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Are Clans More Meritocratic Then The Great Houses?


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#21 CyclonerM

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 06:00 AM

View PostMohawk Howell, on 07 March 2014 - 06:38 PM, said:


A cadet does not perform a Trial of Position in a Circle of Equals. A CoE is used to settle fairly petty personal things, or as a response to a some level of insubordination.

View PostCraig Steele, on 07 March 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

CoE is used for every trial, the circle itself is abstract in many cases and can be a whole planet. For the Refusal War it was the respective Invasion corridors of Clan Jade Falcon and Clan Wolf. All cadet Trials of Position take place in a CoE, its just that the CoE is the proving grounds.

Thank you CS.

#22 Jaroth Corbett

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 01:21 PM

mer·i·toc·ra·cy

Quote


ˌmer-ə-ˈtä-krə-sē\
plural mer·i·toc·ra·cies

Definition of MERITOCRACY

1: a system in which the talented are chosen and moved ahead on the basis of their achievement

2: leadership selected on the basis of intellectual criteria


Yes we are. The best example that illustrates both points would be Vlad Ward recreating the Wolf Clan.

View PostPaintedWolf, on 07 March 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

I know this is hardly perfect, Smoke Jaguar for example had some very corrupt politics going on where warriors were using dishonorable and political methods to get ahead. By and large, it seems as if though, even if you were born in the Labor Caste, if you somehow managed to defeat a Warrior in combat, unaugmented, they would have to consider you for the Warrior Caste.


Not sure what you are referring to with the Smoke Jaguars. :rolleyes:

A warrior & a laborer would not fight.

View PostMohawk Howell, on 07 March 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

Yes, but no.

It's a meritocracy with an asterisk. Politics and classism is rampant. If a laborer attacked a warrior and won he wouldn't become a warrior, he'd win the argument. A laborer would have to some how be taken into the Warrior Caste then survive training untill he could take a trial of position

The most likely outcome of a labor defeating a warrior is for the warrior to take revenge by killing the laborer.


As I said before, that would not happen.

View PostMordin Ashe, on 07 March 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

Clans have a hierarchy in castes, labourers being way bellow the warriors. In this regard, those two wouldn't meet in the Circle of Equals because the are simply not equal.


Exactly.

View PostPaintedWolf, on 07 March 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:


Unless one challenged another to a Trial of Grievance. For example, Phelan Kell was not considered an Equal by Vlad Ward or many other Clan True Borns, but he was still allowed to fight in a Trial for his honor.

If the Warrior challenges the Laborer, or accepts a challenge from one, the results would still be valid.


Any warrior who challenged a laborer or accepted a challenge from one would be laughed at. I think you are missing the point. It WILL NOT HAPPEN.


View PostTechnoviking, on 07 March 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

The laborer either failed out of Sibko culling or is a freebirth.

If he somehow was able to defeat a clan warrior in a Trial (the warrior would probably ignore this request, as he can ignore lower castes all he wants, but lets pretend), everyone would laugh at the warrior, and look with a "not bad" face at the laborer.

Then in a fury, the warrior at some point would probably kill the laborer so as remove the loss of honor from his sight. The other warriors would slap him on the back, make fun of him for losing, and go have a beer, leaving the dead lower casteman lying in a pool of blood for another laborer to pick up.

Phelen Kell was a warrior, and I believe he was a bondsman at that point if I'm correct. Warrior is still in the same Caste, even if he was freeborn.


Being devil's advocate let us say a Trial did take place & the warrior lost, he would probably kill himself from the shame. Also killing a laborer for some personal slight would be seen as waste & the Clans abhor waste. Additionally, freeborn might be a warrior, but it is considered a different class.

View PostMohawk Howell, on 07 March 2014 - 06:38 PM, said:

A cadet does not perform a Trial of Position in a Circle of Equals. A CoE is used to settle fairly petty personal things, or as a response to a some level of insubordination.


Incorrect. A CoE is used in any & ALL Trials & even Grand Melees.

View PostCraig Steele, on 07 March 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

Phelan was a bondsman and NOT able to partake in any trials etc until he was sponsored and accepted as a warrior. A Bondsman is best described as a personal property of the Warrior, and in caste levels roughly the same as a Labourer. So regardless of all Phelans talents as a warrior he had exactly zero chance of advanacing in Clan culture until he was granted access to the warrior caste where he could use his talents.


I think Phelan's lineage had something to do with it. Can you say Jal Ward? ;)

View PostCraig Steele, on 07 March 2014 - 08:06 PM, said:


As I said, a labourer can. But he has to be sponsored. Even if he showed the natural talent you're describing, most clans would overlook him as a freebirth alone.

The children of the clans are tested and if they have talent they get a sponsor via the Clan. They go into the warrior caste. A labourer never gets any warrior training (why waste resources on trianing someone inferior) but if they showed natural talent somehow, and it was recognised, and the Clan had a need, and there was no one else, then maybe the planets align and they get a chance. It is possible, but not a common occurence. In canon, it's a remote fluke at best. Theoritically though, it could happen.

As for Aidan Pryde, he failed his initial testing as a warrior and was relegated to the Scientist Caste. There he would have stayed except his Falconer saw something that no one else did, and he sent some warriors to get him back and they got him into a Freebirth solhama unit. Aidan had nothing to do with getting back into the warrior caste (well, except for fighting obviously) the opportunity only came about because of his sponsor.

One doesn't become a freebirth, you either are or you are not.

Clans generally view the key seperation as Warriors then the rest. Most clans allow the lesser castes to mingle without any reprecussion but whether the caste member do is a different story. Clan culture is very structured so a Tech may stop his daughter from seeing a Labourers son for example, and quite rightly (according to culture).

But certainly as a warrior, you don't 'mingle' with the other castes. Basically your posting is your everything. All the companions you ever need are right alongside you. Brothers in Arms. Clan warriors (particularly true borns) have no concpet of love or affection. It's not part of their make up. If you want to couple, you ask and off you go. If either party says no it's no big deal and if they say yes it implies nothing more than going to the movies. It's an entertainment 'transaction'.

Warrior children are rare to say the least and in many Clans imply sub standard warrior (ie, their mind not on the job) which sees them put into lower castes automatically. There are no 'dependants' in Clan units following the warriors around like in the inner sphere.


Actually Aidan became a tech. As for warriors mingling, they can do what they want. There are at least two examples of trueborns hooking up with a lower caste person. I am sure there are more but I know of two off the top of my head. :ph34r:

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 11 March 2014 - 01:44 PM.


#23 Usagi Sakura

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 08:18 PM

The FRR had the kungsarnre, which is free birth warriors, so are free borns able to challenge for admission like current real world terran armed forces?

#24 Ed Steele

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 01:25 AM

The Clans are meritocracies within a hierarchical caste system. Performance in each caste is rewarded although it is nearly impossible to rise above one's caste (in most Clans). Each lower caste can petition the warrior caste to complete martial tasks for them (capture a factory for the labor caste, or eliminate the rival of the merchant caste, or capture a prototype for the science caste), and in return, the lower castes provide the warrior caste with everything that they need.

View PostJaroth Corbett, on 11 March 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

Actually Aidan became a tech. As for warriors mingling, they can do what they want. There are at least two examples of trueborns hooking up with a lower caste person. I am sure there are more but I know of two off the top of my head. :D


Aidan had mile-thick plot armor ;-)

View PostUsagi Sakura, on 24 March 2019 - 08:18 PM, said:

The FRR had the kungsarnre, which is free birth warriors, so are free borns able to challenge for admission like current real world terran armed forces?


I believe that they eventually proved themselves to be worthy to the Ghost Bears and some FRR did become Ghost Bear warriors.





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