17 replies to this topic

[Dunning Kruger Effect]

I've looked around on the forums and it seems there is a 150-152kph speed cap due to netcode issues.

But my 280XL Spider 5K says it is doing 166kph.

Is the speedo lying?

Or has the cap been raised?

Has anyone in a 260kph+ mech run beside a 252-kph mech and drawn ahead?

[Egomane]

The Speedcap has been raised to about 170 - 172 kph months ago, when we got the Locust with the Phoenix packs.

Some mechs recieved an update to reflect that. Others, like the ECM-Spider, did not.

[PhoenixFire55]

Yep. My Jenner does 152 with speed tweak and XL300 engine, but a Commando with XL240 outruns me very easy.

However, if the speed is scaled down so that 172 kph is actually 150 kph it won't surprise me.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 09 March 2014 - 03:18 AM.

[Bront]

PhoenixFire55, on 09 March 2014 - 03:18 AM, said:

Yep. My Jenner does 152 with speed tweak and XL300 engine, but a Commando with XL240 outruns me very easy.

However, if the speed is scaled down so that 172 kph is actually 150 kph it won't surprise me.

No, it's actually 172.

Sadly, it's caused some rather silly problems. The Locust, which should be the fastest mech in the game, is not (due to rounding issues, the Commando is), and it's simply not viable, where if it other mechs topped out at 160ish and the Locust got to 170, then at least it'd have something special, but if the cap goes up again, putting a bigger engine in a locust is already not likely, as you simply can't mount enough equipment in it already.

Then again, the Firestarter shouldn't be as fast as it is either (XL275 would have been a better engine cap).

[PhoenixFire55]

Bront, on 09 March 2014 - 07:40 AM, said:

Then again, the Firestarter shouldn't be as fast as it is either (XL275 would have been a better engine cap).

Yeah, +1 to this.

[Koniving]

Bront, on 09 March 2014 - 07:40 AM, said:

No, it's actually 172.

Sadly, it's caused some rather silly problems. The Locust, which should be the fastest mech in the game, is not (due to rounding issues, the Commando is), and it's simply not viable, where if it other mechs topped out at 160ish and the Locust got to 170, then at least it'd have something special, but if the cap goes up again, putting a bigger engine in a locust is already not likely, as you simply can't mount enough equipment in it already.

Then again, the Firestarter shouldn't be as fast as it is either (XL275 would have been a better engine cap).

Armor concept... dun dun dun. +1 to Firestarter engine cap.
Engine caps in general should be x number of ratings above stock.

[Mechteric]

Koniving, on 09 March 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

Armor concept... dun dun dun. +1 to Firestarter engine cap.
Engine caps in general should be x number of ratings above stock.

The only problem there is you get some mechs that are far superior stock configs and then become even better than their sister variants. Case in point: Ravens.

Raven 3L is the best Raven, with the best speed, best hardpoints, and mounts ECM.

The Raven 2X and 4X have lower max engine, can't have ECM, and have the worst hardpoints.


In a properly balanced world the Raven 3L would have the lower max engine since it has ECM, and the 2X and 4X would get the better max engine. This speed rule should apply to all ECM lights in my opinion.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 10 March 2014 - 05:36 AM.

[PieRat]

Yup my Death Knell (Commando hero) does 171. something KPH.

[Hexenhammer]

1 Fix net code
2 Remove engine caps
3 ??????
4 Profit.

[Koniving]

CapperDeluxe, on 10 March 2014 - 05:34 AM, said:

The only problem there is you get some mechs that are far superior stock configs and then become even better than their sister variants. Case in point: Ravens.

Raven 3L is the best Raven, with the best speed, best hardpoints, and mounts ECM.

The Raven 2X and 4X have lower max engine, can't have ECM, and have the worst hardpoints.

Hence armor concept. Look at those Ravens again. Then all the light mechs.
Now imagine Variant Stock Armor + 3 tons (96 points) = Variant New Max Armor. Apply to all mechs.
The Raven got a boost above the current max, it's true. But is the Raven 3-L all that great, then? Yes, it has great speed. Even if it'd be slower than it's top speed now due to x amount of ratings above stock. But what about that armor or total lack of it compared to the other Ravens?

Simply at stock, the Raven 4X has better armor than 1 out of 3 Shadowhawks. The Raven 2X has equal armor to the weakest armored, most firepower powerful Shadowhawk. Both the Ravens 4X and 2X have better armor than one of the Jagers, the Raven 4X has slightly better armor than the Jager DD which makes the Raven 4X better armored than 2 out of 3 Jagers.

The Firestarters would yield as only slightly better than the Raven 3-L in armor. The best Firestarter armor-wise in the cbill range is the FS9-A, equal to a Raven 2X. The hero Ember is equal in armor to most of the Firestarters and inferior to the FS9-A.

The only competing Jenner to the Raven 4X would be the Jenner F -- arguably the "worst" in 'meta' of the Jenners due to the lack of missile ports. Oh look, having almost twice the armor of any other Jenner makes up for that!

Commandos and Cicadas would be on equal terms in armor. Commandos with better turning ability already built into the game and much cooler running. That kinda screws Cicadas, right? Maybe with the exception being that with all mechs having x amount of engine ratings above stock, thus Cicadas would become the second fastest mech in the game -- significantly faster than their cooler running, more agile, and significantly smaller Commando brothers in armor limits.

Locusts are now the fastest, with armor comparable to a Jenner D to make up for the lack of firepower and suddenly viable!

The Jenner D would remain the most powerful Jenner in terms of firepower and weaponry, but would have to yield due to lack of armor. However, unlike the Jenner F, the Jenner D would probably have an easier time using a bigger engine since the Jenner F would be carrying significantly more weight in armor.

The chain reaction spreads throughout the game, instantly balancing and shifting the game in favor of the 20 years of balancing that has occurred throughout Battletech's history.

Victors become armor inferior to many mechs, allowing for its immense firepower and jumpjets to come at a price.

The Awesomes become superior in armor to Stalkers and comparable to Battlemasters.

Atlases actually become tough to kill instead of the jokes they are (but that's okay, getting behind one always works!)

The Hunchback reclaims medium mech superiority in armor over the Shadowhawk in exchange for less speed.
The Shadowhawks would never use said speed, instead channeling weight into maximum ranged firepower as two of them can't fight too well in brawling range -- becoming lore friendly again. After all, Shadowhawks are by lore 55 ton recon mechs, forward artillery spotters, and fire support. Not brawlers. Leave that to the almighty Hunchback.

Griffins and Kintaros both are armor superior to 2 out of 3 Shadowhawks (some variants armor superior to all 3 Shadowhawks) with Kintaros becoming the second most armored medium in the game currently.

Wolverines become, as akin to lore, the most armored medium mech currently in MWO. "Command" medium mechs, "Forward chargers," "Brawlers" are used in the Wolverine's description.

Lore settles back in. The game becomes significantly more balanced. Metas change from the choice between high pinpoint alphas or gimped... to "maximum firepower" or "maximum armor" or "maximum speed" or "good firepower and speed" or "good firepower and armor" or "good speed and armor" or "jack of all trades where it's moderate in all 3 categories."

Edited by Koniving, 10 March 2014 - 09:39 AM.

[aniviron]

How I wish this game were not f2p; we could make mods to try out ideas like Kon's. While there are certainly many duds among stock Battlemech builds, most of them at least have something; like the poor Thunderbolt, whose only claim to fame is being incredibly tough, armor maxed. When some things but not others are kept scarce, like hardpoints but not armor, the mechs who are canonically boats do very well, since they can just slap some endo steel on and become every bit as tough as their opponents, but they also get to enjoy bountiful hardpoints, while the tougher chassis suffer.

It's impossible to say exactly what kind of metagame would shake out, and there would for sure be winners and losers, but I bet it would help battlefield diversity significantly. Why bother making all these mechs if only a few get used, and of those, only a few variants? It's more fun when you could run into anything around the corner, instead of knowing it's probably just one of a few things.

[Mott]

Personally... i think the speed of the lights is crazy fast already and should be capped lower. My knowledge of BT lore is limited to the novels only. Never played TT.

I'm re-reading the series now, and after Decision at Thunder Rift, Mercenary's Star, Wolves on the Border, Heir to the Dragon and Warrior: En Garde there is no mention of light mechs approaching 170-200kph.

Even to reach 130-140kph the fastest mechs had to have absolutely ideal flat terrain... which obviously the MWO maps are not.

[Koniving]

aniviron, on 10 March 2014 - 09:31 AM, said:

How I wish this game were not f2p; we could make mods to try out ideas like Kon's. While there are certainly many duds among stock Battlemech builds, most of them at least have something; like the poor Thunderbolt, whose only claim to fame is being incredibly tough, armor maxed. When some things but not others are kept scarce, like hardpoints but not armor, the mechs who are canonically boats do very well, since they can just slap some endo steel on and become every bit as tough as their opponents, but they also get to enjoy bountiful hardpoints, while the tougher chassis suffer.

It's impossible to say exactly what kind of metagame would shake out, and there would for sure be winners and losers, but I bet it would help battlefield diversity significantly. Why bother making all these mechs if only a few get used, and of those, only a few variants? It's more fun when you could run into anything around the corner, instead of knowing it's probably just one of a few things.

Indeed. Certain things can be done for future mechs.

Example, if another Trebuchet situation comes up a change in how it's shaped or its size could make up for its other flaws. Or if it's just the variant that gets screwed then giving it better hardpoints is pretty easy.

Hardpoints themselves are an artificial concept started in MW4, so a mech having better hardpoints than another isn't because they were like that in lore, but because PGI tacked them in. Case in point, Awesome 8Q having 7 energy. The source has 4 energy weapons mounted. The others? Added for fun.

Much like the current engine caps. All 35 ton mechs had two engine choices. 175 or 245. I believe there's a third choice higher, and another lower. But that's it, and it was a limit for ALL 35 ton mechs. So the Jenner having a higher engine cap than the Raven? Added in by PGI. The Ravens 2x and 4x would, by tabletop rights, be able to equip identical engines to the Jenners, Firestarters, and Raven 3-L.

So if we're going to throw in engine caps to promote diversity between them, and hardpoints to promote diversity between them, we need individual armor caps to finish the job otherwise some variants are simply superior in every aspect.

The "best" mechs with the best firepower and speed...always had terrible armor. But the game doesn't support it right now.

[Koniving]

Mott, on 10 March 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

Personally... i think the speed of the lights is crazy fast already and should be capped lower. My knowledge of BT lore is limited to the novels only. Never played TT.

I'm re-reading the series now, and after Decision at Thunder Rift, Mercenary's Star, Wolves on the Border, Heir to the Dragon and Warrior: En Garde there is no mention of light mechs approaching 170-200kph.

Even to reach 130-140kph the fastest mechs had to have absolutely ideal flat terrain... which obviously the MWO maps are not.

Indeed. And said armor concept would boost their armor a bit. It'd even boost the light mech's armor a bit. But it'd boost every mech's armor equally (96 points or 3 tons more) based on a stock value. A cap in the engine like 4 to 6 ratings above stock would go a really long way, too. There's only two things to change after that. Streak's and their physics defying ability to turn. And possibly -- though not actually necessary -- the autocannons.

The reason I say not necessary is the only real threats with twin AC/20s now carry less armor than half the lights and most mediums. Twin AC/20 Cicada? Extinct. Twin AC/20 Blackjack? Possible, it'd have about as much armor as a twin AC/20 Jagermech. Which is a comical thought considering how easily it's killed. The Boom Catapult would come back, but honestly the Dragon has more armor than a Catapult after these changes...

[Amsro]

Bront, on 09 March 2014 - 07:40 AM, said:

No, it's actually 172.

Sadly, it's caused some rather silly problems. The Locust, which should be the fastest mech in the game, is not (due to rounding issues, the Commando is), and it's simply not viable, where if it other mechs topped out at 160ish and the Locust got to 170, then at least it'd have something special, but if the cap goes up again, putting a bigger engine in a locust is already not likely, as you simply can't mount enough equipment in it already.

Then again, the Firestarter shouldn't be as fast as it is either (XL275 would have been a better engine cap).

The Locust should be able to mount larger engines for sure. Using the spider in smurphy I've built a 1V using a 225xl engine. @ 21 tons it would be the same as a locust. (the spider chassis is 1 ton heavier when empty, hence 21)

The larger engine saves you the unnecessary heat sink tax while giving you more speed.

Speed (kph) = 16.2 * engine rating / mech weight. 16.2*225/20 = 182.2 kph

That is a reasonable top speed for a light ninja mech. The cap will go up once MASC comes into play. Hope the netcode is up to it.

[Bloodweaver]

Koniving, on 10 March 2014 - 09:03 AM, said:

Hence armor concept. Look at those Ravens again. Then all the light mechs.
Now imagine Variant Stock Armor + 3 tons (96 points) = Variant New Max Armor. Apply to all mechs.
The Raven got a boost above the current max, it's true. But is the Raven 3-L all that great, then? Yes, it has great speed. Even if it'd be slower than it's top speed now due to x amount of ratings above stock. But what about that armor or total lack of it compared to the other Ravens?

Simply at stock, the Raven 4X has better armor than 1 out of 3 Shadowhawks. The Raven 2X has equal armor to the weakest armored, most firepower powerful Shadowhawk. Both the Ravens 4X and 2X have better armor than one of the Jagers, the Raven 4X has slightly better armor than the Jager DD which makes the Raven 4X better armored than 2 out of 3 Jagers.

The Firestarters would yield as only slightly better than the Raven 3-L in armor. The best Firestarter armor-wise in the cbill range is the FS9-A, equal to a Raven 2X. The hero Ember is equal in armor to most of the Firestarters and inferior to the FS9-A.

The only competing Jenner to the Raven 4X would be the Jenner F -- arguably the "worst" in 'meta' of the Jenners due to the lack of missile ports. Oh look, having almost twice the armor of any other Jenner makes up for that!

Commandos and Cicadas would be on equal terms in armor. Commandos with better turning ability already built into the game and much cooler running. That kinda screws Cicadas, right? Maybe with the exception being that with all mechs having x amount of engine ratings above stock, thus Cicadas would become the second fastest mech in the game -- significantly faster than their cooler running, more agile, and significantly smaller Commando brothers in armor limits.

Locusts are now the fastest, with armor comparable to a Jenner D to make up for the lack of firepower and suddenly viable!

The Jenner D would remain the most powerful Jenner in terms of firepower and weaponry, but would have to yield due to lack of armor. However, unlike the Jenner F, the Jenner D would probably have an easier time using a bigger engine since the Jenner F would be carrying significantly more weight in armor.

The chain reaction spreads throughout the game, instantly balancing and shifting the game in favor of the 20 years of balancing that has occurred throughout Battletech's history.

Victors become armor inferior to many mechs, allowing for its immense firepower and jumpjets to come at a price.

The Awesomes become superior in armor to Stalkers and comparable to Battlemasters.

Atlases actually become tough to kill instead of the jokes they are (but that's okay, getting behind one always works!)

The Hunchback reclaims medium mech superiority in armor over the Shadowhawk in exchange for less speed.
The Shadowhawks would never use said speed, instead channeling weight into maximum ranged firepower as two of them can't fight too well in brawling range -- becoming lore friendly again. After all, Shadowhawks are by lore 55 ton recon mechs, forward artillery spotters, and fire support. Not brawlers. Leave that to the almighty Hunchback.

Griffins and Kintaros both are armor superior to 2 out of 3 Shadowhawks (some variants armor superior to all 3 Shadowhawks) with Kintaros becoming the second most armored medium in the game currently.

Wolverines become, as akin to lore, the most armored medium mech currently in MWO. "Command" medium mechs, "Forward chargers," "Brawlers" are used in the Wolverine's description.

Lore settles back in. The game becomes significantly more balanced. Metas change from the choice between high pinpoint alphas or gimped... to "maximum firepower" or "maximum armor" or "maximum speed" or "good firepower and speed" or "good firepower and armor" or "good speed and armor" or "jack of all trades where it's moderate in all 3 categories."

To sleep, perchance to dream... I cannot but help imagining how much more diverse the game would be with this implemented. Sometimes I pretend it's true regardless... until I see an Awesome running by at 70kph since that's the Awesome's (tenuous) niche in MW:O, contrary to its niche in lore as a slow, tanky, turret on legs :\

[Bront]

Amsro, on 10 March 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

The Locust should be able to mount larger engines for sure. Using the spider in smurphy I've built a 1V using a 225xl engine. @ 21 tons it would be the same as a locust. (the spider chassis is 1 ton heavier when empty, hence 21)

The larger engine saves you the unnecessary heat sink tax while giving you more speed.

Speed (kph) = 16.2 * engine rating / mech weight. 16.2*225/20 = 182.2 kph

That is a reasonable top speed for a light ninja mech. The cap will go up once MASC comes into play. Hope the netcode is up to it.

With Endo it's only half a ton. (3 tons vs 2, so 1.5 tons vs 1)

[Amsro]

Bront, on 11 March 2014 - 06:56 AM, said:

With Endo it's only half a ton. (3 tons vs 2, so 1.5 tons vs 1)

drop one machine gun then. Still better then the current slowcust.