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Critical Hits and Ammo Explosions


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#1 ice trey

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 10:19 PM

One of the things I liked the least from Mechwarrior 4 in general, next only to how easy it was to abuse in multiplayer, was how any time a 'mech died, it always died the same way - a massive flare followed by an explosion which decimated anything in the vicinity. It was cool to look at the first time, and pretty cool the second time, but it started getting really redundant, really fast. What was worse, was that the engine would seemingly go critical from legging, or even a cockpit hit. This "Fusion Plant" seemed to be little more than a miniature Chernobyl in a 'mechs belly. What is weirder still is that, even in the Battletech canon, the only time a fusion reactor is supposed to explode like that is when it's in a book published by Michael Stackpole. Techmanual has clearly stated that when a 'mechs engine is breached, there is no dramatic explosion like an atomic bomb, as a fusion plant is not nuclear fission - It does not and cannot go critical. Instead, the minute that the vacuum inside of the engine is exposed to the air outside. The air, in turn, rushes to fill the vacuum and douses the plasma flame inside, much like pouring water over a campfire. The result is sometimes a "burp" of plasma flame being extinguished, but little more.

But hey, I admit, I LOVE the idea of a 'mech exploding in a massive conflagration, but without the engine explosion what else is there? Well, I'll tell you a forgotten little element of Battletech that Microsoft ignored outright: The Ammo Explosion.

How does the ammo explosion affect gameplay? Well, it's an added risk for using ammunition based weapons, which tend to be cheaper and run cooler, as a whole, than energy weapons, albeit at the cost of weight. However, designs that carry too much ammo into battle risk being the equivalent of being filled with yea many tons of TNT. It doesn't take much to set it off - just a poke of a machine gun or small laser, and suddenly the entire 'mech is blown apart with so much force, nothing salvagable remains.

But that takes us to another forgotten element of the Mechwarrior and Battletech games - the Critical Hit. Crit hits rarely happen when a 'mech is still well armored (1.1% of shots that hit will cause any kind of critical hit), but once the armor is damaged enough on a particular location (Counting as none left), you start to do damage to a mechs' internal structure, and more importantly, have a high chance (40% or so per weapon grouping) to do damage to the internal components, or "Criticals". Some of these have minor effects, like hitting a heat sink or arm actuator, while others can have dramatically handicapping effects, like gyroscope hits, engine hits, cockpit hits, and the ever-daunting Ammo Bin hit.

As to fears of crit hits and ammo explosions causing energy weapon favoritism, consider for a moment that while an autocannon isn't the best choice on small 'mechs, they tend to shine the most on bigger, bulky designs that can afford the AC's weight. These larger designs often can't field as many energy weapons, because these guns produce so much heat that you need to invest in huge amounts of heat sinks to compensate (Take the Awesome as an example. Almost 1/4 of it's weight is dedicated to heat sinks alone; that's more than it's armor, and only 3.5 fewer tons than it invests in weaponry). That makes the AC5 and 10 very tempting candidates, especially when larger 'mechs are more likely to take crit hits over the course of a battle than a light or medium, which tend to die from excessive direct damage. The ammo explosions act as a very interesting equalizer in a battle, giving players a chance similar to a headshot, in which even a mighty Atlas or Orion can be felled with a single lucky shot. This is something that we saw back in Mechwarrior 2 for sure, and possibly in Mechwarrior 3 (I lost my disk years ago).

Of course, the way to counter this vulnerability on any ammo-toting 'mech was to dump your ammo. If the part of your 'mech where the ammo was getting close to having it's armor fully depleted, a push of a button would dump all your remaining ammo out of the back of your 'mech. Of course, this had risks of it's own, as a lucky shot from behind could ignite the dumping ammo, tracing it's way back into your now-exposed torso. Granted that you were smart about where your ammo was dumped, this wasn't a problem.

I seriously think that the Critical Hits system, as well as the Ammo Explosions and ammo dumping systems, should be reinstated in this game. It's just one of many things that Microsoft opted to remove for the sake of the layman. 10 years later and after the near collapse of PC Gaming, I find that PC gamers tend to prefer complexity and detail, while rules-light players tend to veer more towards console gaming. As such, that, combined with a large number of Mechwarrior 2 players on the board, gives me a feeling that this is the route that would be best taken, in order to restore to the game one of it's defining features that separated it from the pack.

Edited by ice trey, 15 November 2011 - 10:21 PM.


#2 Kudzu

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 10:35 PM

This is one of the first things I thought of when they said they were going to stick closer to the TT-- crits in general make a huge difference, but ammo crits really bring the game to life. With the reappearance of CASE it's even possible to survive an ammo hit... and I hope they figure out a good system for representing neurohelmet feedback.

#3 Yeach

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 10:39 PM

I wouldn't mind them bringing critical hits back;
Which brings me to the question if losing an arm with heatsinks in MW2 / MW3 ever affect the cooling rate?
From my experience of MW3 I would say no.

#4 TheRulesLawyer

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 11:04 PM

I'd love to see a full crit treatment.

#5 VYCanis

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 11:20 PM

I for one would love to see crits and ammo explosions make a come back.

However, the ammo explosion rules should probably get adjusted a bit for the sake of gameplay so that it simply doesn't feel like "BWOOP you suddenly, seemingly randomly died"

1. machine gun ammo shouldn't be the monster under your bed. i.e. how it possesses on the TT almost 4 times the explosive capacity of a ton of missiles. it should pop off for far less. enough to rip apart the inside of a torso , but not enough to obliterate a mech from one side to the other.

2. To prevent instant out of the nowhere death, perhaps have it where the ammo cookoff starts off slow and ramps up in intensity exponentially for as long is there is ammo to feed the flames or you mech is destroyed (whichever comes first), and during the first 2 or 3 seconds you can still dump the burning ammo before it gets any worse, suffering only minor to moderate internal damage. After that through, you can only eject or hope that there isn't much ammo left to explode, or rely on CASE to do its job

Edited by VYCanis, 15 November 2011 - 11:21 PM.


#6 Iron Horse

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 11:36 PM

View Postice trey, on 15 November 2011 - 10:19 PM, said:

The ammo explosions act as a very interesting equalizer in a battle, giving players a chance similar to a headshot, in which even a mighty Atlas or Orion can be felled with a single lucky shot. This is something that we saw back in Mechwarrior 2 for sure, and possibly in Mechwarrior 3 (I lost my disk years ago).

I seriously think that the Critical Hits system, as well as the Ammo Explosions and ammo dumping systems, should be reinstated in this game.

Great Points! I personally love the sim-rich elements of MW games in general, which has been slowly leeched out over the years. Also, interesting point about the fusion reactor "burping;" I'd never heard this before! MW3 did have ammo crits, and as Kudzu pointed out, you could add Cellular Ammunition Storage Equipment (C.A.S.E.) to your ammo reserve at a cost of 1/2 ton or so per ton of ammo. This caused the damage to be significantly reduced from ammo crits (around 1/10, but maybe someone with a BT rulebook can straighten me out on the exact reduction). The other interesting aspect of carrying lots of ammunition was that 'mechs running too hot ran a risk of the ammo to "cooking off" and exploding, meaning that you didn't even have to get hit to be killed!
Personally I hope they implement most of the sim controls from MW3: ammo dump, ejection, manual shutdown, etc. Which reminds me also of things that were never fully realized in MW3 like the Beagle Active Probe (BAP), and C3 Master/Slave Computers. On top of that I used to carry a flare for marking targets in most of my loadouts and was a gearhead when it came to electronics (Artemis IV for every missile pod I carried, ECM Jammers, etc.).

View PostYeach, on 15 November 2011 - 10:39 PM, said:

I wouldn't mind them bringing critical hits back;
Which brings me to the question if losing an arm with heatsinks in MW2 / MW3 ever affect the cooling rate?
From my experience of MW3 I would say no.

I'm not certain, but I can vouch for the fact that the cooling rate never seemed to get affected by damage in MW3.

#7 Alistair Steiner

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 11:55 PM

Hear hear! Love it! From the little time I played Neveron, I remember how exciting they made ammo-bin crits sound. I would love to see that in game. While the massive core explosion followed by the beautiful mushroom cloud they currently have in MWLL (which has a 10-20% chance, so that's better than MW4) is nice, I'll settle for the plasma "burp" if we get ammo crits. I would LOVE to crit a fully loaded Annihilator. But yeah, after MW3, you never saw CASE again. I'd love for ammo explosions to be an issue again, even as far as it being a possibility simply from overheating.

View PostKudzu, on 15 November 2011 - 10:35 PM, said:

and I hope they figure out a good system for representing neurohelmet feedback.

Aye, me too. Since the Gauss rifle has inert nickel-alloy slugs (said to "roll out of a breached ammo bin like so many metallic eggs"), it would avoid the ammo explosion, but destroying the weapon itself is said to cause horrible neural feedback. I imagine there could be significant vision distortion, even so far as causing the pilot to release the controls and hold his head, resulting in temporary loss of control of the 'Mech, and most likely causing a fall, since the neutral input to keep the 'Mech on it's big metal feet would be interrupted. Just a thought.

#8 Kurios

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 11:58 PM

CASE is usually destruction of the part containing the ammo, and usually any arm connected to said part... but it prevents the damage from traveling to the CT. No damage reduction though. And all the damage is applied to Internal Structure. And on amno cooking? One it starts. Your screwed. Though a second to two delay to eject makes sense. And minigun amno is pretty dangerous if you cook it. Think about it, thousands of high powered BBs flying around inside your unarmoured guts. and ripping and shredding it all. Including your reactor core. plus, Minigun amno is the highest damage amno ton for ton, if im thinking right. ( Not that it normally matters. your ****** either way usually. I think Ive only seen someone survive a amno crit once? And he only had one round left in it. )

#9 Kurios

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 12:00 AM

View PostAlistair Steiner, on 15 November 2011 - 11:55 PM, said:

Hear hear! Love it! From the little time I played Neveron, I remember how exciting they made ammo-bin crits sound. I would love to see that in game. While the massive core explosion followed by the beautiful mushroom cloud they currently have in MWLL (which has a 10-20% chance, so that's better than MW4) is nice, I'll settle for the plasma "burp" if we get ammo crits. I would LOVE to crit a fully loaded Annihilator. But yeah, after MW3, you never saw CASE again. I'd love for ammo explosions to be an issue again, even as far as it being a possibility simply from overheating.


Aye, me too. Since the Gauss rifle has inert nickel-alloy slugs (said to "roll out of a breached ammo bin like so many metallic eggs"), it would avoid the ammo explosion, but destroying the weapon itself is said to cause horrible neural feedback. I imagine there could be significant vision distortion, even so far as causing the pilot to release the controls and hold his head, resulting in temporary loss of control of the 'Mech, and most likely causing a fall, since the neutral input to keep the 'Mech on it's big metal feet would be interrupted. Just a thought.




Quote

A critical hit on the gauss rifle itself destroys the capacitors
that power the weapon, causing a catastrophic discharge
of the capacitor’s stored energy with results identical to an
ammunition explosion. If a gauss rifle takes a critical hit, treat
the result as a 20-point ammunition explosion in the location
containing the rifle.
Total Warfare. Page 136. Just cause I had it open anyways to double check CASE...

Edited by Kurios, 16 November 2011 - 12:01 AM.


#10 ice trey

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 12:05 AM

View PostYeach, on 15 November 2011 - 10:39 PM, said:

I wouldn't mind them bringing critical hits back;
Which brings me to the question if losing an arm with heatsinks in MW2 / MW3 ever affect the cooling rate?
From my experience of MW3 I would say no.

If we're going with the Tabletop as the starting point, it should. Of course, since a large portion of heat sinks are automatically built into the engine area (either based on 'mech tonnage or engine size. I'm not sure, as I tend to stick to existing designs in my tabletop games for added immersion), only a few of your heat sinks need to be placed throughout the 'mech. Losing one or two heatsinks in the arms shouldn't slow your 'mech down too badly.

It would be a much bigger detriment to have engine hits, which leak heat into the 'mech. If you've got the minimum 10 standard-type heat sinks, that can be a huge detriment. Of course, no matter what kind of 'mech you're in, three engine hits (Or a cored side torso on an Inner Sphere 'mech with an XL engine) means automatic death, but not a dramatic explosion so much as slumping over with a smoldering chest.

#11 Kudzu

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 12:09 AM

IS CASE weighs 1 ton (I think, been awhile since I fooled around with it) and can only be mounted in the side torsos. It protects you from having an ammo explosion core your mech-- basically it channels the force of the explosion out the rear torso. Very handy on non-XL engine mechs, not so great on designs with XL (as it still causes 3 engine hits).

Clan CASE is free and can be mounted anywhere and confines the explosion to the location.

#12 ice trey

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 12:16 AM

View PostVYCanis, on 15 November 2011 - 11:20 PM, said:

I for one would love to see crits and ammo explosions make a come back.

However, the ammo explosion rules should probably get adjusted a bit for the sake of gameplay so that it simply doesn't feel like "BWOOP you suddenly, seemingly randomly died"

1. machine gun ammo shouldn't be the monster under your bed. i.e. how it possesses on the TT almost 4 times the explosive capacity of a ton of missiles. it should pop off for far less. enough to rip apart the inside of a torso , but not enough to obliterate a mech from one side to the other.

2. To prevent instant out of the nowhere death, perhaps have it where the ammo cookoff starts off slow and ramps up in intensity exponentially for as long is there is ammo to feed the flames or you mech is destroyed (whichever comes first), and during the first 2 or 3 seconds you can still dump the burning ammo before it gets any worse, suffering only minor to moderate internal damage. After that through, you can only eject or hope that there isn't much ammo left to explode, or rely on CASE to do its job


Hmm. Personally I think that the way that stuff is right now is just fine, but within context.

For one, each "Turn" in battletech is 10 seconds. This gives ample time for a computer to give a sort of "AMMO EXPLOSION DETECTED! EJECTING" as you hear the mech's innards popping at an accelerating rate like popcorn in a microwave, until a dramatic explosion either rips it apart completely, or in smaller detonations that won't kill the 'mech outright, make visible bursts of light through the armor plate. So long as the whole ammo explosion is done in... say... five seconds or less, it works. In the end, it's supposed to be just an abrupt end (and even more dramatic) than a head-shot; either way, it's instant death. Likewise, it would be a great threat for players who try to ride the heat curve too high, especially if Piranha doesn't put enough emphasis on the control-effects of too much heat.

However, the onus is still on the player to recognize that "Hey, my 'mech is in terrible condition" or "I'm getting pummeled by a thousand paper-cuts", and that they should dump their ammo so that they DON'T explode. So long as this is a clearly stated fact, I don't think that it should be a problem. The other option the player should have is turning auto-eject on or off. That way, a player with only a few rounds in the bin can take the internal damage and keep on going, without just automatically being shot out of their 'mech after their bin of AC5 ammo with only one shot left cooks off.

As for the Machinegun ammo issue. I personally think that a machine guns' standard "Round" is more of a short burst than a spray & pray attack. I think the best way to address the issue of huge ammo bins is the tacops/Maxtech rules for machine guns in which you can hold down the trigger to fire a greater number of bullets at the cost of actually making heat. Of course, I think that diminished accuracy would also be a good idea for MGs that are not in burst fire, making it work sort of like a Rotary AC2 with very short range and without the ability to unjam, making it very much like the MGs we saw in the 2009 Mechwarrior 3015 trailer. It would certainly give them a new lease on life, considering that there's no infantry in this game (To our knowledge)

Edited by ice trey, 16 November 2011 - 12:20 AM.


#13 Chembot

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 01:09 AM

After a player ejects their ammo, (which isn't cooking off) it could drop directly behind the mech as metal magazine crate prop. This prop would of course be explosive! Now players can leave a nice little surprise for the unsuspecting enemy by simply firing on the prop to set it off. Autocannon ammo bins would act like a big frag grenade, missile ammo bins would explode with snaking missles in all directions and machine gun would go off like fire crackers.
You could also walk into an ammo bin which would effectively kick the prop, exploding on landing!
Imagine your AC 10 has taken a critical hit, & is no longer in play. You could then eject your AC 10 ammo bin, walk backwards around it then full throttle into the thing, booting it into the enemy who disabled your AC 10! Whoomp!

#14 VYCanis

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 03:32 AM

Well, on the machinegun ammo...thing. Thing is yeah, if it catches fire, its should do a lot of damage. But mg bullets are mostly metal casing by weight. The only reason they do so much damage when they pop is by an artifact of the rules. They should be doing considerably less than say, an equal weight in missiles or ac shells, which by weight would contain a much larger amount of explosives.

Its the difference between having a ton of firecrackers sitting on a pallet, and having that same weight in barrels of gunpowder on said pallet. Which will have more boom?

The reason i advocate having a few seconds to clear burning ammo out while its still exploding, is that its really not all that fun to be in the middile of a fight where everything seems normal, and suddenly boom, your mech blows up without warning, or you are suddenly ejecting cause some ammo sploded. Its a rude, abrupt ending a player has no control over that can essentially happen at almost any time.

Having 2 maybe 3 seconds to narrowly avoid death however, and taking some damage in the process for not having the foresight to dump sooner, could be a more fun compromise. It would also create a neat visual of a mech ejecting a burning box of ammo out its back, which explodes seconds later.

Cause remember unlike the tabletop where 30 seconds of game time can take half an hour to resolve, and an ammo explosion is something that you can see coming as your armor thins out on your record sheet, and you start taking gambles over whether to dump, or simply keep expending ammo. In real time you don't normally have that luxury, especially during a brawl. Where an ammo crit can seemingly come out of nowhere.

I still want them to be an ever present threat, just something that the player has a degree of damage control over if they are fast enough.

#15 Captain Hat

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 03:57 AM



This is what it looks like when a tank catches fire inside following a penetrating hit from an ATGM.

Note that it doesn't just instantly go up in smoke- the fire burns the tank out over a period of time. I think this jibes quite well with the "slow start" burn idea.

I also think that energy weapons should explode when critted to varying degrees because (much like the Gauss rifle) they all include high-energy capacitors to charge their "shots" at the very least, maybe not as much as the GR but certainly some- it also helps to keep them balanced gameplay-wise. Big, high-energy guns like PPCs I can imagine being particularly volatile.

This would be pretty cool to see :)

#16 Havoc2

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 05:00 AM

I like the idea but I don't think that having a munition explosion should destroy your 'Mech or even significantly cripple it.

I'd say that if your ammunition takes a hit and explodes, it destroys the nearest components and (obviously) the weapon that it feeds.

This would aid in the "magical ammunition supply" problem of storing 2 tons of LRM ammo in your leg for the launcher on your shoulder.

#17 Kurios

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 06:46 AM

View PostVYCanis, on 16 November 2011 - 03:32 AM, said:

Well, on the machinegun ammo...thing. Thing is yeah, if it catches fire, its should do a lot of damage. But mg bullets are mostly metal casing by weight. The only reason they do so much damage when they pop is by an artifact of the rules. They should be doing considerably less than say, an equal weight in missiles or ac shells, which by weight would contain a much larger amount of explosives.

Its the difference between having a ton of firecrackers sitting on a pallet, and having that same weight in barrels of gunpowder on said pallet. Which will have more boom?

The reason i advocate having a few seconds to clear burning ammo out while its still exploding, is that its really not all that fun to be in the middile of a fight where everything seems normal, and suddenly boom, your mech blows up without warning, or you are suddenly ejecting cause some ammo sploded. Its a rude, abrupt ending a player has no control over that can essentially happen at almost any time.

Having 2 maybe 3 seconds to narrowly avoid death however, and taking some damage in the process for not having the foresight to dump sooner, could be a more fun compromise. It would also create a neat visual of a mech ejecting a burning box of ammo out its back, which explodes seconds later.

Cause remember unlike the tabletop where 30 seconds of game time can take half an hour to resolve, and an ammo explosion is something that you can see coming as your armor thins out on your record sheet, and you start taking gambles over whether to dump, or simply keep expending ammo. In real time you don't normally have that luxury, especially during a brawl. Where an ammo crit can seemingly come out of nowhere.

I still want them to be an ever present threat, just something that the player has a degree of damage control over if they are fast enough.


Ban head-shots too... as killing off the pilot obviously makes the game no fun. Cant have any one hit kills. :)

#18 VYCanis

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 09:27 AM

View PostKurios, on 16 November 2011 - 06:46 AM, said:

Ban head-shots too... as killing off the pilot obviously makes the game no fun. Cant have any one hit kills. :)



how many times do you normally go down to a headshot in a MW game compared to how many times do you lose a side torso? Cause in my experience side torsos get lost at a ridiculous rate in MW games. Hell, if side torso destruction was modeled 100% according to TT rules no sane player would use XLs at all.

#19 Kurios

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 11:33 AM

Well good thing XLs are not available for IS in 3049... And head-shots happen. Expecially if someone bothers to code the cockpit critical... Or life support... So last time I checked, Side torso doesnt matter at this stage...

#20 VYCanis

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 12:07 PM

Headshots aren't common though, They are difficult to pull off.

side torsos however are relatively easy. and when its the most likely place to stuff ammo, and If ammo was an instant death sentence once touched off with no player controlled means of mitigating that then you are going to have a much bigger problem than legging used to be on your hands,

It doesn't even matter what aiming system you use. Unless players are literally aiming forward and somehow shooting 20 degrees off the mark, most shots will hit roughly around the torso of an opponent. L/R torsos are the weaker than CT. They get cored out regularly in any MW game. They are most likely the most destroyed location in the history of mech locations. Trust me on this, you'll want a 3 second grace period to not blow up if there is ammo in there.





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