24 replies to this topic

[Necroledo]

Hi there!

I'm pretty much still a noob, only a week of playing MWO. I succesfully bough a HBK-4P some days ago and got a good loadout of STD 275, 6 ML, 3 SL, many DHS and Endo-Steel; it's quite fast, hits pretty hard and cools down nicely (40% cooling efficiency). I also got some Basic skills for it: acceleration, maximun heat and heat cooldown.

I recently started to play around with Mechlab Smurfy to try and get a different loadout with 4 Large Lasers instead of the 6 Medium ones. After doing some numbers, found that 4 LL do a little bit more damage than 7 ML (36 instead of 30 with 6 ML, or 35 with 7 ML) and at a quite longer range. That sounded cool so I went ahead and got a pretty funny fit with the same engine and a head flamer instead of the 3 SL.

However... I wans't realizing Smurfy doesn't account armor values, you have to enter them manually. So my awesome 4 LL loadout was not possible. I've tried and tried, but the best I could get is STD 200, flamer and 36% efficiency, or STD 205, flamer and 34%, with somehow acceptable armor distribution (flamer is just for the lulz; I could put 2 SL or 1 ML instead, but with lower efficiency).

I'm getting pretty much desperate. STD 200 or 205 means sluggish for me (there's a good reason I got a STD 275). I could throw DSH's off to get a better engine, but that would mean lower efficiency. And 3 LL wouldn't be that good compared to 6 ML (higher range but lower damage).

So I ask you, fellow Mechwarriors, for help. What would you recommend me? Have you ever tried a 4P with 4 LL? Should I just stop dreaming? Many thanks in advance!

[JimEvolved]

You should check out some of the 4P builds at http://www.mechspecs.com/

Nothing rated 5* that uses LL, but one 5* is a 2 PPC build (which would give you some range) and there are a couple of 4* builds that include at least one LL as part of the build.

[AdultPuppetShow]

I wouldn't suggest using more than three large lasers on any build. Ghost heat kicks in on more than two, but three is still manageable.

Just type "ghost heat mwo" into Google if you don't know what I'm talking about.

[TercieI]

AdultPuppetShow, on 13 March 2014 - 01:22 PM, said:

I wouldn't suggest using more than three large lasers on any build. Ghost heat kicks in on more than two, but three is still manageable.

Just type "ghost heat mwo" into Google if you don't know what I'm talking about.

I generally agree, but you can make a 4LL build and fire them 2/2 It's touchy, but doable.

[Ignatz22]

With its speed and phenomenal torso twisting, the Hunchback is a great brawling medium, so while I understand the desire to get the extra range and damage the Large lasers offer, consider that the heat will also be greater and thus the DPS lower in combat. Try one or two Large Lasers for the initial encounter, when the range is greater, then switch to the mediums when the opposition closes.
Medium lasers combined with the Hunchback's speed allows it to get to the flank and deal some good damage, as you well know. Stay close to the heavies and support them in quickly taking down the target and the team will do well!

[AdultPuppetShow]

Terciel1976, on 13 March 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

I generally agree, but you can make a 4LL build and fire them 2/2 It's touchy, but doable.

Well yeah, I used to run four large lasers on my K2, but I could put a 315 XL engine and 19 double heats sinks on it.

[TercieI]

AdultPuppetShow, on 13 March 2014 - 01:42 PM, said:

Well yeah, I used to run four large lasers on my K2, but I could put a 315 XL engine and 19 double heats sinks on it.

Ah, yeah, I took "on any build" to mean "on any mech." Sorry. My bad.

[Sug]

Only 4?

[AdultPuppetShow]

Sug, on 13 March 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

Only 4?

That video was before ghost heat or overheating having any adverse effect besides temporarily shutting down.

Edited by AdultPuppetShow, 13 March 2014 - 02:05 PM.

[Necroledo]

Many thanks for the fast replies, all of you! And extra thanks to you, JimEvolved, for the link (browsing loadouts atm).

Well, I'll try and see what can I do with 3 LL (certainly a bigger engine!). I'll moan the loss of 3 points worth of damage to the 6 ML, but I can put 1 ML in the head, a STD 240 and still get better efficiency than my original build... Let's see, let's see.

But please, keep the comments coming! All help is welcome

[TercieI]

Sorry if this is too late or seems obvious, but the best thing you can do is use Smurfy to help you figure out builds (it would have quickly made clear that 20 tons of LL vs. 7 tons of ML was going to cost you a lot somewhere, for instance). The in-game mechlab is challenging (to say the least). I build all my mechs in Smurfy and then do "final assembly" in MWO.

FWIW, this is my 4P: Marian. It's easily my favorite Hunchback. If I wanted to use LL, it would probably look like something like this: LL 4P, but I frankly don't love that build (even though I like LL more than many players).

Edited by Terciel1976, 13 March 2014 - 03:05 PM.

[Redshift2k5]

Belatedly, I've always loved quad Large Lasers, but on much heavier mechs. My K2 has been outfitted with 4xLL for like, two years.

[Koniving]

Necroledo, on 13 March 2014 - 01:06 PM, said:

So I ask you, fellow Mechwarriors, for help. What would you recommend me? Have you ever tried a 4P with 4 LL? Should I just stop dreaming? Many thanks in advance!

4 LL Hunchback 4P with all but 2 points of armor.

A small tip. Set them up to fire in 2 separate groups. One to track your arms. The other to fire from the torso. Do not fire all 4 of them at the same time, the heat is immensely punished.

The XL engine you can get free from a Shadowhawk 5M, Griffin 3M, or Wolverine 7K.

Otherwise the engine alone will cost as much as another Hunchback.

Do not take the armor allocation literally, I just pressed "max armor."

That said....

Some tips: 9 SPL. Very rapid fire, chain-fired just 6 of them are non-stop rapid fire and sound awesome. You can put in a huge standard engine easily.

Just 6 SPL = 20.4 per shot, and can fire 3 times (61.2 damage) by the time the AC/20 can fire twice for a Hunchback 4G.
9 SPL = 30.6 per shot and 91.8 damage in that same time period. Not to mention no punishments by ghost heat / heat scale.

Mix lasers. You'd be surprised.

Then again, this is my 4P.

[luxebo]

I tried to run 4P with 4 ER LL when Victor mentioned a build like that a long time ago (and after I bought SHD-5M for XL 275), but I think it's very gimmicky, hard to use (very hard with the XL and the amount of lasers) and it's much better to use a group of medium or small pulse lasers instead.

Edit: Koniving's build is pretty much spot on without the arm armor and moving all those lasers to that torso in order to have an asymmetrical build with a dead shield part of a mech (similar to those 733C poptarts that they all love.)

Edited by luxebo, 13 March 2014 - 03:08 PM.

[Koniving]

Truth be told, a 4 LL build is more suitable to the Hunchback 4SP. This way you can equip all the LL to the arms for better target tracking and effect on target.
4 LL HBK 4SP again ignore the armor allocation.

[Necroledo]

Koniving, on 13 March 2014 - 03:06 PM, said:

4 LL Hunchback 4P with all but 2 points of armor.

A small tip. Set them up to fire in 2 separate groups. One to track your arms. The other to fire from the torso. Do not fire all 4 of them at the same time, the heat is immensely punished.

The XL engine you can get free from a Shadowhawk 5M, Griffin 3M, or Wolverine 7K.

Otherwise the engine alone will cost as much as another Hunchback.

Do not take the armor allocation literally, I just pressed "max armor."

That said....

Some tips: 9 SPL. Very rapid fire, chain-fired just 6 of them are non-stop rapid fire and sound awesome. You can put in a huge standard engine easily.

Just 6 SPL = 20.4 per shot, and can fire 3 times (61.2 damage) by the time the AC/20 can fire twice for a Hunchback 4G.
9 SPL = 30.6 per shot and 91.8 damage in that same time period. Not to mention no punishments by ghost heat / heat scale.

Mix lasers. You'd be surprised.

Then again, this is my 4P.

You gave me ideas
Seems like the only real way to fit those 4 LL is with XL engines... Well, in my most recent matches I didn't lose torso parts apart from the center, so I might try that once... Koniving, how does a Hunchback with XL engine feel? Perhaps maxing that torso armor as possible... I might try this fit, although it requires you to expose yourself more in order to get more shots in target... Btw, I tried lowering the engine to XL 265 and it can then fit another DHS (38% efficiency). I might try this loadout. After all, if you're using LL, most of the time you'd be away from most trouble to your torso, and probably popping over a hill, only head and hunch exposed ^w^

Pulse lasers... I wanted to give them a try (6 MPL in RT for example), but the reduced range... Well, those 6 MPL pack almost as much punch as 4 LL, with 140 meters less than ML... Can't decide if I want to get closer or not, lol. Something I'd like to try out, too. Due to reduced cost, I'll start with this I think.
SPL feel like too close for me, I'm not that good at close quarters.

Thanks again guys!

EDIT: wanted to post a loadout but can't link it properly -.-

6 MPL: 1 on each arm, 1 on head, 3 on hunch
STD 260 engine
Rest is DHS; efficiciency at 35%

What about that?

Edited by Necroledo, 13 March 2014 - 04:15 PM.

[Koniving]

Not as good as they used to. Before you could throw 99% of the armor to the "front" of the "hunch" and feel invincible, because the "front" of your right torso was the left side, the front, the right side, and about 3/4ths of the back, too. Now they "fixed" that and so the right armor balance is a bit harder to find.

In general you should treat Hunchbacks akin to lore -- they are urban brawlers. They use the buildings of the city to protect themselves, bobbing and weaving through buildings to unload their payload and move before the return fire comes.

You can try the hill humping technique. I personally avoid hills like the plague in a Hunchback. If I can't be in the city, then I'm using Atlases and Stalkers as my buildings.

4 LL (if they were not punished) would give you 36 damage. That's 28 heat (two spurts of 14)
6 MPL is not punished but.. It's 6 damage per laser 36, but 5 heat per MPL so that's 30 heat. Much lighter but if this was Mechwarrior 3 that'd be instant shutdown every time you pulled the trigger. But MWO heat for smaller lasers is higher (and lower for larger lasers).

But studying it further.
You need 1 full second on target to do the damage with LLs. Since you cannot fire them all at once, you need 2 seconds (1 for the first set and 1 for the second set). The advantage here is the range.
If you could fire it all at once, you'd have to wait an additional 3.25 seconds to fire again (so 4.25 seconds in total if you could fire it all at once).

For the 6 MPL you have to hold the target for 6/10ths of a second. Since you can fire it all at once you can get it in a single shot and run like the wind! It is ready to fire again in 3 seconds after it finished (but in total from when you pressed the button, 3.6 seconds).

I think the 6 MPL would be the better option. You could even add in some back-up lasers, too.

Or if you're not using arm crosshairs yet (the two crosshair setup) then you could put in 7 MPL, strip the arm armor, and channel it all into heatsinks.

[Necroledo]

Koniving, on 13 March 2014 - 04:17 PM, said:

Not as good as they used to. Before you could throw 99% of the armor to the "front" of the "hunch" and feel invincible, because the "front" of your right torso was the left side, the front, the right side, and about 3/4ths of the back, too. Now they "fixed" that and so the right armor balance is a bit harder to find.

In general you should treat Hunchbacks akin to lore -- they are urban brawlers. They use the buildings of the city to protect themselves, bobbing and weaving through buildings to unload their payload and move before the return fire comes.

You can try the hill humping technique. I personally avoid hills like the plague in a Hunchback. If I can't be in the city, then I'm using Atlases and Stalkers as my buildings.

4 LL (if they were not punished) would give you 36 damage. That's 28 heat (two spurts of 14)
6 MPL is not punished but.. It's 6 damage per laser 36, but 5 heat per MPL so that's 30 heat. Much lighter but if this was Mechwarrior 3 that'd be instant shutdown every time you pulled the trigger. But MWO heat for smaller lasers is higher (and lower for larger lasers).

But studying it further.
You need 1 full second on target to do the damage with LLs. Since you cannot fire them all at once, you need 2 seconds (1 for the first set and 1 for the second set). The advantage here is the range.
If you could fire it all at once, you'd have to wait an additional 3.25 seconds to fire again (so 4.25 seconds in total if you could fire it all at once).

For the 6 MPL you have to hold the target for 6/10ths of a second. Since you can fire it all at once you can get it in a single shot and run like the wind! It is ready to fire again in 3 seconds after it finished (but in total from when you pressed the button, 3.6 seconds).

I think the 6 MPL would be the better option. You could even add in some back-up lasers, too.

Or if you're not using arm crosshairs yet (the two crosshair setup) then you could put in 7 MPL, strip the arm armor, and channel it all into heatsinks.

Yeah, I'm recently learning to hug to cover, and loving to do so before I was getting killed really fast, now I'm usually the last one alive and getting assists, destroys and even some kills.

This is a fit I just made (posted it above). What do you think?

6 MPL: 1 on each arm, 1 on head, 3 on hunch
STD 260 engine
Rest is DHS; efficiciency at 35%

Of course, lasers can be re-allocated at will.

[Koniving]

Oh and one more thing. I noticed you said 140 meters less. That's at maximum range.

Note that "maximum range" is the 0.0001 damage range. In other words you might as well not shoot at that range.

In reality, the full damage range is 270 for ML, and only 70 less for MPL. If you're shooting beyond that range you're wasting your time, your heat, and possibly setting yourself up to die anyway.

Seems fairly solid. Do remember with an XL engine if you lose the side torso you are dead. So it won't matter if it's all in one spot; though the less 'focused' your firepower is, the less likely that part will get immediately destroyed.

[Necroledo]

Koniving, on 13 March 2014 - 04:25 PM, said:

Oh and one more thing. I noticed you said 140 meters less. That's at maximum range.

Note that "maximum range" is the 0.0001 damage range. In other words you might as well not shoot at that range.

In reality, the full damage range is 270 for ML, and only 70 less for MPL. If you're shooting beyond that range you're wasting your time, your heat, and possibly setting yourself up to die anyway.

Seems fairly solid. Do remember with an XL engine if you lose the side torso you are dead. So it won't matter if it's all in one spot; though the less 'focused' your firepower is, the less likely that part will get immediately destroyed.

Then I have a new goal for my CBills Although this fit has an STD engine, not XL. Taking note though, specially for the 4 LL variant (although everyone is going to shoot the hunch, won't they?). Thanks for the help!

Edited by Necroledo, 13 March 2014 - 04:37 PM.