174 replies to this topic

[Varent]

Kaeb Odellas, on 05 March 2014 - 08:34 PM, said:

Man, wouldn't that be something. Land a shot at a bad angle and it just deflects off the armor. I'd play it.

video game physics tend to be a lot more popular then real life physics. They have tried real life physics in many many shooting games. They never sell well.

[YueFei]

Varent, on 05 March 2014 - 08:04 PM, said:

you know, some of us never complained and have been simply sitting here moving from one meta to the next wondering when you people will realize its just going to be one meta everyone uses. That is the stages of shooters. There is always one dominant meta. Cryng for balance will only change the meta and nerf most things overall. The key is not nerfing or buffing, but instead diversifying and giving weapons clear advantages in different scenarios so that every weapon is useful when used properly.

Not necessarily.

Rock/Paper/Scissors has no dominant "meta" move choice. All 3 of them are equally valid, depending on your opponent's tendencies.

Alot of top fighting game players are actually very very good at Rock/Paper/Scissors.

Anyways, it is absolutely false that there must always be a dominant meta. The key to balance is not to try to balance Yin vs Yang. That's a never-ending struggle that is near impossible to achieve. The key is to make sure there are at least 3 choices, each of which has the advantage over 1 of the others.

MWO can revolve around a Sniper/Brawler/Indirect-Fire triangle. From there, we can arrange them any way we like. But that alone will squash any possibility of a single dominant tactic forming.

Edited by YueFei, 05 March 2014 - 10:59 PM.

[Varent]

YueFei, on 05 March 2014 - 10:59 PM, said:

Not necessarily.

Rock/Paper/Scissors has no dominant "meta" move choice. All 3 of them are equally valid, depending on your opponent's tendencies.

Alot of top fighting game players are actually very very good at Rock/Paper/Scissors.

Anyways, it is absolutely false that there must always be a dominant meta. The key to balance is not to try to balance Yin vs Yang. That's a never-ending struggle that is near impossible to achieve. The key is to make sure there are at least 3 choices, each of which has the advantage over 1 of the others.

MWO can revolve around a Sniper/Brawler/Indirect-Fire triangle. From there, we can arrange them any way we like. But that alone will squash any possibility of a single dominant tactic forming.

I agree. That said even out of those there will always be a dominant meta. You will have it close and you will usually have out of the box thinkers that will punish the meta players. And even games will be close. But there will always be a dominant meta. Every FPS and competitive game always boils down to it. That said im a huge supporter of the rock paper scissors and believe in it. I think they should focus on making weapons useful in different roles and focus less on individual balance as upposed to one another.

[YueFei]

Varent, on 05 March 2014 - 11:06 PM, said:

I agree. That said even out of those there will always be a dominant meta. You will have it close and you will usually have out of the box thinkers that will punish the meta players. And even games will be close. But there will always be a dominant meta. Every FPS and competitive game always boils down to it. That said im a huge supporter of the rock paper scissors and believe in it. I think they should focus on making weapons useful in different roles and focus less on individual balance as upposed to one another.

Yep! There's no need to make it so that all the weapons are balanced against each other. Or even to make mechs balanced against each other. We just need to make it so different mechs / weapons are strong in some situations but weak in others. Significant strengths in one area must be offset by significant weaknesses in other areas.

I am just a mediocre player, so I will typically refrain from solidly concluding that something is underpowered or overpowered.

But what I will say is that if a particular tactic is so strong that even the top players cannot figure out a way to counter it even after months of experimentation (other than using the same tactic and executing it better), then that particular tactic is probably broken, and the developers need to put in additional game mechanics to make it possible to counter that tactic.

Edited by YueFei, 06 March 2014 - 12:42 AM.

[Goosfraba]

CygnusX7, on 03 March 2014 - 07:02 AM, said:

I'm sure it was fun for those involved but to watch that video this game has become rather gay.

[Karl Streiger]

YueFei, on 06 March 2014 - 12:42 AM, said:

But what I will say is that if a particular tactic is so strong that even the top players cannot figure out a way to counter it even after months of experimentation (other than using the same tactic and executing it better), then that particular tactic is probably broken, and the developers need to put in additional game mechanics to make it possible to counter that tactic.

What are you talking off - the choice of Mechs and Loadout + the choice of position shouldn't even be called tactic... its a kind of but on a really low level.

I also agree with the consence that - weapons shouldn't be made equal - they should have a complete different feeling - and reason to equip.
I made this suggestion a while back:
instead of MLAS and LLAS (or all ACs) behave similar - but with different values - they should behave completely different:

for example - long beam duration but much more damage output for the Large Laser - but for the cost of rate of fire - while the MLAS beam is shorter with less damage but the cylce time is high:

so you have a weapon that has more DPS but lower alpha strike potential - and you have a weapon with lower DPS and high alpha strike potential...

same should be used for ACs. (AC2 - alpha, AC 5 dps, AC 10 alpha, AC 20 dps or vice versa)

[Joseph Mallan]

wanderer, on 05 March 2014 - 06:54 PM, said:

You're right. We should make all weapons full damage to a single location.

What, you don't want Core-A-Warrior Online? Cause when LRMs did it, we screamed LURMGEDDON and changed the weapon to encourage more spread! When lasers were put in, it was made "burn" mechanics so they WOULDN'T deliver full damage to a single location.

Pinpoint, frontloaded damage massively reduces TTK, and that's why the meta strongly favors ballistic (+ PPC to take advantage of what cooling the DHS can spare) weaponry and tactics that minimize exposure to same.

That's the true problem. More than poptarting or jumpjets or even flipping ghost heat, and I loathe ghost heat.

For the record LRMs are supposed to spread damage, Lasers are supposed to be well Laser Accurate. Energy weapons are used as a skillful dueling weapon, not our slashing weapon. SO If you want FLD on energy weapons I am good with it. Just remove Convergence and all will be fine.

[wanderer]

Quote

Cryng for balance will only change the meta and nerf most things overall

You're right. We should simply triple AC damage and be done with it. All hail the Dakka.

To me, it's not so much a matter of "nerf" as it is "fix".

Removing splash from SRMs when a single salvo would obliterate a light for damage far in excess of it's stated values was a fix. Giving it proper hit detection would also be a fix.

Changing the AC/PPC's ability to instantly deliver it's full damage to a single location so it's damage dealing matches up with nearly every other weapon in the game is a fix. I don't want it to deal less damage. I want the AC to stop blowing things up in a greatly faster fashion than everything else as I saw through people with a triple-AC/5 that makes lasers look like flashlights and a missile salvo a handful of rocks tossed against a wall by comparison.

It's not just "the meta". It's an outright broken damaging model.

Either that, or we can put the old LRM clustering back, revert lasers to the oldschool all-to-one model,and everyone can kill each other equally well, so that TTK isn't measurably superior with a single weapon type vs. the others.

[Joseph Mallan]

Wanderer what needs fixed is Convergence. 30 damage isn't a thing if it isn't artificially ace sniper accurate.

[Blood Rose]

I have only one Mech with JJ's, my Spider in an Urbanmech configuration.
I dont poptart. Infact, i do really well. Provided im not suffering lag that is...

Actually, i dont see Poptarts at all. Or Boomjagers for that matter. I guess im either at a high level where people have discovered the inherrent weakness in those designs and moved on... Or im stuck at a low level where noobs have yet to discover these builds
YMMV

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 March 2014 - 04:18 AM, said:

Wanderer what needs fixed is Convergence. 30 damage isn't a thing if it isn't artificially ace sniper accurate.

Problem. PGI can't change convergence. It will break hit detection.

Unless they've come up with a fix since Paul explicitly said he can't fix it.

So next best thing has to be enacted. Which is potentially making all weapons spread damage, and I still think the heat system needs to be looked at to discourage "ALL ALPHA, ALL THE TIME" game play, while encouraging chain fire.

Blood Rose, on 06 March 2014 - 04:26 AM, said:

I have only one Mech with JJ's, my Spider in an Urbanmech configuration.
I dont poptart. Infact, i do really well. Provided im not suffering lag that is...

Actually, i dont see Poptarts at all. Or Boomjagers for that matter. I guess im either at a high level where people have discovered the inherrent weakness in those designs and moved on... Or im stuck at a low level where noobs have yet to discover these builds
YMMV

Gonna be option 2, no offense.

When I group with really good players, and ELO shoots through the roof, I see a lot more Meta.

When I'm just by myself, I tend to see more variety.

[CeeKay Boques]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 March 2014 - 04:18 AM, said:

Wanderer what needs fixed is Convergence. 30 damage isn't a thing if it isn't artificially ace sniper accurate.

Take away aiming and you might as well take away the "Head Arm Torso Leg" designations and just have a nice health bar that lets you know you got rounds on target.

[Joseph Mallan]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 06 March 2014 - 06:01 AM, said:

Problem. PGI can't change convergence. It will break hit detection.

Unless they've come up with a fix since Paul explicitly said he can't fix it.

So next best thing has to be enacted. Which is potentially making all weapons spread damage, and I still think the heat system needs to be looked at to discourage "ALL ALPHA, ALL THE TIME" game play, while encouraging chain fire.

Well if Paul CAN'T fix it, maybe they need to find a person who can get the job done right.

As for Alpha all the time, That is how I built my Mechs for decades. There is nothing wrong with building a Mech that CAN safely fire all its weapons.

[Joseph Mallan]

Technoviking, on 06 March 2014 - 06:10 AM, said:

Take away aiming and you might as well take away the "Head Arm Torso Leg" designations and just have a nice health bar that lets you know you got rounds on target.

I didn't say take away aiming I said fix convergence. Fire one Weapon that should hit where you are aiming (most the time) Fire two weapons an you should not always hit the exact same spot with both. ire more and the ability to hit should get kinda shaky. I still have not seen a Pin Point Naval Broadside. Devastating, You Betcha, But 14 guns, all hitting the same 2 meter target? Don't see it.

[Karl Streiger]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 March 2014 - 06:16 AM, said:

I didn't say take away aiming I said fix convergence. Fire one Weapon that should hit where you are aiming (most the time) Fire two weapons an you should not always hit the exact same spot with both. ire more and the ability to hit should get kinda shaky. I still have not seen a Pin Point Naval Broadside. Devastating, You Betcha, But 14 guns, all hitting the same 2 meter target? Don't see it.

exactly this:
hell i don't even need a weapon that is adjusted to hit the bullseye when fired allone - for acceptable performance all i need is the knowlege that the weapon in the left arm will hit the 8 tripple ring, the weapon in the right arm... the 10 tripple ring, the cannon at the hip of my atlas may hit shortly outside the bull...maybe a 17....

That means i can spread some damage... when alpha firing - or I (and not some "logical" modern targeting computer - because I'm allready the targeting computer of my Mech) adjust fire between all shots....

... writen in a other part:
i don't think that on the long run it was a good idea to understand balancing as an attemp to make all long range weapon behave similar...and short range weapons behave equal but with shorter range and more damage....You should never been able to compare a AC 5 with a PPC because both are so complete different in usage - average target and damage.

In my vision i see the AC 5 more as a fast marksman rifle - while the PPC is nothing short of a grenade launcher or RPG - maybe with the same range - but while the AC 5 is precise for low damage - the PPC is a brutal weapon that deals splash damage that rip a gigantic hole into the enemy.... and of course there should be synergy effects when combining both - >
after all that would be another kind of meta: constant AC pling pling damage - with short devasting blows of a PPC - but they should never ever have same v0, same range and the same kind of applied damage

Edited by Karl Streiger, 06 March 2014 - 06:52 AM.

[CeeKay Boques]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 March 2014 - 06:16 AM, said:

I didn't say take away aiming I said fix convergence. Fire one Weapon that should hit where you are aiming (most the time) Fire two weapons an you should not always hit the exact same spot with both. ire more and the ability to hit should get kinda shaky. I still have not seen a Pin Point Naval Broadside. Devastating, You Betcha, But 14 guns, all hitting the same 2 meter target? Don't see it.

Alright. While I can see Gimbals +Targeting computer working well, gimbals working perfectly at 70 KPH on a bouncing mech... I could see adjustments there. There's a camp that wants to remove targeting (they just don't know that's what they're asking for) If convergence were a setting thing, where I could adjust my range with a dial (per weapon slot???), that would add to the math and simmy intelligence calculations that would add to the games difficulty, sim nature (and to me, fun). I could get on board with that.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 March 2014 - 06:13 AM, said:

Well if Paul CAN'T fix it, maybe they need to find a person who can get the job done right.

As for Alpha all the time, That is how I built my Mechs for decades. There is nothing wrong with building a Mech that CAN safely fire all its weapons.

No complaints with replacing Paul.

The problem is with our heat system, you put 2 PPC and 2 AC/5's and you can fire repeatedly over and over without worrying about overheating before your potential target is dead and buried due to the perfect convergence aspects.

It's not the same as the alpha you are talking about which includes 5 different varieties of weapon. Which..I'm ok with to an extent, but it still shouldn't be something you can do adnauseum.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 06 March 2014 - 07:55 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 06 March 2014 - 07:41 AM, said:

No complaints with replacing Paul.

The problem is with our heat system, you put 2 PPC and 2 AC/5's and you can fire repeatedly over and over without working about overheating before your potential target is dead and buried due to the perfect convergence aspects.

It's not the same as the alpha you are talking about which includes 5 different varieties of weapon. Which..I'm ok with to an extent, but it still shouldn't be something you can do adnauseum.

We need something in between the two Alphas...

Oh and i was kinda talking about my Stone Rhino from TT.
2x CERPPC
3X Gauss

75 Point alpha x3 then a 60 point Alpha... All game long!

[SubXulu]

This is the reason I can only play a few games a night now, hopping douches fill the vista, its just cr4p :|

"Tard blob 1 encounters tardblob 2, tardblobs play jack in the box for the entire map"

Awesome comment though

Edited by SubXulu, 06 March 2014 - 07:55 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 March 2014 - 07:46 AM, said:

We need something in between the two Alphas...

Oh and i was kinda talking about my Stone Rhino from TT.
2x CERPPC
3X Gauss

75 Point alpha x3 then a 60 point Alpha... All game long!

I'm not even going to dignify that Clan Gauss BS with a response!~