3 replies to this topic

[CakeMixer]

After trying to to use narc and looking into how it works, I feel it's safe to say it sucks too much to run in its current implementation. While the effect when landed can be insanely powerful, the fact that its so hard to even land it in the first place nearly nullifies the benefits. I have no idea if these proposed changes will be optimal or even doable, but it'd be nice to see narcs become a viable choice.

1. Make narcs lock-on:

The dumbfire nature of narcs can be somewhat mitigated by piloting a light mech that can get within 300m or less to the enemy, but this is far from good. First, it puts a (presumably) lightly armed and armored mech in a place where it never wanted to be in the first place. Second, it's hard to land it on anything moving faster than 64 kph and smaller than the average heavy, and can even miss these mechs sometimes due to the agility of some chassis. If the system is to even be considered seriously, this is a big feature to make it happen.

2. Double (or atleast increase) the ammo per ton:

With the tonnage (and sometimes slot) investment of narcs being kind of large for how good they are, an ammo increase of some kind is definitely needed. This will probably require some more fine tuning than what's stated here but the tonnage investment for lighter mechs is extremely felt and should atleast be mitigated somewhat beyond quirk balancing. It might also justify taking on heavier mechs that need a detection method or just want to guarantee having a narc on hand.

3. Allow breaking ECM better:

While this definitely goes against established lore, gameplay wise it really can hamstring the system (even though MWO already shirks some old lore). While iirc ECM can be broken on the carrier, not being able to break it on their teammates makes the system much clunkier and harder to capitalize on.

I couldn't find any info on this, but if narcs can be shot down by ams, it should require atleast 2 ams to shoot it down. A target with 1 ams shouldn't shut down the system on its own, especially considering that a sizable missile volley can already bypass it.

If this post gets any attention, i'll be updating it according to feedback and any other findings.

[martian]

CakeMixer, on 23 December 2021 - 12:26 AM, said:

After trying to to use narc ...

In what game mode have you tried it? Quick Play? Faction Play? Solaris 7?

CakeMixer, on 23 December 2021 - 12:26 AM, said:

,,, and looking into how it works, I feel it's safe to say it sucks too much to run in its current implementation. While the effect when landed can be insanely powerful, the fact that its so hard to even land it in the first place nearly nullifies the benefits. I have no idea if these proposed changes will be optimal or even doable, but it'd be nice to see narcs become a viable choice.

NARC is a viable choice - if you plan before you use it.

CakeMixer, on 23 December 2021 - 12:26 AM, said:

1. Make narcs lock-on:

The dumbfire nature of narcs can be somewhat mitigated by piloting a light mech that can get within 300m or less to the enemy, but this is far from good. First, it puts a (presumably) lightly armed and armored mech in a place where it never wanted to be in the first place.

Well-piloted light 'Mechs can get much closer than 300 m, stay there and fight there. For 'Mechs such Flea, Locust, Piranha or Commando this is practically the default combat mode.

Plus, the range of NARC Beacon is not 300 m, but it is 600 m. I would say that this is quite enough.

Some 'Mechs have NARC quirks, so it has even longer range.

CakeMixer, on 23 December 2021 - 12:26 AM, said:

Second, it's hard to land it on anything moving faster than 64 kph and smaller than the average heavy, and can even miss these mechs sometimes due to the agility of some chassis. If the system is to even be considered seriously, this is a big feature to make it happen.

NARC missile flies 500 m/s - it is as fast as MRMs and faster than SRMs. If you can hit with MRMs or SRMs, you can hit with NARC too.

NARC missile is even faster with appropriate quirks.

CakeMixer, on 23 December 2021 - 12:26 AM, said:

2. Double (or atleast increase) the ammo per ton:

With the tonnage (and sometimes slot) investment of narcs being kind of large for how good they are, an ammo increase of some kind is definitely needed. This will probably require some more fine tuning than what's stated here but the tonnage investment for lighter mechs is extremely felt and should atleast be mitigated somewhat beyond quirk balancing. It might also justify taking on heavier mechs that need a detection method or just want to guarantee having a narc on hand.

One ton of NARC ammo gives you 16 shots. This is quite enough.

The right quirks can increase the default amount.

You can even unlock Skill nodes to further increase the ammo capacity.

And of course, if you want even more ammo, just load another ton or a half-ton.

CakeMixer, on 23 December 2021 - 12:26 AM, said:

3. Allow breaking ECM better:

While this definitely goes against established lore, gameplay wise it really can hamstring the system (even though MWO already shirks some old lore). While iirc ECM can be broken on the carrier, not being able to break it on their teammates makes the system much clunkier and harder to capitalize on.

Guardian ECM suite has a limited range of 120 m. That means that unless enemy 'Mechs hug their ECM carrier, they are probably out of the ECM range.

In the Quick Play queue PUGs often run in all directions anyway.

CakeMixer, on 23 December 2021 - 12:26 AM, said:

I couldn't find any info on this, but if narcs can be shot down by ams, it should require atleast 2 ams to shoot it down. A target with 1 ams shouldn't shut down the system on its own, especially considering that a sizable missile volley can already bypass it.

And since the majority of MWO 'Mechs can mount only one AMS, in practical terms you want to deny single 'Mechs the protection against NARCs, right?

[CakeMixer]

<div>

Quote

<span style="background-color: rgb(25, 25, 25); color: rgb(149, 149, 149); font-family: HelveticaNeue-Light, &quot;Helvetica Neue Light&quot;, &quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, &quot;Lucida Grande&quot;, sans-serif;">In what game mode have you tried it? Quick Play? Faction Play? Solaris 7?</span>

</div>

At the time of writing this, only quickplay. Solaris I know won't work cause LRMs don't matter in it and streaks aren't good with narc. Faction could probably yield much better results but I haven't been able to find matches, let alone bring a narc mech with me.</div>

<div>

Quote

<span style="background-color: rgb(25, 25, 25); color: rgb(149, 149, 149); font-family: HelveticaNeue-Light, &quot;Helvetica Neue Light&quot;, &quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, &quot;Lucida Grande&quot;, sans-serif;">NARC is a viable choice - if you plan before you use it.</span>

I will admit I generalized this part a bit, but my main point is that only a select few mechs can even use it correctly. It's fine to have a niche for weapons but narcs niche is so small that it feels irrelevant in 95% of builds.

Quote

<span style="background-color: rgb(25, 25, 25); color: rgb(149, 149, 149); font-family: HelveticaNeue-Light, &quot;Helvetica Neue Light&quot;, &quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, &quot;Lucida Grande&quot;, sans-serif;">NARC missile flies 500 m/s - it is as fast as MRMs and faster than SRMs. If you can hit with MRMs or SRMs, you can hit with NARC too.</span></div>
<br style="color: rgb(149, 149, 149); font-family: HelveticaNeue-Light, &quot;Helvetica Neue Light&quot;, &quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, &quot;Lucida Grande&quot;, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(25, 25, 25);" />
<div><span style="background-color: rgb(25, 25, 25); color: rgb(149, 149, 149); font-family: HelveticaNeue-Light, &quot;Helvetica Neue Light&quot;, &quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, &quot;Lucida Grande&quot;, sans-serif;">NARC missile is even faster with appropriate quirks.</span>

While on paper this sounds good (along with the range mentioned above this), the paper functionality is much more different than the reality. This is why I mentioned a light mech at 300m being able to hit it consistently. A single, almost impossible to see projectile is much harder to land than a cluster of 6-10 or more missiles that can be afforded to miss. Narcs also have the crippling issue of a 7 second cooldown.

Quote

<span style="background-color: rgb(25, 25, 25); color: rgb(149, 149, 149); font-family: HelveticaNeue-Light, &quot;Helvetica Neue Light&quot;, &quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, &quot;Lucida Grande&quot;, sans-serif;">One ton of NARC ammo gives you 16 shots. This is quite enough.</span>

The point for this I was trying to make with this was to increase the flexibility of the system. It's enough to last you the entire match, but increasing the ammo count would mean you could take less tonnage and less potential slots on a larger mech. Alternatively, the weapon system itself could be trimmed down but idk if PGI would ever do that. I will probably revisit this point and put a hard value tho.</div>

Quote

<span style="background-color: rgb(25, 25, 25); color: rgb(149, 149, 149); font-family: HelveticaNeue-Light, &quot;Helvetica Neue Light&quot;, &quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, &quot;Lucida Grande&quot;, sans-serif;">Guardian ECM suite has a limited range of 120 m. That means that unless enemy 'Mechs hug their ECM carrier, they are probably out of the ECM range.</span></div>
<br style="color: rgb(149, 149, 149); font-family: HelveticaNeue-Light, &quot;Helvetica Neue Light&quot;, &quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, &quot;Lucida Grande&quot;, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(25, 25, 25);" />
<div><span style="background-color: rgb(25, 25, 25); color: rgb(149, 149, 149); font-family: HelveticaNeue-Light, &quot;Helvetica Neue Light&quot;, &quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, &quot;Lucida Grande&quot;, sans-serif;">In the Quick Play queue PUGs often run in all directions anyway.</span>

I can't vouch for every tier doing this, but most matches i've played has enough ecm carriers to consistently cover atleast a portion of the team for the majority of a brawl or shoot off. It isn't 100% but its enough to be noticable and affect the average performance. It also adds an unneeded layer of complexity and weakness.

Quote

<span style="background-color: rgb(25, 25, 25); color: rgb(149, 149, 149); font-family: HelveticaNeue-Light, &quot;Helvetica Neue Light&quot;, &quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, &quot;Lucida Grande&quot;, sans-serif;">And since the majority of MWO 'Mechs can mount only one AMS, in practical terms you want to deny single 'Mechs the protection against NARCs, right?</span>

The main issue with allowing a single ams to kill a narc is that it covers an entire sphere of area, meaning that it would prevent a narc in the entire area. Since the majority of mechs can carry 1 ams, that means that the majority of mechs can create this area. If the majority of mechs can do this, then the system can be countered by nearly any mech, probably unintentionally (on top of the fact it can already be countered by decent cover).

Edited by CakeMixer, 23 December 2021 - 07:19 PM.

[martian]

CakeMixer, on 23 December 2021 - 07:17 PM, said:

At the time of writing this, only quickplay. Solaris I know won't work cause LRMs don't matter in it and streaks aren't good with narc. Faction could probably yield much better results but I haven't been able to find matches, let alone bring a narc mech with me.

Now we are getting to the core of the problem: You have taken NARC - a weapon system designed with the cooperation between 'Mechs (including their builds) in mind - to the game mode where the players do not cooperate (unless they are a premade group). In the Quick Play you have no influence over who brings what and you do not know if there will be any friendly LRMs in the game. And of course, each solo player comes with a different tactics in mind.

CakeMixer, on 23 December 2021 - 07:17 PM, said:

I will admit I generalized this part a bit, but my main point is that only a select few mechs can even use it correctly. It's fine to have a niche for weapons but narcs niche is so small that it feels irrelevant in 95% of builds.

No, you are not right. Any MWO 'Mech with at least one missile hardpoint - unless that hardpoint is in the head section - can use NARC correctly. Hitting with NARC depends on the player's gunnery skill, not on the type of his 'Mech.

There is no such thing as the "correct use". If you narced enemy 'Mech when piloting the King Crab, then it was the correct use.

And of course, NARC is as relevant as the number of LRMs that your team has.

CakeMixer, on 23 December 2021 - 07:17 PM, said:

While on paper this sounds good (along with the range mentioned above this), the paper functionality is much more different than the reality. This is why I mentioned a light mech at 300m being able to hit it consistently.

Do not you think that perhaps some players with better gunnery skills can hit consistently on greater ranges?

CakeMixer, on 23 December 2021 - 07:17 PM, said:

A single, almost impossible to see projectile is much harder to land than a cluster of 6-10 or more missiles that can be afforded to miss.

1. The fact, that the enemy can not see the NARC Beacon, is actually a blessing, since he does not know where those NARCs are coming from.

2. What use would it be for you if NARC missile would be visible? You fire it and that is all: You could not correct its course, even if it would be visible.
NARC is no anti-tank guided missile such as TOW whose flight path can be corrected in flight.

3. The difference between missiles such as MRMs and NARC is that NARC has no spread. It flies where you fired it. If you misjudged your movement, terrain or your target's movement ... well, that is the problem of your gunnery skills.

CakeMixer, on 23 December 2021 - 07:17 PM, said:

Narcs also have the crippling issue of a 7 second cooldown.

Then pick up a 'Mech with cooldown quirks. And you can unlock cooldown skill nodes too.

CakeMixer, on 23 December 2021 - 07:17 PM, said:

The point for this I was trying to make with this was to increase the flexibility of the system. It's enough to last you the entire match, but increasing the ammo count would mean you could take less tonnage and less potential slots on a larger mech. Alternatively, the weapon system itself could be trimmed down but idk if PGI would ever do that. I will probably revisit this point and put a hard value tho.

Larger 'Mechs can afford to take the second ton of NARC ammo.

CakeMixer, on 23 December 2021 - 07:17 PM, said:

I can't vouch for every tier doing this, but most matches i've played has enough ecm carriers to consistently cover atleast a portion of the team for the majority of a brawl or shoot off. It isn't 100% but its enough to be noticable and affect the average performance. It also adds an unneeded layer of complexity and weakness.

It is called "balancing". The purpose is to ensure that other 'Mechs have some measure of protection. And of course, you can always target enemy 'Mechs that are far from enemy ECM carriers, exactly the same way you are picking up targets that are far from cover.

By the way, ECM used to have 180 m range. That range has been reduced to the current value to make the life easier for NARC users (among other things).

CakeMixer, on 23 December 2021 - 07:17 PM, said:

The main issue with allowing a single ams to kill a narc is that it covers an entire sphere of area, meaning that it would prevent a narc in the entire area. Since the majority of mechs can carry 1 ams, that means that the majority of mechs can create this area. If the majority of mechs can do this, then the system can be countered by nearly any mech, probably unintentionally (on top of the fact it can already be countered by decent cover).

1. Not every enemy 'Mech, that can carry AMS, actually carries AMS.

2. AMS can run out of ammo.

3. In typical QP games players often split up and run in all directions, thus that composite AMS cover is often a theoretical more than real thing.