35 replies to this topic

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Foxfire, on 08 March 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

Knockdown is coming back... once PGI gets around to properly implementing it.

Don't hold your breath. We got Paul still at the wheel here...

Maybe if Thomas wasn't overwhelmed with trying to get more content in the game.

[aniviron]

MustrumRidcully, on 11 March 2014 - 05:11 AM, said:

it was quite an issue, it was an obvious sign how terrible the game's net code was. Any hope of the game looking like a quality product went to shambles whenever someone got knocked down. Immersion? Oh, look, teleporting mech!

Stunlocks were bad for balance, teleporting mechs bad for look and feel.

I don't think that mechs should fall over because they hit each other. That should be a rare occassion. Most hits should simply lead to both mechs stopping and maybe shaking a lot. Okay, if you must, also deal some damage to both mechs.

This, so much. It meant that any 2v1 was a GUARANTEED loss for the one pilot if the two players were just smart enough to have one guy ram and the other one ream. Even if (and that's a big if) knockdowns worked 100% properly, they're a terrible mechanic for that reason alone. It was much worse in practice thanks to the unsolveable issue of latency- I could be 30-50m away from someone in my Jenner, and suddenly, bam, on my face. I can hear you thinking, "But aniviron! We have HSR now!" that's true- but HSR requires that we give the shooter priority for being 'correct' which is why you get shot around corners. Who does the server decide is correct when one person says they plowed into someone else, but that player thought he was 50m away? If you don't knock down, the first player is wondering why the second is still standing; if you do knock down, the second player is wondering why they just got flattened.

And I also agree that knockdowns should be rare, if they happen at all. Not sure why most people seem to envision mechs running into things with the same physics they would imagine if two rubber balls bounced off one another, but much more likely is a situation where one or both of the mechs takes damage as steel hits steel and metal twists, absorbing the impact. It's like being in a car crash and wondering why your vehicle didn't roll over or bounce off the wall. Adding to this, most mechs aren't actually moving that fast, and many of them have hands/arms to break their falls, and presumably would attempt to balance instead of having the relative grace of a toddler who had just learned how legs work.

[Odins Fist]

DukeP, on 08 March 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

"Why No Longer Knockdown?"

ANSWER: Tears of the fallen

[oldradagast]

Foxfire, on 08 March 2014 - 04:15 PM, said:

They got rid of knockdown because what they had before was a poorly executed placeholder that was highly exploitable.

I want it back(as a primary Light pilot) but only if it is properly executed.

This. Looking over those old videos of knockdown, it looks more absurd than fun, and appears to be the perfect tool for trolls. Think it's bad when team-mates light you up with "accidental" fire? Think how much fun this would be, watching teams stumble and crash into each other... Ugh... It also makes 2 vs.1 an absolutely victory for the team of 2 since they can just have one guy keep the other guy pinned while shooting him. Finally, watching all that rubber-banding in the knock-down video also make it plain just how horrible this system would be given the latency issues. It's bad enough when shots that appear to hit count as a miss, but imagine being tossed on your rear randomly because the server thought you tripped over somebody.

The concept is decent in theory, but it would need a ton of work to make it a valid tactic and not just a troll-tool or a way to punish everyone nearby a poor pilot, and even then, with lag issues it probably isn't possible to implement in practice. Personally, I don't feel the game is lacking without knockdowns, though physical attacks - punching, namely - could be an interesting addition that wouldn't be troll fodder and give a small buff to mechs with hands since right now having hands on a mech just wastes crit slots.

Edited by oldradagast, 11 March 2014 - 10:13 AM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

The best part of knockdowns was watching two lights smashing into each other while trying to swarm you, and picking them off as they tried to get up.

It was a poorly implemented mechanic, but I'd love to see knockdown come back if they can figure out a better way.

[Sug]

Mcgral18, on 08 March 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

The goons loved Paul too much, so he got rid of it.

I'm sure it's just coincidence that that video was published, collisions were removed, and then we get an official response from Paul on bringing them back all in the same month

http://mwomercs.com/...isions-back-in/

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Based on everything so far I predict that knockdown, if put in at all, would be somewhere around 2018.

[xMEPHISTOx]

As this is supposed to be a sim based game it needs collisions re-added so as to make it feel as such...but when Dragon Bowling ( was running rampant they did not simply fix it but instead completely removed collisions altogether making this less sim and instead pushed it a little closer to being a arcade game.
I for one would love to see collisions re-added and physics as a whole as well, so we can get back on the path of a more sim related game, this arcade bs belongs in hawken not mwo.

Edited by xMEPHISTOx, 11 March 2014 - 01:03 PM.

[DONTOR]

DukeP, on 08 March 2014 - 04:23 PM, said:

When 100 tons collide, shit is supposed to happen..

Right now I had a Boars Head run straight into a catapult - and I clipped through it. Right. Like water through rain.

That's not how its ever supposed to work. At least let it shake up the cockpit a lá LRM impacts.

Funny thing is if a locust hit an atlas at 170 kph the atlas would certainly fall aswell, if they implement it like this then I wouldnt see the problem. Equal playing field for all.

Example just incase this gets criticism.
you weigh 200lbs and a 40lb dog moving 40 mph hits you in the lower legs while your running at 15mph, your almost certainly going to take a dirt nap.

Also mechs with hand actuators (or just hands in general) should get up much faster IMO.

Edited by DONTOR, 11 March 2014 - 01:24 PM.

[Prezimonto]

MustrumRidcully, on 11 March 2014 - 05:11 AM, said:

it was quite an issue, it was an obvious sign how terrible the game's net code was. Any hope of the game looking like a quality product went to shambles whenever someone got knocked down. Immersion? Oh, look, teleporting mech!

Stunlocks were bad for balance, teleporting mechs bad for look and feel.

I don't think that mechs should fall over because they hit each other. That should be a rare occassion. Most hits should simply lead to both mechs stopping and maybe shaking a lot. Okay, if you must, also deal some damage to both mechs.

What I really want are mechs to have stability issues if firing weapons on the move they're not designed to carry...

Toting an AC20, in a hardpoint designed for an AC5? Better not fire that sucker on the move, or you risk knocking yourself over. Traded out 3 medium laser slots for 3 PPCs? better fire while stable or risk falling over...

Make the crosshair HUD flash to a different color when your mech is unstable... yellow when stable and purple when unstable.

Edited by Prezimonto, 11 March 2014 - 01:29 PM.

[o0Marduk0o]

DukeP, on 08 March 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

Originally a huge part of Mechwarrior was actually fighting. Kicking. Etc.
I once drove a mech named the Hatchet...

Now my Atlas can't even get a Locust to falter....

That seems.. Fcked?

Why no collisions any longer?

Because they were broken?

[Stonefalcon]

Foxfire, on 08 March 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

Knockdown is coming back... once PGI gets around to properly implementing it.

So is the new Mayan Apocalypse

Edited by Stonefalcon, 11 March 2014 - 07:39 PM.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 11 March 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

Based on everything so far I predict that knockdown, if put in at all, would be somewhere around 2018.

Whoa! 2018! Slow down there Road Runner! That's Ludicrous Speed!

PGI needs at least 7 or 8 years before collisions.

[Galenit]

DONTOR, on 11 March 2014 - 01:22 PM, said:

Funny thing is if a locust hit an atlas at 170 kph the atlas would certainly fall aswell, if they implement it like this then I wouldnt see the problem. Equal playing field for all.

Example just incase this gets criticism.
you weigh 200lbs and a 40lb dog moving 40 mph hits you in the lower legs while your running at 15mph, your almost certainly going to take a dirt nap.

Also mechs with hand actuators (or just hands in general) should get up much faster IMO.

We had this some time ago.
Was a thread with a lots of math and physics and discussion about standing up and knockdown bonus and malus for some mechs as perks. We had also discussed center point of mass and impact point as factor for knockdowns.

After a year of suggestions and discussions over different topics i stoped with it.
Its wasted time, they do not read, they do not listen and they prefer to use some selfmade solution that nearly noone out of their teams understands over the solutions provided by there players and physics.

(Sure its a sf game, but physic will still count for giant stompy robots build some time in the future with materials and technics we dont know yet.)

[DeRazer]

TBH I'd be happy right now with just a mass based movement mechanic...

You know when that friendly Medium is in the way of your Atlas and you just want to PUUUSHHH!

It's just not reasonable for a stationary light to be able to stop my Victor on the run...

[Bagheera]

Mcgral18, on 08 March 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

The goons loved Paul too much, so he got rid of it.

Such a pathetic excuse. Try again:

"Paul and company couldn't get it to work correctly, so they took the easy road and removed it."

It's never, ever coming back. Think for a little bit about the hideous backlash from now almost 2 years of new players who never experienced it.

We're stuck without it, and we're probably never getting melee either.

Foxfire, on 08 March 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

Knockdown is coming back... once PGI gets around to properly implementing it.

No. It just isn't. Ever. PGI screwed the pooch on it by removing it and letting the game come out of closed beta without it. Too many players never experienced it and it is too massive of a change for them to bring back, even properly.

Knockdown is never coming back. Full Stop.

Edited by Bagheera, 12 March 2014 - 07:08 AM.