34 replies to this topic

[Laconicus]

I know everyone has their favourite mechs and it’s often a great story why they are so. Many posts have listed why they must be included in the game but I will not be so bold as to demand anything just suggest two mechs that brought great joy when I played them in the board game days.
I will say they are not the best in their respective weight class or perhaps the most memorable but great examples of rank and file mechs that made the game so great.
The Panther and the Hermes, god they were fun. If the great machine code gods are listening you could do worse much worse in fact. Their weight class was fun to play and they never came across as OP.
I am open to comments or similar suggestions around that tonnage. Do other people remember them fondly or does my age show and the rose coloured glasses just too heavily tinted ?

[blacklp]

The panther would be good in this game.

[DarkDevilDancer]

As much as I like the panther it'd be slow from a stock build they'd have to let you stick in a much bigger engine to make it survivable in mwo.

[blacklp]

Jenner D.
It can be done with ease.
I see no reason to not allow a max 295, 300.
1 ERPPC, 2 SSRMS, Beagle, and JJs.
Would make a good harasser.

[Malleus011]

If a Panther won't survive in MWO, then they'd implemented the game badly.

[Bishop Steiner]

Malleus011, on 10 March 2014 - 07:05 AM, said:

If a Panther won't survive in MWO, then they'd implemented the game badly.

And this is a newsflash, how?

[Bishop Steiner]

[blacklp]

Good old bishop
Although if the head could look more pantherish...

Edited by blacklp, 10 March 2014 - 08:54 AM.

[MonkeyDCecil]

I think the Panther needs to be the next light for sure. I like the Hermes as will. But I think the Panther is a more iconic mech. I mean House Kurita uses the hell out of the Panther. I do not know much about the Hermes. And last but not least. We need the Wolfhound. My favorite light me of all time.

[General Taskeen]

I would like it, it will be crucial for selecting in certain Stock battles for private matches. It would be useful in specific Stock Matches of light/medium lances. The Panther was typically paired with faster light Mechs, the Panther is slow and heavily armored, while the Jenner is faster and lightly armored.

Its a shame though that PGI decided to give the PPC 0 damage in min range, with how slow it is, it wouldn't have much chance to get to the proper range, even against other stock Mechs. Another issue is with the way jumpjets are programmed, jumping of "4 MP" in any direction while standing still is also missing, which offset the Panther's slow speed by quickly jumping to a location.

Edited by General Taskeen, 10 March 2014 - 09:13 AM.

[Escef]

General Taskeen, on 10 March 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

I would like it, it will be crucial for selecting in certain Stock battles for private matches. It would be useful in specific Stock Matches of light/medium lances. The Panther was typically paired with faster light Mechs, the Panther is slow and heavily armored, while the Jenner is faster and lightly armored.

In stock matches? Eh, maybe. Outside of that, the Panther doesn't have much to recommend itself for MWO. If the max speed ends up with the same ratio compared to the base as for the FS9, it would have an engine cap of around 195 or 200 (that equates toaround 101 kph with speed tweak). That and there isn't a lot of variety in the Panthers, they're all 1 big energy weapon in the right arm and a 4-tube launcher in the CT. What do you do with that? 2 and 2? 3 and 1? 2 and 1 (or 1 and 2) with twin AMS, or maybe a third module slot?

Other than it's redonkulous ground speed, the Hermes does not exactly offer much, either. WooHoo, 3 energy hardpoints on a light, ground breaking stuff here!

I'd rather see the Javelin. While the Fire Javelin variant is really close to the Firestarter, the base model is a reasonably fast light missile boat with jump jets. I could easily see someone going twin LRM10 (or quad 5) on that. Or Streaks. The only possible downside being that it might make the Oxide look horribly bad.

Pretty much all of the remaining non-unseen lights won't bring anything new to the table.

[HammerSwarm]

General Taskeen, on 10 March 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

I would like it, it will be crucial for selecting in certain Stock battles for private matches. It would be useful in specific Stock Matches of light/medium lances. The Panther was typically paired with faster light Mechs, the Panther is slow and heavily armored, while the Jenner is faster and lightly armored.

Its a shame though that PGI decided to give the PPC 0 damage in min range, with how slow it is, it wouldn't have much chance to get to the proper range, even against other stock Mechs. Another issue is with the way jumpjets are programmed, jumping of "4 MP" in any direction while standing still is also missing, which offset the Panther's slow speed by quickly jumping to a location.

These mechs both fit a role and should both be added.

I am a crab man myself (check the sig!!!!) but I could support a Panther and the Hermes II.

In my mind they are both specialist mechs where a the availible mechs at that weight class skew towards faster hit and run mechs.

Role warfare people: The Panther is a long range support light. In my mind it's not much larger than a spider, but not much faster than most assaults. This would give it a role on the battle field where it could sneak around, and pop out at the worst moments and bring the fire power of larger mechs to bear.

This could be re-enforced by PGI with additional cooling or better acceleration for moving in and out of danger quickly. Cap the engine to keep the speed down below 100kph.

Sure it's a specialist mech but it would appeal to a whole new segment of players current light mechs don't.

The Hermes II is also unique in that it would be a humanoid 40 tonner. In my mind it would be geared a bit more towards brawling in it's application in game than the cicada and would fill in that role at 40 tons.

[Escef]

HammerSwarm, on 10 March 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

Role warfare people: The Panther is a long range support light.

See, what you're doing here is assuming that the role it fills in table top will be even remotely like what people would do with it in MWO. That's blatantly foolish.

CN9-A. Table top is a mid-range trooper mech. In MWO it was most popularly used as an SRM based striker/brawler.

CPLT-A1. Table top is an LRM support mech. In MWO it was most popularly used as the 36SRM Splatcat.

Jagermech (pick one). Table top is a long range direct fire support and anti-aircraft mech. In MWO it was most popularly used as the 2xAC20 BoomJager.

BJ-1. Table top is a long range direct fire support mech. In MWO it was most popularly used to deliver AC20 rounds.

CPLT-K2. Table top is long range energy direct fire support. In MWO most popular builds focus on the ballistic slots.

Yes, some mechs are really forced into certain roles. High engine caps and low tonnage make most lights into striker/skirmishers. Stalkers, Highlanders, and Atlases are too slow to be anything but ranged support or brawlers, skirmisher/striker builds are pretty much out of the question. Meta makes PPCs or large lasers paired with AC5/10/20 optimum. But still, you can rig most mechs between 50 and 75 tons to fill almost any role. Hell, I've got my Orion K rigged as an quad LL striker sporting a 360XL, but my VA is an AC20 based brawler with a 300 standard.

So, yeah, never judge a mech's role in MWO upon what the mech does in table top. It's just not a good predictor.

Edited by Escef, 10 March 2014 - 10:14 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

HammerSwarm, on 10 March 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

These mechs both fit a role and should both be added.

I am a crab man myself (check the sig!!!!) but I could support a Panther and the Hermes II.

In my mind they are both specialist mechs where a the availible mechs at that weight class skew towards faster hit and run mechs.

Role warfare people: The Panther is a long range support light. In my mind it's not much larger than a spider, but not much faster than most assaults. This would give it a role on the battle field where it could sneak around, and pop out at the worst moments and bring the fire power of larger mechs to bear.

This could be re-enforced by PGI with additional cooling or better acceleration for moving in and out of danger quickly. Cap the engine to keep the speed down below 100kph.

Sure it's a specialist mech but it would appeal to a whole new segment of players current light mechs don't.

The Hermes II is also unique in that it would be a humanoid 40 tonner. In my mind it would be geared a bit more towards brawling in it's application in game than the cicada and would fill in that role at 40 tons.

For the Panther to have a chance, it would need 3-4 things:
1) ECM capability. This would help it in it's City Fighting and LR Support roles, and help compensate for the low speed.
2) High JJ and Engine caps. (well, subjectively. 6-7 JJ max, and be able to break 100 kph)
3) Griffin level agility
4) Firestarter like hit boxes.

and some hardpoint inflation would not hurt, either.

Something that could be upgraded to something akin to this

Give it 2 Missile points in the ct, max 6 tubes each, 3 energy hardpoints in the RA. Thus a person could run around with an ER LArge and 2 mediums instead of the PPC.

Still not saying it would be ideal, but with a few tweaks, it is viable.

[Dawnstealer]

I'd like Panthers to be in the game so I could bash their heads in with this:

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 March 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

Give it 2 Missile points in the ct, max 6 tubes each, 3 energy hardpoints in the RA. Thus a person could run around with an ER LArge and 2 mediums instead of the PPC.

Still not saying it would be ideal, but with a few tweaks, it is viable.

If the Panther won't get the warp-speed of most other 35 tonners (you mentioned it would be at least 100, but didn't say the exact cap), more than just 5 hardpoints might be necessary. Especially considering how the best Jenners have 6 hardpoints and Firestarters have 8... I'd go for ~6-7 (in the case of your variant, 2M in the CT and 4-5E in the RA).

----

My main concern with Panthers (besides speed) is a potential lack of variant variety, even with hardpoint inflation included. This is because the missiles are always carried in the CT, which means you can't have more than 2 missile hardpoints on any given variant (without piggy bending the rules and adding weapons to a location that the stock config never mounted weapons in). So we can have one variant with 1M in the CT and a bunch of E in the arm, another with 2M in the CT and fewer E in the arm, and then I dunno what to do with the third. Maybe the third could have a higher engine cap but fewer hardpoints?

Edited by FupDup, 10 March 2014 - 10:37 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 10 March 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

If the Panther won't get the warp-speed of most other 35 tonners (you mentioned it would be at least 100, but didn't say the exact cap), more than just 5 hardpoints might be necessary. Especially considering how the best Jenners have 6 hardpoints and Firestarters have 8... I'd go for ~6-7 (in the case of your variant, 2M in the CT and 4-5E in the RA).

----

My main concern with Panthers (besides speed) is a potential lack of variant variety, even with hardpoint inflation included. This is because the missiles are always carried in the CT, which means you can't have more than 2 missile hardpoints on any given variant. So we can have one variant with 1M in the CT and a bunch of E in the arm, another with 2M in the CT and fewer E in the arm, and then I dunno what to do with the third. Maybe the third have a higher engine cap but fewer hardpoints?

Possibly. I'd even not cry with some hardpoint Migration. Make one with the Missiles in the side torso? But yeah, something, as there are exactly 3 models available to my knowledge in timeline. Another scenario that could have been at least partially offset by sized hardpoints, being as only it and the Wolfhound would be able to mount large lasers and PPCs, then.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 March 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

Possibly. I'd even not cry with some hardpoint Migration. Make one with the Missiles in the side torso? But yeah, something, as there are exactly 3 models available to my knowledge in timeline. Another scenario that could have been at least partially offset by sized hardpoints, being as only it and the Wolfhound would be able to mount large lasers and PPCs, then.

Or, on a side note, if we had the compact gyro we could free up 2 slots in the CT for more missiles. (Would also be nice for the AWS-9M, or shoving an ERPPC in a Locust's CT and naming it "Mister Mosquito").

Edited by FupDup, 10 March 2014 - 10:44 AM.

[HammerSwarm]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 March 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

For the Panther to have a chance, it would need 3-4 things:
1) ECM capability. This would help it in it's City Fighting and LR Support roles, and help compensate for the low speed.
2) High JJ and Engine caps. (well, subjectively. 6-7 JJ max, and be able to break 100 kph)
3) Griffin level agility
4) Firestarter like hit boxes.

and some hardpoint inflation would not hurt, either.

I like the JJ, I like the Agility, Slight build is a must that's what I was eluding to when I mentioned the spider but I am glad you said it. ECM would be fine, as the newest 35 ton mech with it I think a lack of a speed shield would warrant it.

Speed is where I would quibble but it's negotiable, I think right around 100 would be a good max speed to prevent it from being abused as a 35 ton spider...to differentiate it from the fire starter. This is why I thought an acceleration boost would be great to make is very nimble but not as fast.

I'd buy three! common PGI, doo it.

Edited by HammerSwarm, 10 March 2014 - 02:16 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

HammerSwarm, on 10 March 2014 - 02:13 PM, said:

I like the JJ, I like the Agility, Slight build is a must that's what I was eluding to when I mentioned the spider but I am glad you said it. ECM would be fine, as the newest 35 ton mech with it I think a lack of a speed shield would warrant it.

Speed is where I would quibble but it's negotiable, I think right around 100 would be a good max speed to prevent it from being abused as a 35 ton spider...to differentiate it from the fire starter. This is why I thought an acceleration boost would be great to make is very nimble but not as fast.

I'd buy three! common PGI, doo it.

Spiders cruise 150+. Breaking 100 (or capped at, either way) ain't really in the same boat, lol! I was referring more to YLW like speed, where it hits 106 with speed tweak.