79 replies to this topic

[Mechteric]

XSive Death, on 04 March 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:

Just double heat output when airborne (jumpjets take up all the cooling or some crap), there problem solved.

It becomes too inefficient to poptart so jumps get used primarily for movement.

NO. That also nerfs all jumping mechs who aren't jump snipers. Brawlers, light mechs, medium mechs. Just no.

[DaddyP1G]

The 1 JJ 2 ppc, 2 uac Meta Highlander build is worthless now. You can barely get off the ground. The issue wasn't Jump sniping, it was the fact that you could lift a 90 ton mech with 1.5 ton JJ. If someone wants to popsnipe, and they are willing to invest the 6 or 8 tons to it, more power to them.

[Flying Blind]

You know what's worse than jump snipers? Having a team mate in an atlas that hides in the back and then shoot his team mates if they just happen to be in his way. Like maybe they are hiding from incoming fire and he wants their spot. That's worse than jump sniping good thing we don't have any of those here right.

[PhoenixFire55]

Ghogiel, on 04 March 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

CTF 3D says hi

Well then its not 'meta'. Whole point of haveing AC5s is something that can be fired with more or less same speed as PPC and same range. Besides, if you sub 2AC5s for AC10 your close range DPS is only going down not up.

[RamataKhan]

Steel your Life, on 04 March 2014 - 12:52 AM, said:

This game has gotten so out of control with the jump jet and fire technique that the game is almost no fun to play.

The only reason I have been able to hold out this long is because the only people that did the JJ and fire meta crap were the premade 4 or 12 mans. Now unfortunately everyone is doing it pro and pug making the game so far from anything that feels like a true mech warrior experience.

When I play a match now all I see is a bunch of jumping, bounding, floating mechs bouncing about like its a video game version of the moon landing. This game is a horrible realization of the once proud mech warrior franchise, an unholy money making abomination to everything mech warrior. This is like Disney getting ahold of star wars and making a new star wars film by Disney.....(WHAT?! that's really not a joke its happening...) It would seem artistic integrity is a thing of the past and brand name games sell out faster than popular sports stars. PGI you were never known for anything in the past now you shall ever be remembered in the future for destroying one of the last sacred and most awaited franchises on the PC.

Mechs run around jumping all over the place at ridiculous speeds, mechs go down in a matter of seconds like its a mech warrior version of Call of Duty, its a bad arcade game and im the chump sticking quarters in the slot. Games are stupid one sided stomps because mechs die so fast no one can react to changing battle positions you just step in the wrong place and your gone. THERE IS NO VOICE CHAT!!!

So this is in the balance section because you need t fix the above mentioned problems.

P.S PGI It really should tell you something when the most posts on your forum are under the game balance category. Most mmos the General discussion category has the most posts.

Anyway PGI I hope my money catches fire in the back seat of your car as you drive to the bank.

This an extremely over-exaggerated and biased opinoun, and also happens to be incorrect.

[RamataKhan]

Steel your Life, on 04 March 2014 - 01:12 AM, said:

THE GUY WHO INVENTED BATTLE TECH HAS A PETITION OUT TO TAKE THE RIGHTS AWAY FROM PGI SO COUNTER THAT YOU LEGENDARY FOUNDER NO LIFE 1000 POST FAN BOYS!!!

No he hasn't. And that petition won't do anything.

[RamataKhan]

Flying Blind, on 04 March 2014 - 02:28 PM, said:

You know what's worse than jump snipers? Having a team mate in an atlas that hides in the back and then shoot his team mates if they just happen to be in his way. Like maybe they are hiding from incoming fire and he wants their spot. That's worse than jump sniping good thing we don't have any of those here right.

You know what's worse then that? Being an Atlas pilot and leading a charge or flank and none of your team mates follow you and you get annihilated while they cower behind cover and watch you die.

[Karl Streiger]

RamataKhan, on 04 March 2014 - 11:45 PM, said:

You know what's worse then that? Being an Atlas pilot and leading a charge or flank and none of your team mates follow you and you get annihilated while they cower behind cover and watch you die.

That is how the story ends...the story beginns that in the first moments all team members are following you...but a single AC 2 round or LRM 5 salvo in the face of 3 enemy Mechs - and they jump for cover - and suddenly you are allone (while 6 friendlys would have been more than enough to destroy those 3 enemy Mechs without significant damage - you got wasted without dealing significant damage.

[Varent]

patch helped quite abit. Post is abit pointless. people need to rage less and read patch notes and previous forum threads more.

[Lykaon]

PhoenixFire55, on 04 March 2014 - 03:18 AM, said:

What if I tell you that at 50m range LBX and SRMs also do pinpoint damage? What if I tell you that other brawler weapons (AC-20, MPLs, etc.) always do pinpoint damage? And what if I tell you that sustained DPS on LBX/SRM builds is about three times as much compared to current AC5-PPC meta combo?

ERPPCs are too hot for anything more than 1 shot in 10 seconds in a brawl, and PPCs are 0 damage within 90m. 'Meta' in a brawl is down to either 1 Gauss or 2 AC5s or 2 jamming UAC5s, while a brawler mech can have 2-4 SRM6 packs, 3LBXs, 3AC10s, whatever really, with 2-4 times more DPS.

As long as your brawler is doing at least 70kph and knows what he is doing, 'meta' stands no chance up close.

3 LBX10s? that would be one chassis I know of and it's a hero.

so let me crunch some numbers

A "proof of design flaw" build I use just to prove that the sum total of the meta boils down to AC+PPC= best is a BLR-1G

It has 2 AC5s and 1 ER-PPC nearly maxed out armor and a 325std engine

5.50 DPS

60% cooling efficency

49 seconds of constant fire until shut down from heat.

optimal range 750m or less

VS Atlas DDC 2 LB10x 3 SRM6 2 Med Lasers 300std engine nearly maxed out armor ECM

7.61 DPS (impressive beats out the three gun wonder by 2.11 DPS

39% cooling efficency (not to good but no more room for heatsinks because of the "brawler" weapons using up 27 crits and over 40 tons)

18 seconds until shut down from heat (not even remotely close to three times the sustained DPS it's actually less than half)

Optimal range 270m or less (that means the 3 gun wonder has been shelling you for about 450m or so give or take)

but you said 70kph for brawler speed let me see what I can make

Muromets Cataphract

280xl (have to have an XL to meet the 70kph) 10DHS capped armor (only shaved 2 points off the legs to even out tonnage)
3x LB10X with 2 tons ammo per gun

9.96 DPS (impressive)
83% cooling efficency (also impressive)
Nearly 10 full minutes of constant fire before shut down (you will use all the ammo before this happens)
optimal range? opinions vary I would say between 0-150m but you will hit with something at 400m you will just be wasting ammo for what results you gain at 400m.

Now here are the problems.

you have an XL engine with about 40-50 armor on a side torso (2 AC5 and 2 PPCS = 30 so three hits = dead mech)

You have painfully short effective range meaning you will be under fire as you approach most of the time.Snipers frequently have the luxary of picking where the fight happens and on their terms.

you have 2 tons ammo per gun.I would not compromise any more armor for more ammo or reduce the engine for fear of loss of speed = death.

Can only be built on a hero mech chassis meaning real money is mandatory.

The Cataphract is well known for having difficulties firing up and down slopes due to low slung weapon positions in the arms and the low torso ballistic mount on the right side.The myromets specificly has 2 Ballistics in the arms and 1 in the torso requiring aligning to center to alpha all three guns (not good in a turning fight and close quarters)

This Muromets build is devastating if you can get in close and relativley intact.It is very fragile with the XL engine so honestly I would not classify it as a brawler but an ambush mech.

[PhoenixFire55]

Lykaon, on 05 March 2014 - 06:34 AM, said:

so let me crunch some numbers

This is all good, but initial argument was about comparing same chassis with different loadouts. 'Meta' Victor (2AC5s, 2PPCs) (30 alpha / 6.67 sustained DPS inside 90m) vs 'brawler' Victor (smth like AC20, 2MLs, 2SRM6s) (54 alpha / 6.62 sustained DPS inside 90m) or Victor (LBX10, AC5, 2MLs, 2SRM6s) (49 alpha / 7.76 sustained DPS inside 90m) (all with XL340, 15DHS).

Both with no damage when they start fighing 1 vs 1, both at 0 heat, flat terrain no cover, clean experiment. Let us assume a brawler is able to ambush a sniper and initial fighting starts at ~100m and goes on at ~50m distance. Tell me, which of the builds will win a brawl?

[Ghogiel]

PhoenixFire55, on 04 March 2014 - 11:12 PM, said:

Well then its not 'meta'. Whole point of haveing AC5s is something that can be fired with more or less same speed as PPC and same range. Besides, if you sub 2AC5s for AC10 your close range DPS is only going down not up.

L2P 3D

It's still out there but the 2 AC5 build probably hasn't been the most common build for a long while now.

The 2AC10 PPC build with no heat worries is probably seen more than that one just on it's own. Not to mention some teams use STD engine CTFs in various configs or bring an actual heavy sniper 3D

Edited by Ghogiel, 05 March 2014 - 07:46 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Ghogiel, on 05 March 2014 - 07:46 AM, said:

L2P 3D

It's still out there but the 2 AC5 build probably hasn't been the most common build for a long while now.

The 2AC10 PPC build with no heat worries is probably seen more than that one just on it's own. Not to mention some teams use STD engine CTFs in various configs or bring an actual heavy sniper 3D

This isn't a sniper build at all. Not only AC10 effective range is 170m shorter, the projectile speed is also far slower then that of AC5 and PPC, making your weapons hit different locations on a moving mech. Needless to say this loadout is also 1 ton heavier and 3 crit slots bigger, meaning you have less ammo/DHS, slower engine whatever.

[Ghogiel]

PhoenixFire55, on 05 March 2014 - 07:54 AM, said:

This isn't a sniper build at all. Not only AC10 effective range is 170m shorter, the projectile speed is also far slower then that of AC5 and PPC, making your weapons hit different locations on a moving mech. Needless to say this loadout is also 1 ton heavier and 3 crit slots bigger, meaning you have less ammo/DHS, slower engine whatever.

PPCs aren't sniper weapons as well because AC10s do more damage at a longer range is half your argument. The other half is the projectile speed difference. This comes into effect at about 500m if the mech is moving perpendicular.. secondly, AC5s + PPCs will oft do similarly even at that range. Shit even the 2 AC5s on their own can spread at 500m if you have to lead and aren't getting convergence on the mech.

[Rebas Kradd]

PhoenixFire55, on 04 March 2014 - 01:07 AM, said:

Brawler mech with SRMs, LBXs and SLs/MLs is always gonna win a close range fight vs same chassis with PPCs/ERLLs/ACs. But it needs to be at that close range. Most people are too afraid to push and instigate a brawl. There are many reasons for it, mostly lack of self-confidence and lack of faith in your team, filled with random people who lack self-confidence themselves.

It's also the fact that we're playing a 12 v 12 game and wandering into a full team is suicide. Too many mechs in the game.

[PhoenixFire55]

Rebas Kradd, on 05 March 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

It's also the fact that we're playing a 12 v 12 game and wandering into a full team is suicide. Too many mechs in the game.

How about wandering into entire enemy team with your entire team?

[FullMetalJackass]

[Davers]

Steel your Life, on 04 March 2014 - 12:52 AM, said:

P.S PGI It really should tell you something when the most posts on your forum are under the game balance category. Most mmos the General discussion category has the most posts.

We had a General Discussion category, then it got nerfed.

[PhoenixFire55]

Ghogiel, on 05 March 2014 - 08:55 AM, said:

PPCs aren't sniper weapons as well because AC10s do more damage at a longer range is half your argument.

That longer range where AC10 does more damage start at about 900m, where it does like 3 points of damage, meaning you just waste your ammo. PPC is sniper weapon because it does not require ammo and you can shoot it all day doesn't matter if you only do 1 damage its still worth it.

Ghogiel, on 05 March 2014 - 08:55 AM, said:

AC5s + PPCs will oft do similarly even at that range.

Yes, but for AC5-PPC combo its tiny compared to AC10-PPC.

Ghogiel, on 05 March 2014 - 08:55 AM, said:

Shit even the 2 AC5s on their own can spread at 500m if you have to lead and aren't getting convergence on the mech.

No. Even if you don't point at mech you point at smth, and both your PPCs and ACs will go there. So when target crosses their flight path they converge.

[Voivode]

Osric Lancaster, on 04 March 2014 - 01:09 AM, said:

^ ^ ^ Was it entirely necessary to quote the entirety of OP's text? I have the strangest compulsion to drink that man's tears. . .



It's pretty clear that OP has never played in a jump jet 'Mech. Jump jets are anemic and terrible in MWO relative to every single other incarnation of Mechwarrior. Ever.

If you're dieing too fast, then chances are you are chargin' in Rambo style and getting focused down. If you aren't hangin' with your team or running a fast spotter or in behind a light wolf-pack you should reconsider that strategy. Beyond that we could give you advice if you asked for it proper. The new player help forum is good for this.

Yep. Jump jet snipers die easy if you get close to them. Charging across the open by yourself will get you killed every time.