbro has been playing for a day or so, with all those nice trial mechs, and has amassed himself enough money to buy an atlas. Good for him! It's a capitalist society in the IS, so if you want it.. go buy it. So after his purchase, he's sitting in his brand new Atlas cockpit, ready to take on the world. His ELO has never been calculated - as it's based on the chassis he's in and not his time played.

Oldbro decides he's had enough of the 50 other mechs in his bays and finally picks up an atlas. He's got a bit more cash to throw around, so he springs for the better setup and of course the modules to go with it. His elo has also not been calculated, since he has never piloted the atlas. However, he's got a ton of seat time in everything else, so all the concepts are the same.


Both get dropped into the same random match. What's weird is that their elo's get match with other elo's of the same bracket - but nothing based on chassis weight or loadout. Will it be 10 others in shiney new atlas' (Steiner lance FTW) or a bunch of Centurian A's in default loadout? Who knows.


After a steady whooping, the following results have occurred:
- Newbro gets his ass handed to him. Even with all that tonnage and firepower, he slowboats into the line of fire and is dropped. They lied to him! Assaults are supposed to be the best! Ugh this game sucks...

- Oldbro gets torn up, but not before doing decent damage. He's already learned some of the quirks of the chassis, and with all the pinpoint spam, knows better than to go rushing in. He'll likely stick with the chassis a bit, but will probably go back to some of his others.


Without any form of progression, newbro burned all his money and probably got frustrated (maybe even coming to the forum to rant about how assaults are broken?). Oldbro has been around long enough to just know how things go, the luxury of time in grade. How in the world do we consider this a good idea? I'm not going to turn my daughter loose in a Ferrari when she turns 16, why would I let a new player access the biggest/most expensive items without any form of proving their worth?


I'm not suggesting we sandbox everyone or make them start with X chassis - but giving people a progression tree *AND* a "safe haven" to play around with others in their skill class makes them want to actually stay and learn. You can break up the mechs into tiers, with overlap, and have the ELO play into it. You can also grand unlocks of variants (or lock a tier down to pure "stock" mechs, etc) without really changing much from a mechanical standpoint.


/endrant

PS: Is it that hard to give us a "Eyes on my target!" command key? Even without voice comms, those who play Star Conflict can easily let their team know whats up by "pinging" a target (which makes a ping sound and notifies you in the chat window). It's amazing how such a small thing can turn the tide of a fight.

[Joseph Mallan]

New bro is an idiot if he doesn't try more than the one Mech.

[Noesis]

Assault Mechs in BT are not that well supplied and even with the prohibitive costs there would certainly be a limited supply of them. Its best not considering them an on the shelf product.

Assault Mechs are probably more suitable to newer players anyhow due to their survivability and damage potential. In essence in the existing Meta Mediums require much more situational awareness to apply well in the game. And each class has their own relevant skill set of how best to apply them.

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I'm not suggesting we sandbox everyone or make them start with X chassis

Normally you use the term "sandbox" to mean being able to choose what you want with freedom as opposed to being prescriptive or restrictive. i.e. you can use the sand to make what you want out of it.

"To see the world in a grain of sand
and heaven in a wild flower,
hold infinity in the palm of your hand
and eternity in an hour ....."

- Augeries of innocence, William Blake

[Joseph Mallan]

Noesis, on 25 February 2014 - 09:10 AM, said:

Normally you use the term "sandbox" to mean being able to choose what you want with freedom as opposed to being prescriptive or restrictive. i.e. you can use the sand to make what you want out of it.

"To see the world in a grain of sand
and heaven in a wild flower,
hold infinity in the palm of your hand
and eternity in an hour ....."

- Augeries of innocence, William Blake

Respect!

[Khobai]

The game should just start you off with a medium mech for free. I never understood why they added a cadet bonus. Its just an overcomplicated way of getting people into their first mech that forces them to use awful trial mechs in the meantime.

Just start new players off with a champion centurion. Since the champion centurion has already been given out for free it makes sense to just give it to all players for free.

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Assault Mechs are probably more suitable to newer players anyhow due to their survivability and damage potential.

But you learn the fundamentals of play better in a medium. Jumping right into an assault doesnt really teach you to fear pinpoint damage. But when you play a medium and your armor gets vaporized in one hit you learn how to not get hit in the first place. And that in turn makes you a better assault player.

Edited by Khobai, 25 February 2014 - 09:19 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

I think it would be better if the Mech was built to allow multiple ranges, A Griffin or Shadow Hawk. I have to free up tonnage on my Cent to get it back to packing an AC10! Unless the Large laser gets the job done.

[Wintersdark]

Elo is calculated by weight class, not chassis. Its highly probably that Old bro has other Assault mechs in his stable and as such will have an Elo score for his shiny new Atlas.

Newbro will have a middle-of-the-road score in his atlas, so he'll be placed amongst the vast bulk of average players. Its unlikely that New bro and Oldbro will meet in your example.

I'm also not understanding your progression examples (re not turning a 16yr old loose in a Ferrari). Assault mechs are not simply better than lights/mediums/heavies.

We DO have overall pilot XP (check yours in your profile stats). This will be used to determine pilot level come CW (according to the launch presentation and recent CC posts) and theoretically add some level of linear progression.

But the problem with linear progression and the reason MWO is a very "flat" game is it creates an extra divide between experienced and inexperienced players. Right now, the experienced player is going to simply be better (under normal circumstances anyways). Add a linear progression system offering more power, and he's that much better still than the new player.

In MWO, once a new player has mastered his first much, the only difference between him and any other player whose mastered at least once much I'd actual player skill. This is a good thing.

Its great to add things for players to work towards, but that must be balanced against making one player better than another simply by virtue of having been around longer. That creates an even worse environment for new players.

[Oni Ralas]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 February 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

New bro is an idiot if he doesn't try more than the one Mech.

Ah yes, punish the idiot for going for the iconic mechs. Punish them for not having any real progression path or approach to combat, aside from dropping them in with randoms.

Sounds a brilliant strategy for retaining members LOL

[Oni Ralas]

Noesis, on 25 February 2014 - 09:10 AM, said:

Assault Mechs in BT are not that well supplied and even with the prohibitive costs there would certainly be a limited supply of them. Its best not considering them an on the shelf product.

Assault Mechs are probably more suitable to newer players anyhow due to their survivability and damage potential. In essence in the existing Meta Mediums require much more situational awareness to apply well in the game. And each class has their own relevant skill set of how best to apply them.

Assault mechs were just one example, but an important one. it's a *BAD* idea to start someone out with an assault, it will only breed bad piloting skills. And yes, they *should* be a rarity, but right now with zero thought as to tonnage or BV, it doesn't mean anything.

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Normally you use the term "sandbox" to mean being able to choose what you want with freedom as opposed to being prescriptive or restrictive. i.e. you can use the sand to make what you want out of it.

You may also use it to describe a method putting children into separate groups to keep them from running around doing what ever they want. They may, however, do what they wish inside their specific sphear of influence (the box). It's a tiered system - individual worlds that can either exist as part of a whole eco system, or totally independent.

[Joseph Mallan]

Oni Ralas, on 25 February 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

Ah yes, punish the idiot for going for the iconic mechs. Punish them for not having any real progression path or approach to combat, aside from dropping them in with randoms.

Sounds a brilliant strategy for retaining members LOL

Punish? Interesting choice of words. Going through the 25 Boot drops New Bro probably saw a distinct difference in his game play between Medium and Heavy etc. If he had trouble in Assaults and bought one anyway, shame on him. If he really wanted t be an Atlas Pilot, he needed to do like me. Stick it out. Grind the experience needed to be productive in the Mech, and accept his lumps as the lessens they are. not everyone needs to be spoon fed victories. I personally was terribad in my Atlas for weeks! Took me 6 weeks to get to where I felt ready to join Murphy's which was 3 weeks after I was invited. Cause I was not "good enough" when I was initially asked. Fortitude is lacking, its not the games fault. I faced every hurdle New bro has to with the exception of 12 man sync drops... We had legal 8man. So yes, School of hard knocks graduate, 1980something! And proud of it.

[Oni Ralas]

Wintersdark, on 25 February 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

Elo is calculated by weight class, not chassis. Its highly probably that Old bro has other Assault mechs in his stable and as such will have an Elo score for his shiny new Atlas.

Newbro will have a middle-of-the-road score in his atlas, so he'll be placed amongst the vast bulk of average players. Its unlikely that New bro and Oldbro will meet in your example.

Yet they do meet - constantly. Drop into any single game, you will see *clearly* new players in the same bracket as older players. Of course, with no visual exposure of the actual score, PGI has no way of letting us confirm this. If it's by wieight class, then something else is severely ****** up.

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I'm also not understanding your progression examples (re not turning a 16yr old loose in a Ferrari). Assault mechs are not simply better than lights/mediums/heavies.

Assault mechs carry more armor and more firepower than a light/med/heavy. They may not be better (pilot skills withstanding) but, with each calculation of odds, an assault has a higher chance at survival than a light. They're opposite ends of the spectrum.

The Ferrari example is perfect. In the MW universe, Assaults are rare and expensive, reserved for the most veteran of pilots. A fresh out of boot mech jockey would never find him/herself in the cockpit. They're too complex, to big, to expensive for that ever to occur. In terms of progression, they should be "end game" for lack of a better term - something you ultimately want to unlock based on your prowess as pilot. This doesn't worry currently as there is zero restriction on both acquisition and application of the chassis.

There is a reason MMO's don't start you off with 50 spells and epic armor. Besides the pure mechanical hilarity of it all, it also has a financial one -- not giving someone the carrot means they're not going to keep moving forward. No time, no money - no money, no game.

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We DO have overall pilot XP (check yours in your profile stats). This will be used to determine pilot level come CW (according to the launch presentation and recent CC posts) and theoretically add some level of linear progression.

As it's implemented, pilot XP is near worthless. Buffing up a chassis a bit is nice, but doesn't change when/how I can use it. I've got damn near every chassis (62 mechs I believe) fully elited and already own every module there is. It was a pure afterthought, a "thanks for playing this one chassis over and over" reward.

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But the problem with linear progression and the reason MWO is a very "flat" game is it creates an extra divide between experienced and inexperienced players. Right now, the experienced player is going to simply be better (under normal circumstances anyways). Add a linear progression system offering more power, and he's that much better still than the new player.

In MWO, once a new player has mastered his first much, the only difference between him and any other player whose mastered at least once much I'd actual player skill. This is a good thing.

One he has mastered it is the key here. That's assuming he *sticks around* after getting ROFLSTOMPED over and over again by the randomness of drops (who knows, maybe he'll get luck). Saying "Don't worry noob, eventually you'll catch up to his mech's unlock status" is a piss poor business model when your only revenue stream is hoping people stick around long enough to buy something.

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Its great to add things for players to work towards, but that must be balanced against making one player better than another simply by virtue of having been around longer. That creates an even worse environment for new players.

Tiered systems fix that problem. It keeps certain mechs available at higher tier gameplay, and punishes someone for trolling the lowbie tiers if their own personal score is too high.


Example:

Tier 1 encompasses ranks 1-3 of MechWarriors. As a new player, your rank is 1. In this tier, you are allowed to enter with mechs that have been cleared for this tier (Let's say a hand full of lights, mediums, and a heavy for taste). They are labled as T1's. You may select any of the T1 mechs from the available list, and drop into combat. As you progress, your personal XP increases your personal ranking, as well as your ability to pilot a T1 chassis.

Now fast forward a bit. You've been playing with low ranked players using (intentionally) controlled chassis lists. You've done well, and now are a big fish in a small pond - you're Rank 3 MechWarrior and you've elited your T1 chassis. There is nothing stopping you from continuing your adventures in the 1-3 rank system, but you've already mastered the chassis...so there isn't much for you. You've now moved up to Rank4, which puts you in Tier2 - Ranks 4-6. But wait, am I forcing you to move up to the next tier? No. As a Rank4 you can still enter a T1 match, however your rewards with be greatly diminished. By contrast, moving into the T2 as a R4 gives you a bonus (as you're now the small fish again...) to your income and maybe some XP perks. So, you can easily go hang out with your newbie friends in T1 combat and teach them, while jumping into highly structured high tiers once you've unlocked them.

This gives new players a safe haven while learning (yes, they can still be trolled by better pilots...but that trolling comes at a cost to the troller)
This gives me a reason to progress, to acess new variants of chassis I've already been using or maybe some new ones in higher tiers
This gives me the flexibility to jump into any tier I want and still have fun with friends. I know T5 combat is going to be pure premades (all vets), but T2 is still pretty relaxed... perfect for a PUG match. Etc. etc.


There has to be some method to the madness. Fluff shouldn't play a part in it, but logic should. Until there is a reasonable expectation of *SOME* form of dropship/bv/tonnage limits (Soon™) then it's just the same *********** we've dealt with for 3 years.

[Oni Ralas]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 February 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

Punish? Interesting choice of words. Going through the 25 Boot drops New Bro probably saw a distinct difference in his game play between Medium and Heavy etc. If he had trouble in Assaults and bought one anyway, shame on him. If he really wanted t be an Atlas Pilot, he needed to do like me. Stick it out. Grind the experience needed to be productive in the Mech, and accept his lumps as the lessens they are. not everyone needs to be spoon fed victories. I personally was terribad in my Atlas for weeks! Took me 6 weeks to get to where I felt ready to join Murphy's which was 3 weeks after I was invited. Cause I was not "good enough" when I was initially asked. Fortitude is lacking, its not the games fault. I faced every hurdle New bro has to with the exception of 12 man sync drops... We had legal 8man. So yes, School of hard knocks graduate, 1980something! And proud of it.

I'm glad you stuck around, and I'm glad you set a goal to get better at it. But for every one of you/me/other guys on this forum who stay - countless more will bail.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want EZ mode. But the fact of the matter is with *SO MUCH* IP out there now, players will not stay with something if they are put off by it - even if the game is absolutely brilliant. Essentially, they're tuned for end-game style player retention, which doesn't work with a F2P model. There is a huge difference between making the entire game a hand-holding excorcise, and throwing someone in the deep end on their first day. Any EVE veteran knows what I'm talking about, I still use that as the most brutal form of learning there is in an MMO.

It's a numbers game gentlemen. If the numbers don't stay, there is no game. I'm no longer a whale for PGI to harpoon - I figure after >300$ I've done my due diligence to see this thing survive. The only avnue I see is to appeal to a larger range of people (who AREN'T core MW fans) and make the initial experiences the best they possibly can be. I brought all this up after (again) introducing ~10 people to the game over the last month. 9 of them gave up after a day. I used to say "well **** them, they weren't MW material..." but now? I feel bad that they get turned away from what could be a *PHENOMONOLY BRILLIANT GAME* due to some UI and structuring problems.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Hasn't PGI already said that they plan on using the achievement system to set players up with starter mechs and such? I suspect the whole 5-win-Centurion deal was a test run for this, among many other things.

[Oni Ralas]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 25 February 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

Hasn't PGI already said that they plan on using the achievement system to set players up with starter mechs and such? I suspect the whole 5-win-Centurion deal was a test run for this, among many other things.

PGI has said a lot of things I really hope there is a major push in these kinds of directions and soon (not and not Soon™).

[Joseph Mallan]

Sound like Eve is/was the style of learning I am used to.

[Joseph Mallan]

Oni Ralas, on 25 February 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

I'm glad you stuck around, and I'm glad you set a goal to get better at it. But for every one of you/me/other guys on this forum who stay - countless more will bail.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want EZ mode. But the fact of the matter is with *SO MUCH* IP out there now, players will not stay with something if they are put off by it - even if the game is absolutely brilliant. Essentially, they're tuned for end-game style player retention, which doesn't work with a F2P model. There is a huge difference between making the entire game a hand-holding excorcise, and throwing someone in the deep end on their first day. Any EVE veteran knows what I'm talking about, I still use that as the most brutal form of learning there is in an MMO.

It's a numbers game gentlemen. If the numbers don't stay, there is no game. I'm no longer a whale for PGI to harpoon - I figure after >300$ I've done my due diligence to see this thing survive. The only avnue I see is to appeal to a larger range of people (who AREN'T core MW fans) and make the initial experiences the best they possibly can be. I brought all this up after (again) introducing ~10 people to the game over the last month. 9 of them gave up after a day. I used to say "well **** them, they weren't MW material..." but now? I feel bad that they get turned away from what could be a *PHENOMONOLY BRILLIANT GAME* due to some UI and structuring problems.

You know what I learned as a TT demo Rep. Folks will walk away no matter what. If one player out of ten picks up a second game at my FNHS I was doing good. This game has not been for the masses... EVER. It is what it is, a dam good combat game.

[Oni Ralas]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 February 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

Sound like Eve is/was the style of learning I am used to.

Hehe, you and me both man. I think most folks that are still around are from this school of though...or are masochists LOL

[Monsoon]

Cool story 'Bro'.

[Oni Ralas]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 February 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

You know what I learned as a TT demo Rep. Folks will walk away no matter what. If one player out of ten picks up a second game at my FNHS I was doing good. This game has not been for the masses... EVER. It is what it is, a dam good combat game.

Oh I know, and ideally it would be a game for the purists. But the reality of the situation is that all us purists/fans can't keep this thing afloat on our own. Nor should we, and nor should we deny a new batch of people interested in the BT/MW universe.

There will always be an attrition rate of any game, but there are some really simple things you can do to ensure it's not right off the bat. I've been having a blast with Star Conflict, and I use it a basis of comparison of what a small company *should* be able to put out.

[Tahribator]

Great post. I think in a team based game like MWO, Elo scores of the individual players are pointless. Rather as you pointed, the difference between "newbie" and "experienced player" has to be taken into account when matchmaking.

So, switching to a "level" based system based on total XP/time accumulated is a better solution for matchmaking. A player who already put 100+ hours into this game will have a better experience when matched with other 100+ hour players. Elo doesn't guarantee experience similiarity, in fact it doesn't guarantee anything. A player can be lucky and drop with good teams boosting his score, or be unlucky and drop to the bottom because of his "bad" team no matter how good he is.