13 replies to this topic

[JC Daxion]

Just curious.... I always thought that the JJ's were over powered on many maps for the weight... Personally i have only used one mech with JJ's very briefly, but i have to wonder with the patch notes, if my normal non JJ mechs, now have a fire power advantage?


thoughts??

[IraqiWalker]

The jump jets are now more accurate. It used to be that you got the same mobility and maneuverability from 1 jumpjet as you would from 8. Granted you don't get the jump distance, but you could jump and turn on a dime regardless of quantity or weight.

The jump jets received no modification to their weight or altitude potential. They work the same as before. Just that now an assault can't turn as fast a light did with JJs.

As far as being over powered, they really aren't. They give you great mobility, but they take up slots and weight. It's a fair trade off, especially since you are exceptionally slower when flying.


EDIT: In addition, that mobility is a double edged sword. Yeah you can go places faster than most, but that also means you're usually alone and your team can't cover you if you are spotted.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 05 March 2014 - 12:43 AM.

[Redshift2k5]

Well the idea is that some builds may need to use more jump jets, thusly mildly nerfing them since they have a bit less tonnage to spend elsewhere.

mostly people seem to be sticking to the builds they already have and adjusting to the changes, resuting in somewhat less lift and less mobility for bigger mechs using jump jets.

[Koniving]

When I jump in third person I notice a few things. Location of the thrusters. And the lack of adjustment of movement when I move.

Example, if I have thrusters only on my back and I torso twist...my thrusters are now facing a different direction, but there's no adjustment of movement. Granted I do not want sudden shifts like gundams, but I'd like to see if I jump and keep the thrusters going while twisting my torso that I get the initial forward velocity and an ever so slight adjustment in my horizontal movement in the direction of my twist. This would be enough to slightly throw off aim.

What this really says though if I spin around 180, I'd probably almost lose my forward thrust altogether, preventing me from using the leap jump to fly forward and then shoot things backwards with the thrusters on. ...Also, if the thrusters are off there should not be any turning ability at all (though I think this is in play already).

Now if I have thrusters on my back and my legs pointing in certain directions, you'd expect some to participate more in lift, some more in increasing speed, and then the torso one to help make fine corrections or even tilt.

One thing I was thinking of is what if you jump, and you start aiming to the side...and you begin tilting since the biggest thruster is on your back and it's throwing off your balance. Oops, you didn't land on your feet. Had a similar idea for jumpjet counts and/or placement.

Oh I can't wait for knockdowns. Imagine when knockdowns includes weapons as causes for falling over as it should. Poptart leaps, BANG! Poptart's hit! Poptart fell! Poptart took damage to his back! Poptart can't get up! Poptart sees big guns pointed at him! Poptart is dead! YAY!

That'll be the day. That, and the mountains on Alpine. Just imagine... You're in a Stalker, you get near that ledge to perform that fast escape from some dude that's trying to kill you, and you take the hill sideways, slip, and then Peppy from Star Fox yells into your comms, "Do a barrel roll!" and you tumble down with about 5 or 6 somersaults. Some damaged parts. But hey, you escaped with your life and made it! Hopefully you get up while that Jager takes a face plant chasing you so you can blast him while he's trying to get up.

...One can dream. Of course, knockdowns would solve the twin AC/20 problem too on heavies and smaller mechs. Fire. Fall over. "...Oops. Should have fired one at a time."

Edited by Koniving, 05 March 2014 - 06:37 AM.

[Modo44]

I like it as a basic adjustment. Less power from just one JJ on a big mech, and limited recharge mean that poptarting has a distinct cost now. Non-JJ mechs are still at a big disadvantage, because one JJ is still enough to provide serious mobility. This is specifically a poptart nerf, make no mistake. Some thrust vectoring would be nice, but it would require further increasing JJ cost, e.g. via heat.

[TygerLily]

Yea, the 1 JJ thing was clearly a goofy thing that we all just took for granted (and then exploited for truly cheesy play). It was a good fix....

Edited by TygerLily, 05 March 2014 - 07:32 AM.

[GTV Zeratul]

If only Koniving, if only. I still remember the oddly satisfying feeling of hitting a light/medium with (multiple) gauss shots and see them fall over in MW4.
In MW4 I was fairly effective with a Bushwhaker with a gauss in its right arm, when you fired that the tors would twist up to 45 degs. to the right because of the recoil. Brilliant!

[Flyto]

"if my normal non JJ mechs, now have a fire power advantage?"

Well, a mech that doesn't use jump jets obviously has more tonnage available for weapons. In the extreme case, a Heavy Metal can have ten tons of jump jets.

I guess that if the recent change encourages people to put more JJs into their JJing mechs, then yes, the firepower advantage from not having them increases.

[Hammerhai]

Actually, JJ's have been nerfed periodically until they are but a shadow of what they could do in Closed Beta. I remember being able to steer around corners. Yum! So satisfying when the double ac 20's miss because you jinked in mid air. Ah well...

[no one]

Hammerhai, on 08 March 2014 - 04:03 AM, said:

Actually, JJ's have been nerfed periodically until they are but a shadow of what they could do in Closed Beta. I remember being able to steer around corners. Yum! So satisfying when the double ac 20's miss because you jinked in mid air. Ah well...

Wait, wait. . . You're telling me they had maneuvering jets coded in at some point . . .
and then they took it out? What the hell ???!!!***

Edited by no one, 08 March 2014 - 12:18 PM.

[xMintaka]

Koniving, on 05 March 2014 - 06:22 AM, said:

...Also, if the thrusters are off there should not be any turning ability at all (though I think this is in play already).

The rest of your post is filled with physics based yummyness that will, sadly, probably never be included. Despite how much more interesting it would make the game. Oh well.

As for the quoted section, you're half correct. You can turn mid-air without burning fuel, but only if you have fuel left. If you do not there is no mid-air mobility at all.


This nerf hasn't really affected any poptarts other than the HGN-733C though. It's more of a hindrance to jump brawling Victor's from what I've seen.

Edited by Lunatech, 08 March 2014 - 12:31 PM.

[Koniving]

Lunatech, on 08 March 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

As for the quoted section, you're half correct. You can turn mid-air without burning fuel, but only if you have fuel left. If you do not there is no mid-air mobility at all.

This nerf hasn't really affected any poptarts other than the HGN-733C though. It's more of a hindrance to jump brawling Victor's from what I've seen.

That's what I thought but I wasn't sure because my Jenner would blatantly stop turning in mid air if I stopped burning fuel.

[Koniving]

no one, on 08 March 2014 - 12:18 PM, said:

Wait, wait. . . You're telling me they had maneuvering jets coded in at some point . . .
and then they took it out? What the hell ???!!!***

In closed beta June 2012... what he said wasn't true. May have happened before, but it was never like that for the time I've played. His account's younger than mine.

It was inertia based. No forced direction what so ever. You went in the direction you were moving, that was it, and you kept going that way until you landed or hit something. If you were going really fast you could even face plant against a building, but then you just either stopped and fell or you hit the thrusters to go up. But you only needed 1 jumpjet to do anything, and you really took off. Like an actual jump to full height and the rest was to hold you up.

I might even still have the email where I thanked someone in the GameMasters for not doing the jumpjet crap that was in the MW4 mektek packs.

I do.

Quote

Koniving, Jun 07 23:10 (EDT):
My first battle experience was thrilling. Briefly my Jenner was walking behind a really large enemy Atlas-like battlemech. It was fun, and even a little terrifying when he started to realize I was behind him. The jump jets took me to the air but I couldn't seem to really get them to propel me forward. Do they require momentum first like MW3? They don't seem to function like MW2.

Rob's reply. June 08 2012.

Quote

Jumpjets propel you straight up so do require forward momentum to jump forward. You can still rotate while in mid-air but you won't turn/curve your trajectory.

So no corner turning.

The next day.

Spoiler

On the forest colony map, I felt compelled to follow another player who led me to a vast cavern of sorts. The experience and the strategic importance of such a feature were both fully realized and enjoyable. However as I came to exiting it at the higher end of the tunnel, I came across this glitch. I took the time to step back and recreated it a few times rather than fighting at first. This is a clipping/BSP issue very similar to the one I found in Battlefield 3 ( said glitch in BF3).
I had hoped in the screenshot I captured for inclusion in this report would have included the minimap, but for some reason that failed to show or perhaps was 'clipped' out too? I am sorry I could not get the grid-square for it as I was relying on the screenshot for it. To recreate the glitch, simply walk through this space slowly. The distorted effect of 'deleting' sections of the map appears in all directions. http://i.imgbox.com/aav8now6.jpg From what I seen, DICE was able to fix this bug in their latest patch not long after I emailed them about it. Good luck fixing this, Pirahna team! So far this game has been great, I'm really looking forward to its release. It's already the best F2P game I've ever played and I'm eager to see where it heads.
On another note: Being able to "phase" through enemy and friendly mechs, and phase through trees should be fixed. In one mission I spawned inside of some other mech, and both of us were a bit bewildered at what we were seeing. In another instance an enemy 'backed' right through me and blasted my mech to smitherenes! Although there was this one instance where it seemed like my Jenner and an enemy Jenner collided and both tripped and fell. So, not sure what's going on there. But a collision system for the mechs shouldn't be too much to ask (I shouldn't be able to pass through any mech, friendly or otherwise). And on the trees, just common sense.

Random one I also found.

Spoiler

Koniving, Jun 16 01:26 (EDT):

Quote

I started Beta on or near the 4th of June, so I have not had a chance to see what LRMs were like before. I can only assume they were considered to be too weak, as I came in reading and accepting this change note at the beginning...
"TUNING
• LRM Tuning:
o Time to missile lock reduced from 3 seconds to 1.
o Damage increased.
o Area damage increased.
o Overall accuracy increased."
from the changelogs. When I used the SRMs for the first time, I sort of agreed because even with the changes I felt like I was shaking a tabletop pepper shaker at enemy mechs. Of course I had an SRM 6 as part of a DRG. Miniscule and weak, as it probably should have been. But in recent nights, and two battles in particular, I have encountered the full brunt of LRM only to find I have no counter measure. No defense. No "M.C.S." to utilize and none that I could find in mech lab's various systems and parts for any of my 'Mechs.
The first one, due to circumstances of late at night, my DRG and two CATs were on a snow level against two enemy Atlas. Before either of them were in visual range, we were already being hit by LRMs. One of us was destroyed before we got a visual on them. Only one of them was even fighting us. The other just started to walk around him to come in close. My DRG was destroyed before that second Atlas finished walking around. The last catapult was reduced to limping and no arms in the background of what I could see. A single laser finished him off.
From what we could tell, since there were only two enemies ever listed, there was no recon Jenner to help them pick targets. The missiles went into the air and came almost straight down on us. No building could defend us. We could not get closer (we tried when we realised no building could protect us). We were utterly decimated by what appeared to be a single LRM-20.
While the frequency of firing LRMs only seems a little faster than MW3, that combined with a complete lack of counter-measures or defensive measures means that once people figure out that extremely easy kills are in LRMs, I fear the mundane direction that pilots will start equipping their mechs in.
Perhaps a balance of 2 seconds, or maybe 1.5 seconds? But even more importantly, a defensive counter-measure that can be taken against missile spamming. Those things rip through heavy mechs faster than half of them can realize what hit them. The cockpit offers no warning of enemy lock or incoming missiles.
That said, I will be acquiring a missile-equipped catapult to try using LRMs on the offensive side. Hopefully both even the playing field until the state of Mutually Assured Destruction, as well as getting experience on the other end to see if perhaps the Atlas pilot may have stacked up several LRMs and just fired them at once.

The match described was 8 players versus 2 Atlases with no other players. Just us 8 versus them 2. We were slaughtered like lambs.

I missed the 3 second lock on times... But with how devastating LRMs were back then, I bet it made sense.
-------------
Now, that's not to say turning corners isn't a bad idea. I think the thrust should turn with you or at least with your torso twist. The ability to slightly change direction or -- if you have enough JJ thrust -- rapidly change direction at the cost of every bit of fuel you have...would be pretty cool. But nothing where you could zig zag in mid air on a single jump. Too gundam-like then.

I definitely do not want it to be like this.

Edited by Koniving, 08 March 2014 - 02:23 PM.

[Hammerhai]

I beg to correct you respectfully, Koniving.

Yes, for a very short time one could steer with Rudder pedals in mid jump. It could be that that was limited to rudder pedals only, and was actually a bug, that may be. But I could do it. I joined somewhere around Oct 2012(?), and if I recall correctly this would have been pre battlemap implementation, which about happened 2 to 3 weeks after I had joined.

Once again, I correct you with the utmost respect, but here I am certain of what happened.

Hmmm. Your quote is very definite. Odd. Well, I distinctly recall doing that. FWIW. I feel very OLD right now somehow ...

Edited by Hammerhai, 09 March 2014 - 09:20 AM.