42 replies to this topic

[Illuzian Pryde]

So with a lower ping, you still get to see first and if you're good enough, shoot first.

Providing client side you're on target and not being completely selfish trying to steal other's kills in a flurry, then you'll register hits on the other player.

In for example my case in Australia, I might see someone, shoot them but as it happens they've already killed me.

Sounds a lot like what happens without HSR doesn't it? Only difference is I don't have to guess where to aim to actually land a hit.

But I guess if you get good pings and constitute only a portion of the player base you are entitled to have it your way.

[ShinVector]

illuzian, on 10 March 2014 - 11:43 PM, said:

So with a lower ping, you still get to see first and if you're good enough, shoot first.

Providing client side you're on target and not being completely selfish trying to steal other's kills in a flurry, then you'll register hits on the other player.

In for example my case in Australia, I might see someone, shoot them but as it happens they've already killed me.

Sounds a lot like what happens without HSR doesn't it? Only difference is I don't have to guess where to aim to actually land a hit.

But I guess if you get good pings and constitute only a portion of the player base you are entitled to have it your way.

It is certainly sad when you have games where you just die.... Only to see the shot that killed you fly pass a fraction of second later..
Low ping players do not understand big of an advantage they have..
Also... We have poor damage with regards to hit scan weapons.

[Reitrix]

Rad Hanzo, on 09 March 2014 - 01:09 PM, said:

Funny fact : "lagcompensation" NEVER worked, in no game ever (if you can figure out why you might earn a cookie) .

Neither here nor in such megamillion dollar franchises as the BF series .

Supporting the "get rid of HSR" faction fully .

your megamillion BF uses uses player hosts, not dedicated servers. Thus, when i try to play outside the SEA region i have pings of anywhere between 250 - 900. And thats on a 100/40 mbps fiber connection.

All HSR does is record where you are relative to a shot fired. If my client sees you (250 ping for me, 30 ping for you) I'm not required to shoot 20 meters in front of you and cross my fingers hoping i hit.

[Ximius]

Just to add, the HSR is unlikely to be removed, though it is far from perfect. Basically, since they decided to do server based hit registration, they are always going to piss off either the high ping or the low ping players. While it is useful to prevent cheating, it is a hell of a way to do it - namely by pissing off half of your customers.

But given the number of other bugs and "new mechs buy me now ya ya!" stuff they are constantly adding, I doubt this will be very high on the priority list.

[B0oN]

Hey Shin, just as a little cautioner ...
Do you really believe the Devs and what they tell us ?

^^

[ShinVector]

Rad Hanzo, on 11 March 2014 - 05:11 AM, said:

Hey Shin, just as a little cautioner ...
Do you really believe the Devs and what they tell us ?

^^

In the case of HSR... I am a 'PRO Beta tester' of said mechanic.. Yep..
I sort of understand why does and doesn't work.. I need to experiment more... Need a working gaming proxy to stabilise many bad network jitter to the MWO server...

It might or might not happen... My objective is to own any mech with lasers and other hit-scan weapons..

Edited by ShinVector, 11 March 2014 - 08:25 AM.

[B0oN]

I personally find some of the parts in HSR too convoluted to be efficient without massive server/bandwidth-power behind it and serious reconstruction of CE3 workings behind it (that engine in mint condition isn´t meant to handle the awesome amount of projectile and movement data it has to right now) .

Not saying it is inefficient per se, just commenting on its working state since introduction, which was and still is a very random and not very predictable outcome, to say it nice .

From above stems my wish to at least temporarily go back to CB´s infamous "lagshield" while fixing/streamlining HSR and the underlying CE3 netcode .
While CB´s "lagshield" looked and played wierd (hello MW3-style^^) it at least gave reasonable predictable outcomes, which , sadly, HSR does not.

Anyway, we players can discuss our heads off as much as we like, we only agree that the system that is used now needs some work .
Hopefully PGI is able to come up with a good, reliable solution rather earlier than later .

"Better a stable and predictable outcome than a pretty looking but useless one "

[Mechteric]

Before HSR I had to lag shoot like crazy. Its definitely better than without, but they certainly need to keep working on it to make it better.

[B0oN]

Yea well, since we all so gloriously agree to disagree over how beneficial HSR is to everyone around our globe, how about an eight week testing period with EU servers ?
And after that 8 weeks of Asian/Australian servers ?
Maybe make above happen on the testserver-side 3 days per week for 8 hours straight but at Canadian daytime, so PGI/IGP can get realtime telemetry ?
I´d really love to see HSR the other way around the latency waterfalls for global participants and how the community reacts on that .

PGI, you up for that ?

[ShinVector]

Rad Hanzo, on 11 March 2014 - 03:54 PM, said:

Yea well, since we all so gloriously agree to disagree over how beneficial HSR is to everyone around our globe, how about an eight week testing period with EU servers ?
And after that 8 weeks of Asian/Australian servers ?
Maybe make above happen on the testserver-side 3 days per week for 8 hours straight but at Canadian daytime, so PGI/IGP can get realtime telemetry ?
I´d really love to see HSR the other way around the latency waterfalls for global participants and how the community reacts on that .

PGI, you up for that ?

Hey Rad, just as a little cautioner ...
Do you really believe the Devs and what they tell us ?
**Regional servers costs losts of money to setup.

[B0oN]

Touché, Shin-sama

But who else is there to turn to with our global HSR-problematic than the developers ?
And aye, I know it costs some serious dough to get servers up´n running, still our problems with HSR don´t just cease to exist, plus we as a community are not really in the loop about how work is going in this field.

At least I tried to supply some alternatives outside of fix/remove HSR, but it seems that isn´t even remotely the wish of a very major part of the community (namely US/Canadian ) because they have (at least partially) the juicy end of the carrot, why should they nom on bitter roots, quiaff ?

+:
Verbal aikido is okay, but it looks more like ridicule to me than trying to solve anything or nudge some brains .
Was hoping for something more serious, since you and a heap of other guys around here are smart and sometimes even knowledgeable in this field .

[Sprouticus]

illuzian, on 10 March 2014 - 11:43 PM, said:

So with a lower ping, you still get to see first and if you're good enough, shoot first.

Providing client side you're on target and not being completely selfish trying to steal other's kills in a flurry, then you'll register hits on the other player.

In for example my case in Australia, I might see someone, shoot them but as it happens they've already killed me.

Sounds a lot like what happens without HSR doesn't it? Only difference is I don't have to guess where to aim to actually land a hit.

But I guess if you get good pings and constitute only a portion of the player base you are entitled to have it your way.

You are absolutely correct, IF you get hit and die, your shot effectively does not happen. And yes, the low ping play had a small advantage. But I dont think it is the huge advantage you make it out to be.

1) This ONLY happens when you die (or perhaps lose a weapon) from a hit. What % of shots are actual kill shots. MWO is a gam of attrition compared to most FPS games.Even at the highest Elo brackets ratio of shots to kill shots is really high.

2) MWO is NOT a twitch FPS shooter. It never will be. Part of this is #1 above and part of it is the nature of BT. So if you have a 250ms poing and I have a 40ms ping the 'extra time to shoot' you are referring to above works out to be roughly 0.42seconds. Is that an advantage? sure. But combines with #1 above, I think the odds of you getting a shot off that would have prevented his shot in that short window is negligible.

Can it happen? Sure. Does it happen? Probably. Does is ruin the gameplay for those users....frankly I doubt it.

And most importantly, for all its flaws, HSR is still better than lag shooting.

[PhoenixFire55]

HSR is total bullcrap. Yes, you had to account for ping prior to HSR but at least it was consistent. Now its totally random.

[ShinVector]

Rad Hanzo, on 12 March 2014 - 07:35 AM, said:

Touché, Shin-sama

But who else is there to turn to with our global HSR-problematic than the developers ?
And aye, I know it costs some serious dough to get servers up´n running, still our problems with HSR don´t just cease to exist, plus we as a community are not really in the loop about how work is going in this field.

At least I tried to supply some alternatives outside of fix/remove HSR, but it seems that isn´t even remotely the wish of a very major part of the community (namely US/Canadian ) because they have (at least partially) the juicy end of the carrot, why should they nom on bitter roots, quiaff ?

+:
Verbal aikido is okay, but it looks more like ridicule to me than trying to solve anything or nudge some brains .
Was hoping for something more serious, since you and a heap of other guys around here are smart and sometimes even knowledgeable in this field .

Nahh... The ridicule wasn't meant for you... Rather our favourite mecha gaming company *cough..
*This pure speculation on my part... Simply put it is a matter for $$$... Either the company isn't willing to invest much more than they did already on this game or they that they simply have a very tight budget...

This issue is almost totally out of 'our' control... They answer to the company stakeholders first... US.... Maybe... Third...

Meanwhile we wait an see... At this point of time.. This game is more or less 'playable' even from south east asia...
What killed more of the old players was the promise of CW.. 2 years ago... Almost makes be feel stupid for sticking around this long... hiazz...
Maybe... Just Maybe... if they release CW... It willl regenerate a whole lot more interest back into the game...
But based from what I feel in the last tourny... We lost a lot of players since the last tourny...

Even they own devs keep saying regional servers are the way to go.. But since how the management isn't even willing to invest in a server in the USA... Thing do not look good..
Also note.. Another reason why they might not be willing to do it could be due to not having the technical know how.. No how to combine and sync data from separate gaming server..
Remember the time they suggest that regional servers meant.. SEPARATE MWO ACCOUNTS !!

Edited:

Ohhh.. BTW.. I am waiting to see whether a gaming proxy WTFast would finally be compatible with MWO.. Owner says in the next engine update possibly... But I have to take those words with a grain of salt...
That should help stabilise my network jitter issue to mwo greatly i believe.

Edited by ShinVector, 13 March 2014 - 04:25 AM.

[Koniving]

Wieland, on 09 March 2014 - 06:37 AM, said:

Before HSR i could reliably hit fast moving and jumping targets. Since the implementation of HSR it feels like dice are rolled.1-3 you hit, 4-6 you dont hit.

HSR fails when you have a large number of projectiles being fired from you to hit the target. Rather literally one might say it gives up.

Large clusters of SRMs are about the only real case for this failure. But if you fire each SRM launcher one at a time, it becomes significantly more reliable. That or fire at stationary things.

Another thing you can try is this. If you're unable to 'hit' the target through normal means, say you see hits but register no damage, aim to hit the air in front of them instead. By the time the computer does the HSR calculations, the computer will think the enemy mech is where that air was for you, and thus even as the round flies by and hits the ground -- the enemy took a huge chunk of damage from your AC/20.

[Voivode]

Motroid, on 09 March 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:

When will we get EU servers?
Online games with triple digit pings cannot be taken serious.
After all they were promised with "release". This is not funny anymore. It's a rip-off and next to fraud.
For the most part I can be refered to as "White Knight" but this is just ridiculous and I feel screwed over more and more...

Pretty soon, actually. I believe their goal was to have European servers up and running by mid-summer.

[ShinVector]

Koniving, on 12 March 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

HSR fails when you have a large number of projectiles being fired from you to hit the target. Rather literally one might say it gives up.

Large clusters of SRMs are about the only real case for this failure. But if you fire each SRM launcher one at a time, it becomes significantly more reliable. That or fire at stationary things.

Another thing you can try is this. If you're unable to 'hit' the target through normal means, say you see hits but register no damage, aim to hit the air in front of them instead. By the time the computer does the HSR calculations, the computer will think the enemy mech is where that air was for you, and thus even as the round flies by and hits the ground -- the enemy took a huge chunk of damage from your AC/20.

There is a range factor as well... HSR absolutely fails are close range and when the targeted mech orbits your mech. Might be related to network jitter and warping when mechs are very close to each other.

[Koniving]

It's funny you mention that Shin. I've been given that impression too but whenever I try to tell anyone, they're like "No no I get my best shots when they're up close." Yet I watch them and I'm forced to beg to differ.

[ShinVector]

Koniving, on 13 March 2014 - 06:55 AM, said:

It's funny you mention that Shin. I've been given that impression too but whenever I try to tell anyone, they're like "No no I get my best shots when they're up close." Yet I watch them and I'm forced to beg to differ.

They might have different experiences due latency difference... I tend to hear the polar opposite of what I experience from low latency players.
For me at high latency.. HSR is reliably 'BROKEN' at close range...

[FREDtheDEAD]

Internet lag jitter causes problems for HSR. It used to be worse than it is.

HSR is absolutely vital for players with pings over 200. Would be nice if it worked (better).