134 replies to this topic

[Sybreed]

Toong, on 04 March 2014 - 11:43 PM, said:

The topic hasn't been hit on in a while, far as I can tell, but last I heard, PGI was favoring a radial command menu over VoIP. There are a couple of reasons for this decision, if I remember:

For one, VoIP is typically underutilized when present in games. Not everyone has a microphone, not everyone has a microphone that works well, and of the people that do have microphones, many of them still use third party programs anyway.

For another, people can be real Skumlordes over VoIP. Think back to your own experiences, if you've had many, and ask yourself this: Whenever playing Call of Duty, or Team Fortress 2, or Counter Strike, or Halo, or Battlefield, or whatever you play, how many times were people constructive? And how many times would others get upset and start screaming at each other for being idiots? It's possible that my experiences have been atypical, but people tend to be insulting as often as they are helpful. I'd rather not be shouted down for doing something someone else didn't like.

Third, VOIP is expensive. It requires more effort to build or integrate, but more importantly, transmitting someone's voice is much, much more bandwidth intensive than transmitting a signal that tells the other clients which prerecorded command to play. You can argue that the bandwidth costs are worth it, if you wish, but I personally would prefer that bandwidth is spent on things I'm more interested in, like more content and customization.

Using a command system, by contrast, removes hardware concerns and, being a client feature, is instantly usable by everyone. In addition, it gives players a much faster way to communicate vital information to each other without also giving them a much faster way to insult each other. But best of all, it performs the same function while using a fraction of the resources. Not only that, but using a command system allows commands to be integrated seamlessly into the HUD and the battlegrid.

I used to agree strongly that this game needed VoIP, because this game is so very, very dependent on proper team coordination. But once PGI started talking about using a radial command menu instead, and listing the reasons why they're opting for that over VoIP, I was swayed. Using a command system in lieu of VoIP is, in my opinion, a very reasonable decision.

Or you could dismiss my post and call me a white knight.

Too bad you had to add that last sentence, because you made a very good post that promotes discussion instead of forum rage. All I had as argument against VOIP before was that some old guys didn't want to hear 15 years old in their headphones.

As for your examples, having played close to 100 hours on CS:GO and more than the double on CS: Sources, CS 1.6 and CS beta, I can tell you that people has been constructive there more than 75% of the time. Same goes for Planetside 2 and DOTA 2. Only games where I can tell VOIP promotes jackasses to act like jackasses are CoD and perhaps TF 2?

As for the resource part, I don't know if VOIP is so demanding. Bandwith-wise, it's practically nothing and I highly doubt it's so hard and costly to implement. Just look at Payday 2, the game is borderline low budget (but very well made) and they've had VOIP from the start.

Lastly, I'm fine with adding a command system, BUT FREAKING ADD IT ALREADY. It'll be better than nothing, but really, VOIP would be even better. Typing in chat is already hard in a fight, giving "commands" won't be really easier if you're getting shot at.

[TygerLily]

Yes, this game needs it...similar to Planetside 2 which not only has VOIP but they are already separated in to proximity, squad, platoon, outfit (clan), and I think even faction channels. You can mute and adjust volumes independently for each individual in your platoon (and mute proximity too).

This game needs at least Lance and Company first, with Proximity as a close second.

EDIT: And a rose command:

Edited by TygerLily, 05 March 2014 - 08:02 AM.

[Helmer]

Toong, on 04 March 2014 - 11:43 PM, said:

Lots of good stuff.

Third, VOIP is expensive. It requires more effort to build or integrate, but more importantly, transmitting someone's voice is much, much more bandwidth intensive than transmitting a signal that tells the other clients which prerecorded command to play. You can argue that the bandwidth costs are worth it, if you wish, but I personally would prefer that bandwidth is spent on things I'm more interested in, like more content and customization.

Agreed!

These are two parts of development that we as theorycrafters don't usually need to consider, the business and technical aspects of it.
We all can imagine an ideal Mechwarrior game, but the realities of finances and technical limitations usually don't factor in.

Not that VOIP is a technical limitation at this point, however, financially it maybe be expensive to license another in game voip solution or take considerable engineering bandwidth to integrate C3.



Cheers.

[Blood Rose]

Alwrath, on 05 March 2014 - 06:34 AM, said:

VOIP is a terrible idea. You want them to dedicate time and resources to it to delay the features we want out of this game even further? No thanks. You want trolls screaming in your ear while you play and ***** you out for not doing something he wants you to do? No thanks. You want the game to be even more laggy during a match because of the added resources to VOIP? No thanks.

Theres a reason why teamspeak and ventrillo exist. Get on with your friends or get in a unit that uses it and stop complaining.

Hey look, a troll.

I agree with the massive needfor VOIP. It is a massive essential for the games.
Frequently i do not have time to stand by and type a message to my team because in the time ive done that the hostiles have started shooting me. Its kill or be killed and he whom shoots first has the advantage.

VOIP is desperately needed within this game.

[TygerLily]

Helmer, on 05 March 2014 - 08:37 AM, said:

Agreed!

These are two parts of development that we as theorycrafters don't usually need to consider, the business and technical aspects of it.
We all can imagine an ideal Mechwarrior game, but the realities of finances and technical limitations usually don't factor in.

Not that VOIP is a technical limitation at this point, however, financially it maybe be expensive to license another in game voip solution or take considerable engineering bandwidth to integrate C3.



Cheers.

Personally, I'd take super-tight matchmaking and VOIP (for good pugging) over Community Warfare...

[Davers]

Sybreed, on 04 March 2014 - 08:44 PM, said:

Now, unleash the white knights so they come and tell us why we don't need VOIP in a team online multiplayer game.

Sybreed, on 04 March 2014 - 09:19 PM, said:

you're such a troll

Sybreed, on 04 March 2014 - 10:05 PM, said:

it wasn't intented at being constructive, so I'm cool with you stating the obvious.

Yeah, we can't be civil to each other when we have to think and type out our replies. Most people on an in game VOIP won't be intending to be constructive either.

[Sybreed]

Davers, on 05 March 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

Yeah, we can't be civil to each other when we have to think and type out our replies. Most people on an in game VOIP won't be intending to be constructive either.

sorry, Heffay kinds of bring new level of forum rage in me I never experienced before

[Heffay]

Sybreed, on 05 March 2014 - 11:49 AM, said:

sorry, Heffay kinds of bring new level of forum rage in me I never experienced before

Me? What did I do?

Sheesh, you try to be helpful and people accuse you of giving them forum polio!

[Coolant]

p8ragon, on 04 March 2014 - 08:54 PM, said:

I agree. VOIP is especially important in mwo, where every second counts. No respawns can be quite punishing

How about adding respawns in addition to VOIP

[Mechteric]

I will say as a counterpoint to VOIP in some games being worse for the annoying players who don't use it for actual teamplay, there's Planetside 2 which while some groups don't use it much, I've only ever heard annoying players over the Proximity chat, not usually over Squad or Platoon chat (likely cuz they'd just be booted from it, or I could just go join another squad).

[Flying Blind]

So the two big arguments against VOIP are:
1: trolls will make it unpleasent
And
2: I'm concerned the bandwidth and technical demands might make the rest of the game worse.

As to argument 1: hello mute button. Easy win. Have one for each individual and one for the whole system for when you don't want any voices at all damaging your calm. Argument #1 is invalid.

#2 is a valid concern and I certainly wouldn't suggest sacrificing game performance for voip. The fly in this ointment is that so far as I can tell, no one in this discussion has the experience or knowledge to say if this is a problemm or not. Many other games use voip and have good performance so why not MW:O?

[Ronious]

I wish we could get an answer as to what PGI's plan is regarding this matter. If it is not do-able because of bandwidth, the fear of bad men saying potty words to the children, or something else entirely.

I don't log on the TeamSpeak very often because my life does not allow it. I am constantly being interrupted while playing to help with something around the house. I don't have the time to invest in sitting in the lobby waiting for someone to pick me up. It would not be fair the team I join if I have to break every third game. We all know we hate that guy who needs to break after every drop.

I say to the "Just use TeamSpeak" crowd realize that is not an ideal for everyone. We all know communication is a key element to this game. What is wrong with allowing more people to utilize it?

[Flying Blind]

PGI has stated on several occasions they think voip is not needed because all the teams already use a third party client like teamspeak but they have recently learned, to their suprise that most people don't drop on teams. This is a good reason to reassess the whole voip position.

[CeeKay Boques]

VOIP? With the knuckleheads on these forums? No thanks.

By the way, Comstar NA works just fine. If you can't be arsed to even hunt around for the semi official Team Speak group, you're just the sort that I probably don't want to hear over VOIP.

That said, people who want to voip with other people (made me stop playing Fortress) should be allowed to. Just don't take up any of my precious dev time to do so.

TygerLily, on 05 March 2014 - 07:28 AM, said:

Yes, this game needs it...similar to Planetside 2 which not only has VOIP but they are already separated in to proximity, squad, platoon, outfit (clan), and I think even faction channels. You can mute and adjust volumes independently for each individual in your platoon (and mute proximity too).

This game needs at least Lance and Company first, with Proximity as a close second.

EDIT: And a rose command:

So... a more fluid Commanders Screen.

Go go go!
Go go go!
Go go go!
Go go go!
Negative.
Go go go
Negative
Go go go!
Negative
Negative
Negative
Go go go
Negative

[TygerLily]

Technoviking, on 05 March 2014 - 05:17 PM, said:

VOIP? With the knuckleheads on these forums? No thanks.
...

So... a more fluid Commanders Screen.

Yea, that'd be good too. But I envision the rose command would be there for any player, giving them a quick way to call for help, call a push, etc.

In a perfect world, that integrated VOIP would include options to pull up the Battlemap and see individual volumes/mutes for all the players on your team...so if someone's being obnoxious, or blaring music through proximity, super talkative, extra loud input from their mic, etc...turn'm down or mute'm.

Especially if we have lobbies where we are playing with the same people over and over while pugging...it could hold the volume level you set throughout your stint in that lobby.

Edited by TygerLily, 05 March 2014 - 05:22 PM.

[Peiper]

Out here on the island, we factions, units, and lone wolves already have voice coms. It's only the neanderthals and lazy folks who don't bother finding a team to join that feel the need for voip. PGI needs to work on other things. Those people who WANT to talk to their teammates already have many options out there to choose from. To all those who feel they are missing out on a team experience, might I suggest: stop missing out. Join a team. It IS that simple.

PGI has enough on their plate. There was nothing wrong with C3 except that lazy people didn't want to load it up, and guys who were already on teams didn't bother to turn it on and run two voice programs at the same time. Same thing will happen again if PGI shoehorns it into the game.

[Heffay]

Peiper, on 06 March 2014 - 08:18 PM, said:

Out here on the island, we factions, units, and lone wolves already have voice coms. It's only the neanderthals and lazy folks who don't bother finding a team to join that feel the need for voip. PGI needs to work on other things. Those people who WANT to talk to their teammates already have many options out there to choose from. To all those who feel they are missing out on a team experience, might I suggest: stop missing out. Join a team. It IS that simple.

PGI has enough on their plate. There was nothing wrong with C3 except that lazy people didn't want to load it up, and guys who were already on teams didn't bother to turn it on and run two voice programs at the same time. Same thing will happen again if PGI shoehorns it into the game.

C3 only worked in groups. It didn't do anything for a random pug drop.

[GRiPSViGiL]

Considering I have a Khan Summoner on the way and gotten the overlord Phoenix plus purchased 2 x 25000MC packages I would give them another whole $10 towards VOIP or even a workable com-rose for Command and Lance leads.

I could wait on CW a bit considering I would rather have fair balanced games with a level playing field. Launch module will hopefully address some of this but without efficient ways to communicate with teammates the 4 man's will always have that one advantage.

Edited by GRiPSViGiL, 06 March 2014 - 08:59 PM.

[Fooooo]

TygerLily, on 05 March 2014 - 07:28 AM, said:

Yes, this game needs it...similar to Planetside 2 which not only has VOIP but they are already separated in to proximity, squad, platoon, outfit (clan), and I think even faction channels. You can mute and adjust volumes independently for each individual in your platoon (and mute proximity too).

This game needs at least Lance and Company first, with Proximity as a close second.

EDIT: And a rose command:

Also add a commrose in the form of "vsays" (et / etqw) where all you have to do is press V to bring up the main comms menu (its always out of the way and you can still move and shoot while its open) then a number to go into the selected type of comms you want to send.

I would hate a commrose to be added for it to only be one of those silly mouse moving ones. Thoses ones take control away from you, are slow generally (in terms of speed to highlight and select vs using keys) and can usually only hold a few commands (as you cant use submenus...well you can but that would be annoying as all hell with the mouse imo) with nothing too specific really etc.

IE, add something like this as well...

V-1-1 would be say " Hello!! "

V (open comms menu)
1 (general comms selections)
1 (Hello!!)

V-1-2 would be say "Goodbye" (in et this was V-5-5 if i remember right....not that it matters......)

V (open comms)
1 (general comms)
2 ( goodbye )


Add all the other types of menus and comms to go with them etc....


Its extremely fast and easy to use once you remember the combo's. Even slowly going through it causes no problems as it never takes control of your char or prevents any control or blocks any vision etc.

Edited by Fooooo, 06 March 2014 - 11:58 PM.

[van Uber]

Flying Blind, on 05 March 2014 - 02:33 PM, said:

So the two big arguments against VOIP are:
1: trolls will make it unpleasent
And
2: I'm concerned the bandwidth and technical demands might make the rest of the game worse.

As to argument 1: hello mute button. Easy win. Have one for each individual and one for the whole system for when you don't want any voices at all damaging your calm. Argument #1 is invalid.

#2 is a valid concern and I certainly wouldn't suggest sacrificing game performance for voip. The fly in this ointment is that so far as I can tell, no one in this discussion has the experience or knowledge to say if this is a problemm or not. Many other games use voip and have good performance so why not MW:O?

There are also other games that have less encourageing experiences with VIOP, that might suggest command hotkeys or rose is a better alternative.

When WH40k SpaceMarine was about to be patched for the first time Relic polled for features to implement and the number one feature requested, by a long shot, was a "Mute All" button.

Now, if you implement VOIP, you need to implement a mute button. If you implement a mute button, you can not rely 100% on it for communication. On the other hand, commands or short info (like "press F5 for broadcast target position" etc) seems to be universally acceptable. So for PUGs it seems like a command rose or other shortcuts would benefit them more.