11 replies to this topic

[Krysic]

I'm not sure how feasible my idea would be in practice but I'm sure the community will chime in and help me out. I don't know the math underlying the game mechanics very well so if you can see any reason that this scenario wouldn't work feel free to post it below and we'll see if we can come up with a solution.

THE IDEA:

Create GLANCING DAMAGE for ballistics and lasers that scales with the speed differential between shooter and target.

HOW IT MIGHT WORK:

If implemented on a scale that adjusts to say a 5% damage reduction for every 20 KPH, it would inspire players to move more often without forcing a bunch of other "balancing" adjustments. In essence I imagine it looking something like this:

Speed differential:

20 Kph = 5% DR
40 KPH = 10% DR
60 Kph = 15% DR
80 Kph = 20% DR
100 Kph = 25% DR
Etc.

To tackle a couple of issues before they're posted I've answered a couple of my own questions below.

Q) Would this apply to mechs that are standing still?
A) Somewhat. It would apply to the fire of any mech moving slower than 20 Kph, however they would lose the reduction on incoming damage.

Q) Won't this make lights harder to kill?
A) Yes, however the scale works for both target AND shooter so a fast mech that wants to do full damage to heavier mech will have to constantly adjust their speed to more closely match the target when they fire.

Q) How will this stop the pop tarts?
A) Hopefully every target they shoot at will be moving, that makes popping over a hill to fire your weapons without a spotter quite a bit more difficult. It should also make standing in one spot jumping up and down when the enemy knows your location much more risky.

Q) Won't this imbalance Ballistics and Lasers?
A) I don't think so but if anyone can see how it would please post your concerns below.

Q) Why wouldn't the reductions affect missles?
A) Missles have their own speeds. If they hit you, there's a good chance they are moving close to your speed. Plus I can't figure out how that would make any sense since you don't aim them manually.

Q) What if I'm playing Assault or Conquest and standing still on a cap point / enemy base?
A) Hopefully you have enough battle awareness to seek a position behind cover from whatever lane you expect the enemy to approach. In which case this is a moot point. Once engaged anything other than a circling light will probably inspire you to move a bit anyway. 20 Kph isn't very fast.

Q) What if I made a mech that can't go 20 Kph?
A) You are dead already, we will come and get you after we systematically dismantle the rest of your team.

I'm sure I've left some important questions out but it's too early in the morning (late at night) for me to continue as I work on Sundays.

Anyway, I think this would be a good solution to the many, many games I've seen where both teams spend the majority of the match hiding on opposite sides of a hill. It would increase the survivability of spotters without granting them extra power and create more incentive for tactical advancement / coordination in each of the game modes.

As I said above, I don't know much about the underlying mathematics in the game so if you see any issue with the implementation of this mechanic please feel free to post below and perhaps we, as a community, can figure it out.

Thanks for reading.

Edited by Krysic, 09 March 2014 - 01:52 AM.

[Whatzituyah]

I know this is balancing but with an actual laser can something going the speed of light actually miss? Be honest. How is this relevant basically if a laser is X ammount of Celcius its not like mechs can escape heat. Plus wouldnt this only apply to ballistics? When something is moving and the bullets moving hits the target the bullet won't penetrate as badly because the object was moving.

Sorry if this dos not make sense to you I am tired and cant sleep.

Edited by Whatzituyah, 09 March 2014 - 02:05 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Only bad players ever stand still. Good poptarts / hillhumpers don't stand still, they always move. This solves nothing I'm afraid. The more damage you can do with the least possible time of being exposed the better. Its just that easy and there is nothing you can do about it.

This idea is interesting, but you can say there is already enough damage reduction when both shooter and target move as its more difficult to shoot when moving and shoot a moving target.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 09 March 2014 - 02:10 AM.

[Whatzituyah]

PhoenixFire55, on 09 March 2014 - 02:07 AM, said:

Only bad players ever stand still. Good poptarts / hillhumpers don't stand still, they always move. This solves nothing I'm afraid. The more damage you can do with the least possible time of being exposed the better. Its just that easy and there is nothing you can do about it.

Artstrike/Airstrike could get their unwanted attention.

[PhoenixFire55]

Whatzituyah, on 09 March 2014 - 02:09 AM, said:

Artstrike/Airstrike could get their unwanted attention.

Do you realize that its actually easier to use airstrike / artillery when you are a poptart? It is fired like any other weapon, to drop it into group of poptarts requires you to actually go there and take fire, while they can just hop over ridge, drop it and disappear.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 09 March 2014 - 02:17 AM.

[no one]

There's already a damage reduction for being faster. Fast 'Mechs can jink to make themselves harder to hit, twist or use rough terrain to spread laser damage, dive for cover, outrun SRMs or run under LRMs. Besides, it doesn't make a lot of sense from a physics standpoint. You're talking about a matter of a few KPH when you have bullets traveling 2000 m/s, missiles that do explosive damage, and lasers that are light speed. Then you have 'Mechs charging towards each for relative speeds of -200 kph. Does that add 50% to their damage? I imagine we would see a rise in the use of "Jousting" Gauss Dragons.

Krysic, on 09 March 2014 - 01:48 AM, said:

. . . both teams spend the majority of the match hiding on opposite sides of a hill. . . .
increase the survivability of spotters . . .

You can keep a UAV or artillery strike for games like that, or flank around cover and try to spot from the sides or behind. Or bring a NARC on a blitz boat, get in there and chum up the waters for your LRM boats.

Edited by no one, 09 March 2014 - 02:43 AM.

[El Bandito]

I do not want this idea implemented, because I love to splatter light mechs with my AC20. While standing perfectly still.

[Tahribator]

No. It really doesn't make sense and is not intuitive, even more so than the current heat scale.

[Dirkdaring]

How about no, because this isn't an issue to begin with.

[Livewyr]

2 things:
1: What is this idea based on? (At the moment it seems arbitrary.)
2: When the game is about warfare, you're going to have people being smart about how they fight.

Utilizing cover > moving in the open
Minimal Exposure > brawling in the open (this is what leads to jumpsnipers- jumpsniping is just smarter than trying to fight in the open. (Think 1800th Century European fighting formations vs. Guerrilla tactics and cover usage- the formed up units tended to call the smarter, cover using units.. cowards.)

----------------------
Where I think we should be looking to solve our stationary mech problem: History!

How does one deal with someone in a defensive position where direct fire cannot penetrate?
Indirect fire... (and no, I don't mean the poor implementation of Artillery Strike we have now.. that's an indirect fire that has to be aimed with direct-fire means and therefore defeats most of its purpose in this regard.)

I see two possible helpful changes/additions:
1st: Make artillery target-able on a minimap, that's how we did it for the last 100 years, and still how we do it today. (Airstrikes and Guided artillery missiles are still done by smoke/lasing as well as minimap.)

Also, get rid of the Arty strike module and make it a team commander asset (with cooldown) that can be disabled temporarily. It makes no sense that in unit warfare a company has a bunch of individually owned 1-time-use calls-for-fire.

2nd: Bring in the Snub Nose Long Tom. It has a role, and without it, we're seeing the proliferation of what happens as a result. You can comfortably set up a position as long as your flanks are covered. (Combined arms was how the IS fought the clans anyways..)

It's not as though the weapon is terribly broken... it's a 20ton, dualPPC heat, 15critslot, AC20 with AC10 splash, and a high angle/long travel time attack. IT is what we need to hurt those mechs hiding behind cover.. even if you can't hit them directly, you can still splash them.. they can move or be crippled/destroyed over time.

(As an added bonus, they could also be used to destroy turrets.)

---------------
Mechwarrior needs to have a more combined arms approach if it is going to seem like a battle rather than a solaris arena. (I'm not talking about vehicles other than mechs or infantry... just more variation to mech weapons than the 3-6 categories we have now.)

Deployable scan from orbit (with CD) would be nice too...

(edit: grammar)

Edited by Livewyr, 09 March 2014 - 08:15 AM.

[Krysic]

Livewyr: It's a small generalized version of the damage effect I'd expect to see if the shots were actually hitting a multifaceted surface rather than a hitbox. Personally, I would also prefer an indirect fire option that doesn't require LOS aiming or direct targeting but can't see them implementing anything of the type. I imagine there would be much boardrage over not being able to hide and having to actually use tactics to overcome the artillery. (I believe this is why ECM is in game forcing spotters to counter it for LRM fire to be effective. Truth is I'd even be happy being able to ground target my LRMs without having to adjust along my reticle.)

Dirkdaring: have you ever been in a game where both teams set up firing lines and then wait, and wait, and wait? I'm seeing it more and more lately and honestly it sucks the fun out of it for me. I want to get my ass handed to me by a heroic move from an excellent player but at this point whichever team that advances loses most games I've seen (unless the enemy is horrible positioned or the attackers are working on voice comms. I'd be happy just to see an in game VIOP that isn't third party external)

No One: I don't know why it doesn't make sense to you. Not only does a moving target have a constantly shifting surface that shells should have a chance to glance off, a laser (light based weapon) would have to deal with the amount of light absorbed / reflected by the surface. Don't let logic get in the way. There's nothing logical about this sim as it stands. I'm just tying to get a sense of more tactical movement with a general change that doesn't require the addition of multiple weapon and game types which then need to be "balanced".

Tahribator: Making a flat statement without explaining why it isn't "intuitive" to you doesn't help. Without an understanding of your perspective there is no way to qualify the statement. Why is it you think its unintuitive?

Edited by Krysic, 09 March 2014 - 09:03 PM.

[Livewyr]

There's boardrage over everything, legitimate or not.

Long tom cannon is canon and wouldn't be that tough to implement, most everything is in place. The only reworking that would need done is working the 15 crit slots in. (Which would entail removing the actuators from arms automatically and placing the remaining weapon critslots in the arms.)