7 replies to this topic

[ImperialKnight]

Some Light/Medium mechs are "nerfed" by the fact that carrying an engine less than 250 rating forces them to carry external DHS which are only 1.4 efficient.

To balance the playing field, the first 10 heatsinks on a mech should always be 2.0 regarding of it being internal or external.

[Zerberus]

The first 10 DHS are already true doubles, regardless of whether inside or outside the engine. Only HS AFTER the 1st 10 are 1,4 rated.

This has been confirmed independently by numerous players over the course of the past 2-3 years, and is also reflected in Smurfy. If you wish to test it yourself, build, say, a jenner with a 250 and the same build with a 200 and 2 exDHS. and you will see teh difference is in the range of +/- 1% (total heat efficiency on smurfy), which is within the tolerance of rounding up vs. rounding down.

That said, those 2-3-4, however many outside the engine are only, like, 1.9 -1.95 or something. So they are minimally worse, but the difference is generallynegligibl in practice.

3 quickie (unviable) builds for demo purposes, using ERPPCs and MPL to get as hot as possible and skew the metrics as far as I can.

250XL:http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8a3afd64ebe57e5

200XL:http://mwo.smurfy-ne...dae77b9dcd54d9b

100XL:http://mwo.smurfy-ne...72964b7304822bc

Note how even the pitifully underengined 100XL Jenner (w 6 exDHS, specifically to illustrate my point) is just barely 3% lower on overall heat efficiency.... With 1,4 rated DHS as you claim, it would be easily 10% lower if not more.

So the presumed nerf you speak of is, in fact, a ghost, as the feature you ask for is already present and has been for a very long time.

Edited by Zerberus, 11 March 2014 - 06:01 PM.

[Deathlike]

Zerberus, on 11 March 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:

The first 10 DHS are already true doubles, regardless of whether inside or outside the engine.

This has been confirmed independently by numerous players over the course of the past 2-3 years, and is also reflected in smurfy- If you wish to test it yourself, build, say, a jenner with a 250 and the same build with a 200 and 2 exDHS. and you will see teh difference is in the range of +/- 1% (total heat efficiency).

That said, those 2-3-4, however many outside the engine are only, like, 1.95. So they are minimally worse, but the difference is negligible in practice.

The presumed nerf you speak of is, in fact, a ghost.

I think you're misunderstanding.

If you're not using an engine that is 250 or greater, you are "cutting off true DHS" that is part of the engine. Even smurfy's confirms this phenomenon

225 engine + 1 DHS != 250 engine.

51% Heat Eff - ERPPC, 225XL+1DHS:
SDR-5D

53% Heat Eff - ERPPC, 250XL:
SDR-5D

What is being asked is the first 10 DHS that is added to the mech (regardless of internal or external) should be 2.0 across the board. Everything after it is the normal external DHS value.

Edited by Deathlike, 11 March 2014 - 06:02 PM.

[Zerberus]

Deathlike, on 11 March 2014 - 05:52 PM, said:

I think you're misunderstanding.

If you're not using an engine that is 250 or greater, you are "cutting off true DHS" that is part of the engine. Even smurfy's confirms this phenomenon

I understand exactly what he was saying and asking for, but he fact of the matter is that the original premise of "external HS under 10 are 1,4rated " is completely false, as they are already much closer to 2.0 than they are to 1.4

All you really did was confirm my point and echo some of my statements with a different phrasing, which is that the difference between status quo and true 2.0 exDHS for the first 10 is all but irrelevant. Though you may have posted while I was finalizing teh post, ergo it may not have been there yet, as your quote alludes to.


Asked differently: do you honestly think that anybody would actually notice the difference between the 1.9 ish "under 10HS total" exDHS and true 2.0? So, best case scenario (100 rated engine) a whopping .6 or so grand total for the entire mech... so, additional threshold and dissipation equal to just over half a single SHS. So on a mech "supposed" to be running the equivalent of 20, you`re running 19.4 instead, likely due to a coding issue that may or may not be easy to fix.

I for my part very seriously doubt that anyone would notice, and either way the massive difference that the OP implies is most definitely not present. To use a single ERPPC in a "Held down" weapon group and an unleveled mech as a baseline, it takes 27 seconds to overheat on a 250 + w/o exDHS, and 21 to overheat on a 100 w/ 6exDHS. While those 6 seconds DO accumulate to once ERPPC shot in that case, as soon as you add in any other weapons, the margin shrinks rapidly. In the jenner examples posted, adding just 1 MPL takes the difference to barely 2 seconds (15 vs 13).

While it yould be "nice" for the 1st 10 to be "true" DHS, there are most certainly bigger fish to fry at this time, unless the change in code is as trivial as the difference it would make. Which conversely begs the question of "Why make the change in the first place other than to make the ****-retentive bean counters that mechlab more than they play happy?"

Edited by Zerberus, 11 March 2014 - 07:17 PM.

[no one]

Zerberus, on 11 March 2014 - 06:45 PM, said:

Spoiler

I understand exactly what he was saying and asking for, but he fact of the matter is that the original premise of "external HS under 10 are 1,4rated " is completely false, as they are already much closer to 2.0 than they are to 1.4

All you really did was confirm my point and echo some of my statements with a different phrasing, which is that the difference between status quo and true 2.0 exDHS for the first 10 is all but irrelevant. Though you may have posted while I was finalizing teh post, ergo it may not have been there yet, as your quote alludes to.


Asked differently: do you honestly think that anybody would actually notice the difference between the 1.9 ish "under 10HS total" exDHS and true 2.0? So, best case scenario (100 rated engine) a whopping .6 or so grand total for the entire mech... so, additional threshold and dissipation equal to just over half a single SHS. So on a mech "supposed" to be running the equivalent of 20, you`re running 19.4 instead, likely due to a coding issue that may or may not be easy to fix.

I for my part very seriously doubt that anyone would notice, and either way the massive difference that the OP implies is most definitely not present. To use a single ERPPC in a "Held down" weapon group and an unleveled mech as a baseline, it takes 27 seconds to overheat on a 250 + w/o exDHS, and 21 to overheat on a 100 w/ 6exDHS. While those 6 seconds DO accumulate to once ERPPC shot in that case, as soon as you add in any other weapons, the margin shrinks rapidly. In the jenner examples posted, adding just 1 MPL takes the difference to barely 2 seconds (15 vs 13).

While it yould be "nice" for the 1st 10 to be "true" DHS, there are most certainly bigger fish to fry at this time, unless the change in code is as trivial as the difference it would make. Which conversely begs the question of "Why make the change in the first place other than to make the ****-retentive bean counters that mechlab more than they play happy?"

That is demonstrably incorrect. The first ten double sinks that are integral to an engine are rated at 2.0.

Engines get one internal heat sink per 25 engine rating. As the engine rating increases, each heatsink added to the engine up to the first ten are integral to the engine, and act as 2.0 DHS. After that, each additional 25 engine rating gives you a 'slot' in your engine in which you can add heatsinks for no critical cost, but these only act as 1.4 rated heatsinks. Now here's the important part -

If an engine is rated below 250, only the heatsinks that are integral to the engine act as 2.0 heatsinks. A 100 rated engine only gets four integral 2.0 heat sinks, and must add 6 additional 'external' heat sinks which have 1.4 efficiency.

Per your example -
4 internal => 2.0 * 4 = 8
6 external => 1.4 * 6 = 8.4
Total = 16.4
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...72964b7304822bc

Now here's the same 'Mech with 17 single heat sinks.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...606a1bc329724f3

If you want an even example, try this -
(5 * 2) + (5*1.4) = 10 + 7 = 17 effective heatsinks
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...62259ec7015d923

17 shs
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0bce511d363056f

Add and remove weapons as you like.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Now that we have that cleared up, do I think that the first ten heat sinks should be doubles, regardless of whether they are integral? No, because that effects all 'Mechs, not just lights. If your intention is to curb the disadvantage of specific lights, then use a chassis specific solution. You could, for example, improve the 'cool run' skill for affected 'Mechs that lets them get the full use of their DHS when using their base engine rating. That way, skimping on the engine of your light negatively impacts your heat dissipation as with every other 'Mech.

Though if it were up to me I'd modify the current heat system to. . .well you can find my post on that if you are interested. Or I could start it as a separate suggestion thread. Really, I have a lot to say on the matter.

Edited by no one, 11 March 2014 - 09:52 PM.

[Deathlike]

Zerberus, on 11 March 2014 - 06:45 PM, said:

I understand exactly what he was saying and asking for, but he fact of the matter is that the original premise of "external HS under 10 are 1,4rated " is completely false, as they are already much closer to 2.0 than they are to 1.4

All you really did was confirm my point and echo some of my statements with a different phrasing, which is that the difference between status quo and true 2.0 exDHS for the first 10 is all but irrelevant. Though you may have posted while I was finalizing teh post, ergo it may not have been there yet, as your quote alludes to.


Asked differently: do you honestly think that anybody would actually notice the difference between the 1.9 ish "under 10HS total" exDHS and true 2.0? So, best case scenario (100 rated engine) a whopping .6 or so grand total for the entire mech... so, additional threshold and dissipation equal to just over half a single SHS. So on a mech "supposed" to be running the equivalent of 20, you`re running 19.4 instead, likely due to a coding issue that may or may not be easy to fix.

I for my part very seriously doubt that anyone would notice, and either way the massive difference that the OP implies is most definitely not present. To use a single ERPPC in a "Held down" weapon group and an unleveled mech as a baseline, it takes 27 seconds to overheat on a 250 + w/o exDHS, and 21 to overheat on a 100 w/ 6exDHS. While those 6 seconds DO accumulate to once ERPPC shot in that case, as soon as you add in any other weapons, the margin shrinks rapidly. In the jenner examples posted, adding just 1 MPL takes the difference to barely 2 seconds (15 vs 13).

While it yould be "nice" for the 1st 10 to be "true" DHS, there are most certainly bigger fish to fry at this time, unless the change in code is as trivial as the difference it would make. Which conversely begs the question of "Why make the change in the first place other than to make the ****-retentive bean counters that mechlab more than they play happy?"

The short answer is yes.

The long answer is that I give a damn. Plus, the non BJ-1X mechs are based critically around energy (particularly the BJ-3).

So, to say that "minor difference" doesn't matter is grave disservice to what I think about the heat system in general. This is not specific to light mechs, but it DOES affect them too. I have built and improved upon the stock BJ-3 build before, and the "missing" DHS damn well matters to me because of this design.

What I was grinding the BJ-3 for the "BJ tourney", this is what I came up with:
BJ-3

The only major difference between then and now is the heat.

Semi-comparable BJ-1X (since it has an increased engine cap):
BJ-1X

The idea that it doesn't make a difference is full of BS... I know enough about managing heat... and every freaking point of heat dissipated matters. I don't complain much about the dakka, so when it comes to little details like this, I get very fussy about heat.

Edited by Deathlike, 11 March 2014 - 09:59 PM.

[wanderer]

Or, you know- we could simply get rid of the asinine concept that while all DHS are DHS, some are more equal than others.

After all, SHS don't seem to have this magical loss of effectiveness outside an engine.

(That thanks to heat scaling the SHS is virtually useless is another issue entirely.)

[Curccu]

Zerberus, on 11 March 2014 - 06:45 PM, said:

I understand exactly what he was saying and asking for, but he fact of the matter is that the original premise of "external HS under 10 are 1,4rated " is completely false, as they are already much closer to 2.0 than they are to 1.4

All you really did was confirm my point and echo some of my statements with a different phrasing, which is that the difference between status quo and true 2.0 exDHS for the first 10 is all but irrelevant. Though you may have posted while I was finalizing teh post, ergo it may not have been there yet, as your quote alludes to.


Asked differently: do you honestly think that anybody would actually notice the difference between the 1.9 ish "under 10HS total" exDHS and true 2.0? So, best case scenario (100 rated engine) a whopping .6 or so grand total for the entire mech... so, additional threshold and dissipation equal to just over half a single SHS. So on a mech "supposed" to be running the equivalent of 20, you`re running 19.4 instead, likely due to a coding issue that may or may not be easy to fix.

I for my part very seriously doubt that anyone would notice, and either way the massive difference that the OP implies is most definitely not present. To use a single ERPPC in a "Held down" weapon group and an unleveled mech as a baseline, it takes 27 seconds to overheat on a 250 + w/o exDHS, and 21 to overheat on a 100 w/ 6exDHS. While those 6 seconds DO accumulate to once ERPPC shot in that case, as soon as you add in any other weapons, the margin shrinks rapidly. In the jenner examples posted, adding just 1 MPL takes the difference to barely 2 seconds (15 vs 13).

While it yould be "nice" for the 1st 10 to be "true" DHS, there are most certainly bigger fish to fry at this time, unless the change in code is as trivial as the difference it would make. Which conversely begs the question of "Why make the change in the first place other than to make the ****-retentive bean counters that mechlab more than they play happy?"

Don't watch smurfys silly heat efficiency %, instead click Weaponlab-button over the mech and in there check Dissipation...