109 replies to this topic

[Rokuzachi]

Triple LBX Muromets is a fun gimmick. 8 tons of ammo, spray and pray. It's not good, and it requires you to play like a scumbag to make it work.

When it works, it's hilarious though. If hit detection actually worked in this game, it'd be slightly more effective!

[Odins Fist]

Ah, the ol LBX-10 debate.. Let me fix it for you.

A long time ago in closed beta I ran (2) LBX-10s on an Atlas D-DC, and it worked nicely.
Then some changes happened, and it still worked, just not as nicely.

Present/Today: (2) LBX-10s = really decent damage numbers, but low kills due to the fact that the LBX-10 is a finisher for wounded mechs, not a Kill everything quick weapon, it lacks pinpoint due to damage spread, and you cannot argue that point.

It's neat that some people learn HOW to PLAY with the LBX-10, it's one of those weapons you really have to adjust your play style to be very proficient with. Also all weapons are like that in similar ways, it's just that the LBX-10 simply does not concentrate damage like other weapons.

I have been watching the ol (3) AC-10 setup, and watched it down mechs faster with less overall damage stats.

Conclusion: It's better to destroy an enemy Mech faster, and with less damage needed to be done versus putting up BIG damage numbers and fewer kills. The faster you reduce the enemy team size by destroying it's mechs, the better your chances of winnning the match.

The old "I like this weapon better, so it must be better" thing, doesn't make it the better weapon, it just means you are proficient with that weapon, that is all...

[Koniving]

A single LB-10x can be devastating.

The HM matches are pugged.

Spoiler

LB-10x + AC/2. Other weapons, twin streaks, 3 ML. XL 325 engine. Highlander Heavy Metal.


Same as above, payout.


This one was recorded.


Video.

And this one.

----------------

Hunchback 4G, LB-10x, 2 MG, 3 SPL. First time using it.

Spoiler

Video as recorded externally by Lordred in a 2 man premade. Other voices, one is waiting to join us in the next match. The other is playing World of Tanks and complains about cheaters.

-----------
Twin LB-10x can be a nightmare, even if the other weapons are MGs and flamers.

Twin MG, twin LB-10x, 4 flamer Jagermech (part of a premade) chase cam.

Spoiler

And for Odins Fist's comment... Twin LB-10x Atlas back in the day with this abandoned project. I miss that Atlas.

[Odins Fist]

Koniving, on 11 March 2014 - 09:43 AM, said:

A single LB-10x can be devastating.

And for Odins Fist's comment... Twin LB-10x Atlas back in the day with this abandoned project. I miss that Atlas.

The ol' Atlas D-DC with (2) LBX-10s was fun to run.

[Kubernetes]

DONTOR, on 11 March 2014 - 07:25 AM, said:

Yet you praise the UAC? It too is unreliable but in a different way and its jaming can get you killed. It seems best when used at range and then upclose in emergencys (brawling with them can leave you down 2 weapons when it really matters) . I use plenty of UAC and LBX builds they both have their uses.

Yeah I love the UAC5. I wouldn't rely on a single UAC5 as my only knife-fighting weapon, but at range they're devastating. People complain about jams, but it takes what, 5 seconds to clear? That's not much worse than the effective cool down on Gauss or dual PPCs (considering heat). At least when my UACs are firing I'm putting out silly pinpoint DPS at long range. The effective range of an LBX is little better than SRMs.

And the AC10/AC5 combo in an Atlas? 20 tons vs 22 tons for dual LBX, and you get range + pinpoint damage. It's just no contest.

I admit the trip LBX Ilya is hilariously fun, and in the one in five matches where the situation pans out you can actually wreck face, but then you'll land in Alpine or Tourmaline or Caustic and the fun ends very quickly.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Nahh its gonna be cheese build maulers with daul ac20's running around...its got the tonnage for that, endo, and probably a decent amount of ammo, and most importantly, supporting weapons.

Ideally mine will have 2 ac2's ac5's craptons of ammo, and as much in the way of supporting weapons as i can cram in it with ~300 std engine...we will see.

My other two will definitly be a cheese mauler and a dual gauss mauler, as I'm sure at least one variant will only have 2 torso ballistics, one i know has 4, and the other might have about 6 or so, each with varying amounts of arm energy and torso missiles...who knows?

[Roland]

Koniving, on 11 March 2014 - 09:43 AM, said:

This one was recorded.


Video.

I'm interested in checking out that video to see what happened, but from looking at the scoreboard, I'm thinking that part of the reason you're finding the LBX effective is because you're playing with a ton of new players in whatever bracket you're fighting in... I mean, in that scoreboard, you've got more trial mechs than I've ever seen in a single game.

In those kinds of games, the fact that LBX builds are so sub-optimal isn't as big an issue, because the other players are using equally bad builds.

[Escef]

Roland, on 11 March 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:

I'm interested in checking out that video to see what happened, but from looking at the scoreboard, I'm thinking that part of the reason you're finding the LBX effective is because you're playing with a ton of new players in whatever bracket you're fighting in... I mean, in that scoreboard, you've got more trial mechs than I've ever seen in a single game.

I'm thinking at least 2 of the Dragons on his team are not new players, the ones with 300+ damage. And to be honest, lots of trials on your own team is a handicap, not an asset. Granted, it does imply that the other team isn't all that great either, but you may note that the opposition put out decent damage numbers as well. Hell, both teams in this pic are overall better than in the one I posted. Did you actually look at those borked up damage totals?

Edited by Escef, 11 March 2014 - 12:01 PM.

[Roland]

Escef, on 11 March 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

I'm thinking at least 2 of the Dragons on his team are not new players, the ones with 300+ damage. And to be honest, lots of trials on your own team is a handicap, not an asset. Granted, it does imply that the other team isn't all that great either, but you may note that the opposition put out decent damage numbers as well. Hell, both teams in this pic are overall better than in the one I posted. Did you actually look at those borked up damage totals?

I'm thining that they are almost certainly new players... but the thing is, when a ton of players are all playing against each other, that's the kind of thing you see... fairly high damage numbers, because they are all spreading damage all over the place since they aren't precise enough to kill targets cleanly.

Also, one thing that is kind of amusing in that video, is around 7:30.... There's an orion there, and some other folks on the other side of the boat... You are clearly in the line of fire of the Orion, and yet have time to open up the map and screw with it, while under fire from the Orion.

How is that happening? BECAUSE THE ORION IS CARRYING AN LBX10 AS WELL.

And his damage is so pitiful, that despite him firing on you while you aren't even looking at the game and are instead looking at the map screen, he is incapable of doing any significant damage at all to your mech. He makes all of your armor yellow, then he dies.

Then you run into a Jenner who is running 2 medium lasers, a medium pulse (lol?) and an srm4... who is standing perfectly still in the open, and then dies.

Then a stalker with 4 ERPPC's and two medium lasers (lol again?) You fire at it for a huge amount of time without doing any significant damage to its armor, basically making every section blink but not breaching any of it. Then a dual 20 jagermech walks up to it and just rips the crap out of his right torso almost instantly and kills it.

So honestly man.. I'm really not seeing this as some epic story of the greatness of the LBX.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Lbx cannons are only good in facehug distance, or against mechs with stripped armor and exposed internals. THe fact that you cannot reliably strip armor with the cannon itself is why it fails, even in twin mounts...the LBX ddc is only scary when it sneaks up on you...if you see it coming and have time to start ruining its ballistic torso, it dies, very quickly. the range needed to effectively use the cannon to ruin armor is too short...ive only been impressed with this weapon ONCE...i pretty much 3 shot an atlas once because its a wide target, and he was at the perfect range for all the shots to hit his CT. other than that something I would leave to fast mediums or heavies that can get in close enough to use this weapon to pick apart wounded assaults..ive had good luck using this on a dragon till shadowhawks came out, now the dragon simply isnt really fast enough to do its old thing well.

[Rokuzachi]

It's a bad weapon, but I refuse to play the lolololpinpointmetablastjj game, so I'm left to throw shotgun-esque weaponry on my machines and run around being a play4funhwarrior Maybe some day, I'll be able to take this game seriously and do something other than stupid gimmick loadouts.

I saw a 6 flamer/3 MG Battlemaster running around the other day. That'll be a cute one to try out!

Edited by Rokuzachi, 11 March 2014 - 02:44 PM.

[Kubernetes]

That video cracks me up. I like how he gives out orders to Alpha and Charlie lance when they're all dead. And yeah, he has time to go into the map while an Orion is firing at him? Crazy.


Oh, and one thing about the "meta"--it isn't what it is because some secret cabal gets together and makes some arbitrary decisions, but because players gravitate to what works most effectively. That guy mounted an LBX and AC2, 17 tons. He could have mounted an AC5/UAC5 combo for the same weight and been significantly more effective. All it requires is decent aim.

Edited by Kubernetes, 11 March 2014 - 03:13 PM.

[Odins Fist]

Odins Fist, on 11 March 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

The old "I like this weapon better, so it must be better" thing, doesn't make it the better weapon, it just means you are proficient with that weapon, that is all...

^ Cannot be said enough.

[SirLANsalot]

eh the mauler will be strongest with 4 UAC5 for pure dakka power. 4 UAC5 will be and AC20 power every shot, and even if one or two jam your still spitting out death, along with a pair of ERLL in the arms. It can be done on SSW already using TT rules, so for us it can be done, then again TT rules I can put UAC in the arms too lol.

[Wintersdark]

Escef, on 10 March 2014 - 10:15 PM, said:

I mean, what are your accuracy ratings with these weapons? I average in the 80-percentiles with beams, 70s with LBX and streaks, 50-60 with AC10 and 20, and in the low to mid 40s with UAC5, AC5, and AC2.

Ok, to this point, I've not directed anything at you, but to this the only response is likely going to insult you. I honestly, seriously, do not mean to insult you, but the reality here (and I'll make this concession):

If you are an appallingly bad shot, the LBX may be a better weapon for you than other ballistics.

Low to mid 40's is really, really bad. I mean, really bad. I assume, though, that you're spraying and praying at long range and that's why those are so low(as opposed to just being bad), while the AC20 and such is higher, because the AC2 and (U)AC5's are very accurate ballistics (that is, low bullet drop, high projectile velocity).

Anyways, watched video. 8 shots to drop a stock commando at 100m is atrocious. It's REALLY bad. But I don't know why you're focusing on 100m - I've said from the start that the LBX is reasonably effective within 270m (still not good, but reasonably effective). It's outside ranges like that where the spread makes it terrible against any target.

Do you honestly not see how terrible it is that it took 8 shots, from 22 tons of weaponry before ammo, doing 80 damage in total... To take down a stock commando with 16 armor on it's CT? 2 PPC's and an AC5 would have one-shot that Commando.

At 600m.

[Roland]

Wintersdark, on 11 March 2014 - 06:56 PM, said:

If you are an appallingly bad shot, the LBX may be a better weapon for you than other ballistics.

While this may be true, it's kind of a mistake to use the LBX just because someone is a bad shot.

Because if you use LBX, you will CONTINUE to be a bad shot... Because LBX won't really reward improvement in gunnery skills. Thus, you won't improve.

Meanwhile, using a more precise weapon, while perhaps harder for some new players compared to an LBX when it comes to simply landing SOME damage, will be far more useful to a player who has some degree of precision in his piloting and gunnery.

And really, the only way to get better with those weapons is to use them.

For that reason, using the LBX just because someone is a poor shot with other weapons isn't really a good reason to use it, because a better choice would be to simply improve one's gunnery skills.

Finally, if you really don't want to improve your gunnery, then the LBX really isn't even a good weapon when it comes to simply getting some damage spread around on a target. If that's what you want, then lasers are a vastly superior weapon than the LBX. They're hitscan, they are extremely light, and even a medium laser will be more effective at 300m than an LBX. And against slow or stationary targets, at least the lasers can be precise.. and if you get better with them, then they can be extremely precise against any target.

If you are a good shot, use AC's and PPC's.

If you are a bad shot, use lasers.

But really... there's never any situation where the LBX is a good choice. It's like a really heavy, huge laser that cannot ever be precisely aimed.

[Wintersdark]

Quote

In those kinds of games, the fact that LBX builds are so sub-optimal isn't as big an issue, because the other players are using equally bad builds.

Also - and I'll echo Odin here - you can do well with a bad weapon; but doing well with a bad weapon doesn't mean the bad weapon was good. It just means you're using the bad weapon well. Of course, one would do better with better weapons, but to each their own.

---

LBX's can kill, obviously. They're still throwing 10 damage each per shot. But there is no real situation where LBX's are superior to regular AC10's, or any other ballistics. Yes, you can do well with them, but you'd have done better with whatever else (assuming you've got non-terrible aim). The "but they're better if your target has stripped armor" argument is total crap. An AC10 is better at destroying items, and once you're pushing 22+ tons of weaponry, no matter what your target, the structure is going to vanish very quickly. The LBX's higher crit hit chance does result in very slightly higher structural damage, but not enough to counter the fact that many pellets aren't going to hit the correct target location anyways.

It's just simple math.

Edited by Wintersdark, 11 March 2014 - 07:10 PM.

[Escef]

Wintersdark, on 11 March 2014 - 06:56 PM, said:

Low to mid 40's is really, really bad. I mean, really bad. I assume, though, that you're spraying and praying at long range and that's why those are so low(as opposed to just being bad), while the AC20 and such is higher, because the AC2 and (U)AC5's are very accurate ballistics (that is, low bullet drop, high projectile velocity).

I use my AC5s as sustained fire weapons, mostly at close range with a striker build, I just hold down the trigger. Same for the 2 and UAC5. I'll snipe at range with them a bit, but I do most of my damage with them up close.

Edited by Escef, 11 March 2014 - 08:35 PM.

[Samual Kalkin]

Escef, on 10 March 2014 - 04:51 PM, said:

Try an Atlas or Catapult K2 with twin LB10X. Just try it.

I experimented with a D-DC 2xLB10X excessively over the course of a week. It's fun to screw around with, but an AC20 build is far more effective overall. The LB10X build just does not deliver where you need it too.

[Alcom Isst]

Looks a bit absurd. I wouldn't mind this being possible in game.