79 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

mwhighlander, on 10 March 2014 - 10:18 PM, said:

Paul will never "just fix" anything. He's clueless and only know what a nerf bat is.

Shhh...

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His concept of "fixing things" is to nerf everything enough or break it until it sucks as much as all the other crap that is desperately screaming for fixing.

Welcome to MWO?

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And yes, I'm aware of the "Imperius fiasco" He's in The Remnant with myself. PBiggz got Russ to Unblock him after realizing who he was...

lol Russ

[YueFei]

I *really* like the idea of being able to bank charges. I suggest that maybe it should even allow you to bank enough charges to deal a bit of extra damage with your initial shot. Like, an MPL could deal 7 damage on its initial burst, 1 damage per pulse over 0.6 seconds. That helps it fulfill a striker role. After that, it regains charges as suggested.

Gives it that extra bit of burst damage. Brawlers can torso twist to shield while waiting for a full set of charges.

[Sandpit]

mwhighlander, on 10 March 2014 - 10:18 PM, said:

You mean something like this, where it actually acts like a "Machine gun laser" depending on how long you hold the trigger down?

Similar only it wouldn't be one steady beam. Think of it as more of "laser bullets" so you get more of a machine gun affect. Think of it more along the lines of an AC2 only as a laser instead of physical bullets. The longer you hold the trigger down the more heat it generates for both the mech and weapon itself.

Ever play a game where you have an automatic weapon firing that has no recycle rate but the longer you hold the trigger down the hotter the weapon gets until it the rate of fire begins to slow down and finally overheats and must cool off before firing again? That's basically what I'm talking about here. I'll try to find a video of something along those lines. (World of Planes uses this system)

Guys, come on can we keep the posts on topic? There's plenty of other threads to talk about the merits, demeanors, etc. of devs. I'd really like us to be able to maybe get some results from this like we did with the Narc thread.

[OneEyed Jack]

Bhelogan, on 10 March 2014 - 05:59 AM, said:

One thing I haven't seen here, and maybe you can comment on it, normal lasers have one chance to crit, while pulse lasers have 1 chance per pulse to crit. Has anyone verified this?

Correcting you, since you're wrong. The two types of lasers have exactly the same mechanic. The both use ticks of damage spaced out over the total beam duration, since it's the obvious way to calculate damage over time, especially when the damage may spread over multiple locations or even miss for part of the duration.

The difference is that PLs have shorter durations, so they have fewer ticks, so each tick has to do a larger portion of the damage. They both check for crits for each individual tick that hits a location internally, and the crit damage, of any, is based on the damage of the individual tick. So, technically, lasers get a lot of crits compared to ACs/PPCs, but each one is small and the crit damage will tend to be spread out over multiple components (assuming there are multiple), making them less likely to destroy any individual component.

[aniviron]

mwhighlander, on 10 March 2014 - 10:18 PM, said:

And yes, I'm aware of the "Imperius fiasco" He's in The Remnant with myself. PBiggz got Russ to Unblock him after realizing who he was...

I guess they're a bit flustered about that; I wasn't PMed or warned, but they vanished my entire post for daring to mention that Russ blocked someone. Doesn't even mention which mod it was.

[Sprouticus]

Stardancer01, on 10 March 2014 - 05:19 AM, said:

Brawlers need a short range, fast firing, cool weapon.
Why aren’t pulse lasers filling this role?
Because they are,

• hotter than standard lasers,
  
• fire only slightly faster,
  
• have to compete with regular lasers that are lighter and longer range.

This.

Rising the RoF on Pulse lasers or lowering the beam time further is NOT going to make them viable.

The current limiting factor on lasers is HEAT. You can talk all day long about having a high DPS system for pulse lasers, but honestly it is a TERRIBLE idea IMO

I stated this in the other thread, but I will reiterate for anyone reading this

1) Pulse lasers currently only have 2 small advantages (beam time, slightly higher damage) over regular lasers
2) Medium Pulse lasers have one huge (weight) and two small (heat, range) disadvantages
3) Large Pulse Lasers have 1 medium (weight) and two small (heat, range) disadvantages

Until you balance the advantages over disadvantages, they will not be used en masse.


Lower the heat to the same as their non pulse variant.
Increase the range to just slightly less than the non pulse variant. (250/425)
Keep the max range the same as they do currently ((LPL 700 vs 900 for LL) (MPL 400 vs 540 for ML)

This makes the pulse lasers have a shorter effective range (minor disadvantage) and more weight (huge/medium disadvantage) but more damage/heat (better at brawling) and shorter beam time (minor advantage).

This give a nod to the canon Pulse laser (shoter range, more dmg, hotter), but fits the role PGI wants pulse lasers to fill in MWO.

Even with this the MPL is still going to have a tough time getting off the shelf for larger mechs, but mediums and lights might use them over mediums.

And LPL's would be useful for larger mechs mechs with few energy slots, no ballistic slots, and extra tonnage.

[Sephlock]

Sandpit, on 09 March 2014 - 09:45 PM, said:

This is the kind of post that doesn't help though. Keep in mind I'm not attacking you but hostile posts aren't going to get them to listen to ideas. We've (as in the community) have had some luck recently with getting PGI to listen to some ideas. I'd like to jsut kick around some ideas and get something going that a majority would like to see. We did it with Narc, so now lets try it with this weapon

Given the length of time between the initial outcry (wait, did Narc *EVER* do *ANYTHING* worthwhile? Can someone that was playing since the first day of closed beta chime in?) and them adjusting it, I am not at all certain that the Narc changes are the result of them finally listening as opposed to random chance .

[MustrumRidcully]

Bhelogan, on 10 March 2014 - 05:59 AM, said:

One thing I haven't seen here, and maybe you can comment on it, normal lasers have one chance to crit, while pulse lasers have 1 chance per pulse to crit. Has anyone verified this?

It works the same for both laser types. They produce a number of ticks during the duration, and each pulse has a chance to crit.

If regular lasers only had a single chance to crit, they'd likely have another advantage, because the damage per crit would be higher (unless you think that they still have multiple ticks and only one of them can crit) and so the invidiual crit is more likely to take out one component.
(Unlike as in the table top game,where for crit-seeking, you just wanted to maximize the number of crit chances you generated, in MW:O you also need to deal damage with those crits if you want to destroy anything, and fewer crits with high damage are usually better than many crits with low damage.)

Sephlock, on 11 March 2014 - 04:18 AM, said:

Given the length of time between the initial outcry (wait, did Narc *EVER* do *ANYTHING* worthwhile? Can someone that was playing since the first day of closed beta chime in?) and them adjusting it, I am not at all certain that the Narc changes are the result of them finally listening as opposed to random chance .

You weren't in Closed Beta?

I certainly didn't start hostile or unfriendly or anything like that, and I know that there were many threads on many topics that we still have going on right now that never went anywhere.

I think it's random chance, but if Sandpit has the magic touch, I invite him to also create threads on the heat systems and collating the various opinions and suggestions on it.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 11 March 2014 - 05:01 AM.

[CygnusX7]

Bank charges? No please don't. PGI will screw it up - They'll make it a module you have to purchase or some goofy mechanic to use it.
KISS method.

Edited by CygnusX7, 11 March 2014 - 06:16 AM.

[Mordin Ashe]

Nah, no bank charges. That won't happen, to difficult to implement, a new code would have to be made to make it happen and I doubt they are willing to transfer people from CW to some weapons.

I would love to increase the total ROF of pulse lasers by some 20% and then see how it goes. Right now they still aren't as viable as their regular counterparts, but this way they would have at least something that would make them special. Also, they do a lot of heat compared to not as great damage, meaning they would still stay in the "balanced" half of things.

[SiriusBeef]

Sprouticus, on 11 March 2014 - 04:09 AM, said:

1) Pulse lasers currently only have 2 small advantages (beam time, slightly higher damage) over regular lasers
2) Medium Pulse lasers have one huge (weight) and two small (heat, range) disadvantages
3) Large Pulse Lasers have 1 medium (weight) and two small (heat, range) disadvantages

Until you balance the advantages over disadvantages, they will not be used en masse.


Lower the heat to the same as their non pulse variant.
Increase the range to just slightly less than the non pulse variant. (250/425)
Keep the max range the same as they do currently ((LPL 700 vs 900 for LL) (MPL 400 vs 540 for ML)

This makes the pulse lasers have a shorter effective range (minor disadvantage) and more weight (huge/medium disadvantage) but more damage/heat (better at brawling) and shorter beam time (minor advantage).

This give a nod to the canon Pulse laser (shoter range, more dmg, hotter), but fits the role PGI wants pulse lasers to fill in MWO.

Even with this the MPL is still going to have a tough time getting off the shelf for larger mechs, but mediums and lights might use them over mediums.

And LPL's would be useful for larger mechs mechs with few energy slots, no ballistic slots, and extra tonnage.

This is pretty much right on target.

[Ultimax]

Sprouticus, on 11 March 2014 - 04:09 AM, said:

The current limiting factor on lasers is HEAT. You can talk all day long about having a high DPS system for pulse lasers, but honestly it is a TERRIBLE idea IMO

I stated this in the other thread, but I will reiterate for anyone reading this

1) Pulse lasers currently only have 2 small advantages (beam time, slightly higher damage) over regular lasers
2) Medium Pulse lasers have one huge (weight) and two small (heat, range) disadvantages
3) Large Pulse Lasers have 1 medium (weight) and two small (heat, range) disadvantages

Until you balance the advantages over disadvantages, they will not be used en masse.


Lower the heat to the same as their non pulse variant.
Increase the range to just slightly less than the non pulse variant. (250/425)
Keep the max range the same as they do currently ((LPL 700 vs 900 for LL) (MPL 400 vs 540 for ML)

This makes the pulse lasers have a shorter effective range (minor disadvantage) and more weight (huge/medium disadvantage) but more damage/heat (better at brawling) and shorter beam time (minor advantage).

This give a nod to the canon Pulse laser (shoter range, more dmg, hotter), but fits the role PGI wants pulse lasers to fill in MWO.

Even with this the MPL is still going to have a tough time getting off the shelf for larger mechs, but mediums and lights might use them over mediums.

And LPL's would be useful for larger mechs mechs with few energy slots, no ballistic slots, and extra tonnage.

I really think this is the best direction to push for, it's the kind of balance tweak that only requires a spreadsheet adjustment as opposed to redesigning the entire firing mechanic.

I'm not saying the saved charges/pulses or other mechanics aren't unique, or interesting - they definitely are - but from a practical perspective a change like Sprouticus has posted would be more likely to succeed imo.



P.S. Hi Mustrum, nice to see a familiar name.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 11 March 2014 - 09:01 AM.

[Bloodweaver]

The way I see it, there are two ways to make pulse lasers efficiently fill the niche they are meant to fill. That niche is, high damage volume, at high accuracy, but at great cost in weight, damage, and heat. In other words, they're supposed to be the energy version of AC/20s. So, either:

1) Make pulse lasers into "laser machine guns." Eight or more separate shots per second, and this goes on continuously for as long as you hold down the trigger. Heat limits will mean that, realistically, you hardly ever go more than a second or two without shutting down. Range limits mean that this becomes ineffective at range. And weight limits mean boating becomes less efficient than just having one or two and using fire discipline.

or

2) Lower the burn time. Not by the current piddly 1/4 second difference from standard lasers, that's ridiculous. It's a joke. Lower it drastically. Make LPLs' burn time 1/3 of a second or less, and scale down from there. Hell, make pulse lasers pinpoint. Single instant burst. The mechanic doesn't line up with the name of the weapon, but at least it's filling its role. You could also lower the recharge time a bit to compete with ACs and SRMs. But only AFTER significantly lowering the burn time first.

I prefer option 1, as it sounds a lot more fun to me. On the other hand, option 2 would be easier to implement and balance. In both cases I don't think it would be necessary to change the weapons' base stats too much.

Edited by Bloodweaver, 11 March 2014 - 12:58 PM.

[Sandpit]

I'll wait until this weekend but I'm planning on going back through the entire thread and consolidating all of the suggestions in a single post and maybe we can discuss the pros and cons of each of them. Keep em coming guys I like a lot of the suggestions we've got going on in here thus far!

[Prezimonto]

Sandpit, on 09 March 2014 - 04:54 PM, said:

They would almost be like a "bridge" between ballistics and beams. You get a short beam duration which still spreads damage but has more of a pinpoint feel to it while having the benefits of instant hit of beams.

I think your implementation would be fine, and an improvement.

What I've thought would be nice is an actual pulsed weapon.

Click the mouse, the laser pulses... wub, wub, wub, POP!

the first 3 "wubs" dealing 1 point and act as a sort of guide beam for the larger pulse lasers which back load the damage on the last hit.

So a small PL might do 4 damage, in 4 discrete pulses, and then get it's cooldown.
A medium PL might do 7 damage, 1, 1, 1, 4
A large PL might do 13 but following a scheme like: 1, 1, 1, 10.

Now that's not all that different but what about adding a mechanic that lets you toggle between normal fire, and a "guided fire"... where you can choose to do the 4 clicks yourself. In this mode, each click drops a pulse, letting you range the target... and you're given a 2 to 3 second window to drop all the pulses before the recharge catches up.

Totally different mechanic, one that rewards lining up a series of shots with a big back-end punch on an energy weapon.

Edited by Prezimonto, 11 March 2014 - 01:14 PM.

[Roland]

I'd generally like pulse lasers to do dramatically reduced damage, with a higher ROF, and zero burn time.

Basically, make them into really hot, short range AC's.

I think then they'd have a decent niche.

[Sandpit]

Roland, on 11 March 2014 - 01:32 PM, said:

I'd generally like pulse lasers to do dramatically reduced damage, with a higher ROF, and zero burn time.

Basically, make them into really hot, short range AC's.

I think then they'd have a decent niche.

single shot?

[Roland]

Yeah, just kind of one little pulse... If you hold down the trigger it'd be like "pew-pew-pew!"

[Sandpit]

Roland, on 11 March 2014 - 02:20 PM, said:

Yeah, just kind of one little pulse... If you hold down the trigger it'd be like "pew-pew-pew!"

gotcha, I agree, like a laser machine gun in a way. That's what I was trying to describe. I think adding in a heat gauge on the weapon itself would be a good trade-off for it. Gun overheats and it shuts down. If you have more than one equipped you can switch to the next but you're still heating up your mech as well on top of that.

[Bhael Fire]

Honestly, they aren't too bad, all of them just need a shorter beam duration so that they deliver their damage faster, a slight heat reduction and a reduced cool down.

Large Pulse Laser
Heat: 7.5 (from 8)
Duration: 0.5 seconds (from 0.6)
Cooldown: 3 seconds (from 3.25)

Medium Pulse Laser
Heat: 4.5 (from 5)
Duration: 0.5 (from 0.6)
Cooldown: 2.5 seconds (from 3)

Small Pulse Laser
Heat: 2.25 (from 2.4)
Duration: 0.3 (from 0.5)
Cooldown: 2 seconds (from 2.25)

I think something like that would make them more tempting to use over their standard counterparts.