141 replies to this topic

[Razimir]

Riptor, on 01 March 2014 - 09:30 PM, said:

Microtransactions my ass... i cant wrap my head around how people can spend four or five times the money on this half finished beta then they spend on tripple A titles.

Maybe because people play this game and not those triple A piece of craps. I have played close 280 hours of MWO and paid maybe 200 euro. That is worth for 4x triple AAA games, which you play 8 hours and never play them again. I think, my money was well spent.

-Razi

[Chemie]

I don't mind them charging for 1v1 or even 10v12 but 12v12 is how the game is supposed to be played...you should not be putting up pay walls to be able to play 12v12

(Yes, there is a free queue but it will be empty and unusable)

[Reitrix]

The ability to select team sizes anywhere from 1v1 to 12v12 and everything in between, kind of needs to be behind a paywall.

If you made that available to every player, You'd have some units setting up hundreds of 1v1 games per hour just to practice against certain builds, not to mention the people who like Leagues and Duels and whatnot.
Now, for every 1v1 game running, thats 22 players unable to utilize that server space to run a full game. Limited servers, PGI still has to pay for hosting those servers, maintaining those servers AND the electricity to run the servers. In a Free to Play game.

No, i actually agree with PGI on this one, that sort of thing should be behind a paywall. The trick is finding the correct pricing for each match.

It just occurred to me a method by which the "Pay per use" model could work really well. Charging a tiny amount of MC per "premium" option changed. As an example, lets say it costs 15 MC to change the team size, 5 MC to lock view modes and 5 MC to specify a map. 25 MC to run a fully custom game, You'd be able to run 50 fully custom games on 6 dollars, with possible discounts with premium Account status.
That would actually be fairly reasonable, in my opinion.

[Reitrix]

Chemie, on 02 March 2014 - 05:26 AM, said:

I don't mind them charging for 1v1 or even 10v12 but 12v12 is how the game is supposed to be played...you should not be putting up pay walls to be able to play 12v12

(Yes, there is a free queue but it will be empty and unusable)

Use Private Matching rather than the 12man public queue.
it would be VERY nice if they added in the ability to "search for open Lobbies" and to be able to join into those Private Matches without needing to directly know the Lobby creator.
That way, you could set up a partial 12, set it to Public, and random people can join in if they want. Also, please give us a global Chat Lobby so we can chat with every user online at once :3

[Davers]

Ordellus, on 01 March 2014 - 09:05 PM, said:

Don't forget: *Ability to set game mode, *Ability to select map

Add them all up and what do you get?

The features the community has wanted since day one, finally being made availiable..... for MORE money.

And no, when every single aspect of a game costs money...rage is completely justified.

I'm stunned that there are actually people supporting this amount of selling out.

The diagram clearly shows free private matches being able to select Game Mode. You can do it on a regular launch, I doubt they will take away what they have already given every player. There map still may be map voting. Just the Owner of the game won't be able to set the map. What is the problem with this?

Riptor, on 01 March 2014 - 09:30 PM, said:

Use their servers for your "own" game? What kinda BS logic is that?

It makes no difference if 24 people are random dropping or 24 people set up a game. There will be 24 people using the server anyways. And while you might set your own options for private matches you neither are using resources in terms of matchmaker or cause traffic by having to calculate rewards.

One of the reasons for having a Premium private match instead of playing a FREE private match is the ability to change group size. Want 4 on 4? Want 12v1? This is how you do it. So, it won't necessarily be 24 players in the match.

[kesmai]

Wut. I don´t get it. Where´s the source of the OP´s info?


And if the matchmaking won´t be implied for for all player having acces to all features of it, i´m thinking about canceling my clan-massakari package.

Edited by kesmai, 02 March 2014 - 08:50 AM.

[Ordellus]

Davers, on 02 March 2014 - 06:12 AM, said:

The diagram clearly shows free private matches being able to select Game Mode.

Not according to this post -> http://mwomercs.com/...28#entry3185728

"Premium Private Match behaves the same way as the Free Private Match with a few exceptions. These include:

• Ability to set game mode.
  
• Ability to select map.
  
• Ability to select view lock (1st person only, 3rd person only, both).
  
• Ability to select tonnage limits or remove tonnage limits completely (yes, actual tonnage limits).
  
• Ability to set match time."

kesmai, on 02 March 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

Wut. I don´t get it. Where´s the source of the OP´s info?

And if the matchmaking won´t be implied for for all player having acces to all features of it, i´m thinking about canceling my clan-massakari package.

I'm getting it from PGI. -> http://mwomercs.com/...28#entry3185728

illuzian, on 01 March 2014 - 09:31 PM, said:

They are giving you basic functionality and charging for a subset of features.

I stopped counting things like map veto as "enhanced functionality" in 2000 when it was basic functionality.

Edited by Ordellus, 02 March 2014 - 06:44 PM.

[Ordellus]

illuzian, on 01 March 2014 - 09:31 PM, said:

Source?

Seeing as I'm not a financial officer for PGI, I can only assume:

1) Free to play with microtransactions is the most profitable form of game to have been created to date.
2) Mechwarrior goes far beyond the normal free to play.

and then there are things like this -> http://www.ign.com/a...in-sales-so-far

and that's before the game even released.... not counting anything with MC....

So we can stop pretending like they "need the money to pay devs / run the game". That was taken care of a long time ago.

[DaZur]

Ordellus, on 02 March 2014 - 06:49 PM, said:

So we can stop pretending like they "need the money to pay devs / run the game". That was taken care of a long time ago.

If you think 5 milion is "a lot of money" to develop a game and maintain the operational costs of a hosting center, I don't know what to tell you...

[Savage Wolf]

They seem to have written some gibberish since the ability to set game mode is both a free option and a premium option. But I'm sure if we ask them they will clarify which it is.

Also if they are making money on this game, that is good. It's a business it's their purpose. And since that means you don't have to worry that the game will discontinue. How much more they earn is totally irrelevant to us players.
What matters is what they offer at what price. If you want it and the price is right, you can pay them. If they charge too much, then go somewhere else. That's all you need to worry about.

[PhoenixFire55]

Koniving, on 01 March 2014 - 03:50 PM, said:

The private matches give you NO income anyway. So how likely are you to use the free let alone the paid benefits? Private matches in general I think is for the youtubers, video makers, and 12 vs 12 crowd.

Private matches are more likely to be used by people who want to play with their freinds and THEIR team, without the need to rely on random PUGs on your side and the hope that this time matchmaker will actually fill your team with better random horribads than the other team.

[Ordellus]

DaZur, on 02 March 2014 - 10:36 PM, said:

If you think 5 milion is "a lot of money" to develop a game and maintain the operational costs of a hosting center, I don't know what to tell you...

If you think 5 million is even close to what they've actually made from the multiple "packs", mc sales, etc... I don't know what to tell you.

[Ordellus]

Savage Wolf, on 02 March 2014 - 11:51 PM, said:

They seem to have written some gibberish since the ability to set game mode is both a free option and a premium option. But I'm sure if we ask them they will clarify which it is.

Also if they are making money on this game, that is good. It's a business it's their purpose. And since that means you don't have to worry that the game will discontinue. How much more they earn is totally irrelevant to us players.
What matters is what they offer at what price. If you want it and the price is right, you can pay them. If they charge too much, then go somewhere else. That's all you need to worry about.

1) Oh it's good for them, and good for us (only in the sense that the game exists)
2) How much money they earn is most certainly not irrelevant to the players
3) What matters is that they produce a quality product in every way that they can
4) True, I don't have to buy it
5) Every single game that treats it's players like shit taking ATMs is just setting a precedent for the next money ***** company, so I think I'll go ahead and worry about douchey moves like this paving the future for other games
6) Maybe you (as a player, b/c you're obviously not just some suit trying to justify the way customers are treated) should think about the effect things like this will have on way other companies view those paying their bills

[Savage Wolf]

Ordellus, on 03 March 2014 - 01:38 AM, said:

1) Oh it's good for them, and good for us (only in the sense that the game exists)

Yep.

Ordellus, on 03 March 2014 - 01:38 AM, said:

2) How much money they earn is most certainly not irrelevant to the players

Why not? As long as their economy is healthy, it's all good. If they are showered in gold every day it still only means their economy is healthy to us players. What they can sell to what price is still the same.

Ordellus, on 03 March 2014 - 01:38 AM, said:

3) What matters is that they produce a quality product in every way that they can

...while this still in some way gives money in the bank.

Ordellus, on 03 March 2014 - 01:38 AM, said:

4) True, I don't have to buy it

Then what is the problem? If other games gives you better features for less money, then why are you still here?

Ordellus, on 03 March 2014 - 01:38 AM, said:

5) Every single game that treats it's players like shit taking ATMs is just setting a precedent for the next money ***** company, so I think I'll go ahead and worry about douchey moves like this paving the future for other games

I totally agree with you. That is why we should fight the tendencies of P2W games for example. But what does this have to do with a game that lets you play for free on equal terms with other paying customers?

Ordellus, on 03 March 2014 - 01:38 AM, said:

6) Maybe you (as a player, b/c you're obviously not just some suit trying to justify the way customers are treated) should think about the effect things like this will have on way other companies view those paying their bills

That is exactly what I'm doing. And while there are those that do better than PGI, they are still doing good.

Also I believe that the amount of money they will earn on this will be minimal if any considering that this be a feature few actually needs and among those that do, only one needs premium. And that is money that will be used to pay expenses for extra servers.

[Craig Steele]

I am confused.

How can so many people have such strong views on how much money PGI is or isn't making that they espouse the venom and rhetoric I see in this thread without a single basis for their opinion?

Has PGI put it's P&L and B/Sheet up on the net or something. Cause I'd like to see it and form my own view.

On the other hand, if we do not have any facts what are we talking about? Our individual emotional responses to an external stimuli?

Personally I'd be surprised if PGI (being governed by the Canadian Corporations Act) is anything more or anything less than a good corporate citizen.

It charges what it believes to be a fair amount for its product and lets its customers decide what they want to buy. They have shown some willingness to discount prices to promote certain sales and they have listened to feedback from their customers about some pricing (Gold = Masakari pack after community calls).

They provide exactly what they advertise, a Free to Play mech combat game (albeit they have expressed a desire to expand the current offering significantly in the form of CW amongst other things) and allow those who wish to access cosmetic items such as new mechs the option to do so with $$.

Do some of us want more stuff for free, sure. I want a Ferrari too.

The salesman at Ferrari was very nice, took me for a test drive too. He said I could buy one if I had $300k.

I don't have that much, but it's not Ferrari's fault.

[DaZur]

Ordellus, on 03 March 2014 - 01:33 AM, said:

If you think 5 million is even close to what they've actually made from the multiple "packs", mc sales, etc... I don't know what to tell you.

So what exactly are you inferring... That PGI/IGP has made "enough money" and should now be a non-profit entity?

I know it's fun to wax poetically that PGI would only have make enough money to squeak by but the reality is MW:O is a product and that product is expected to generate profit... be it "just enough" or "gratuitous amounts"...

When profit is the end result there is no such thing as "enough"... That is unless you subscribe to the socialist premise of corporate greed.

[Ngamok]

FactorlanP, on 01 March 2014 - 06:23 PM, said:

Needing a Premium account for some things doesn't bother me...

Now the whole "Pay Per Use" thing they mentioned is probably going to be a deal breaker for me.

They said it's a long way off to going that way. I have 6 months of premium banked atm. So I can host for at least 6 months.

[Daggett]

Ordellus, on 01 March 2014 - 03:44 PM, said:

Instead of simply charging a subscription and actually having to make a game, they'll make pieces of a game and charge you every time you want to use any of the pieces

The subscription model is dying. A lot MMOs like Tera, Aion or even Star Wars have switched to the F2P model because they constantly need to get new players and can't afford to loose most of them because of an initial pay-barrier. Some games like EVE and WOW can still afford to hold on to the subscription model, but i would not wonder if they will switch too someday.

I doubt that subscription would work for MWO because of it's niche audience, and i can imagine that even Elder Scrolls Online will switch to a F2P model when the initial hype is gone and player numbers are declining.

Ordellus, on 02 March 2014 - 06:49 PM, said:

Mechwarrior goes far beyond the normal free to play.

and then there are things like this -> http://www.ign.com/a...in-sales-so-far

and that's before the game even released.... not counting anything with MC....

So we can stop pretending like they "need the money to pay devs / run the game". That was taken care of a long time ago.

First, MWO does not go 'far beyond' normal F2P. It's one of the few very fair F2P games which can be actually played well without paying money. Try WoT where you need years to grind a Tier X tank without premium, or the Dungeon Keeper mobile game.
Or Candy Crush Saga which uses mean psychological tricks to milk players (with a match-3 game!) making it one of the best selling F2P games ever.

Sure there are F2P games which are even more fair like LOL. But the LOL monetization concept only relies on quantity because their conversion rate (the number of players which are actually paying) is really bad. Without those millions of players LOL would not be profitable in it's current form.


Second, have you ever calculated how much a dev team costs?
They have about 45 people in the core team fully working on MWO. Even if you would only pay them a lousy 30K per year, this would add up to a whopping 1.35 million each year. You can easily increase this annual cost to 2-3 millions if you give em a suitable salary and add the cost for their working space (office rent, hardware, software licenses, ect). Together with server costs, support, Cryengine + Mechwarrior licenses, marketing and the like, most of that 5 millions are already used up for sure.

So to keep this game alive, they need to make several millions each year out of a quite limited player-base. They need to do sales and implement new monetization stuff regularly just to survive. And that's okay as long as the game keeps being well playable for free players. And by being able to easily afford a new mech every 1-3 weeks (depending on class) of casual play without premium i see no problem here.

The only real problem is that the extension of the game currently takes too long and only a few patches are really interesting in terms of features. But there are a lot of other possible reasons for this than milking us. A bad code-base for instance can easily increase development time up to 300% for some features until it has been re-factored like MWO did with UI2.0.

As said several times, if i would want to make a lot of money and milk players, a complex niche game would be my last choice to do so. A simple mass-appealing game like Angry Birds, Candy Crush Saga or even Flappy Birds will always make much more money than MWO. For the money it costs to create MWO i could develop dozens of well-polished casual games from which only one needs to get mildly successful to grant me a nice return of investment. So why would anyone wants to create a mech game when there is no substantial love for the theme involved?

Edited by Daggett, 03 March 2014 - 12:40 PM.

[AkilaX]

I just wanna say OP, I had a rage like that once with Sony Online Entertainment, and it's not going to get any better. As long as people are willing to pay for half cooked product, there will be someone filling their pockets. The idea of "quality over quantity" has been thrown out the window.

The thing is, some of the PGI employees might read this, but not the ones that can or have the will do anything about it. Thus nothing will change.

I share your sentiment. However, arguing with faceless forum posters will only raise your blood pressure. If you have the means I suggest you go straight to the source; the big cheese of these companies. But even that might be more of a hassle than it's worth.

When all is said and done, as far as I'm concerned, I will only spend what I estimate the games value is to me. $50 is about all I will invest in MWO unless they take another route. Which is unlikely as long as people will pay for whatever they cook up be it garbage or not.
By "they" I mean ALL current and future game developing and producing companies. Not just PGI...

I weep for the day they charge us real cash for the in game ammunition...oh wait...World of Tanks did that...damn.

Edited by AkilaX, 03 March 2014 - 01:23 PM.

[Domoneky]