20 replies to this topic

[Sargon X]

Can anyone recommend a detailed tutorial on mech loadouts? I purchased the JR7-F(C) mech, but when I go to configure it I'm completely lost and I don't want to spend a bunch of C-bills on things I shouldn't be spending them on. Is there a comprehensive guide that explains how to use the interface and gives strategies to create effective loadouts?

[luxebo]

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab This is a good tool to use in order to pre-build mechs for the game. Also, the UI is somewhat complicated, but they did post a usage help video. Another area you can look is mechspecs, which is a forum dedicated to sharing and finding potential builds, which use smurfy. http://www.mechspecs.com/forum/

Just a couple things to know, I think you already completed the Cadet Bonus, yes? And you know that you spent MC or real world money on the Champion mech as well, right? The Champion mech comes with a 10% XP bonus, and the hero mechs (if you choose to get one later, I suggest Oxide if you want one) come with 30% C-bill bonus, and some other goodies alongside. Another thing you must realize if not already known is the mastering of a mech. You need 3 variants to master a chassis. All 4 Jenners (not including JR7-D(S) or JR7-F(C) as they fall in those respective variants) are solid, so you should choose what you desire. Share the XL 300 with all 3 builds, as it's a good engine, keep it.

For the JR7-F(C) itself, I think the general Champion build is alright, except you will want to either replace the smalls with mediums or add small pulses instead of all that. The engine is solid again, the armor max out, the DHS spread around the mech, there is a need for one JJ, and no need for anything else really, that should be all for the JR7-F(C), which would take minimal time to build up.

Hope I helped summarize what can be usable to help build the JR7-F(C), and good luck in the battlefield.

[IraqiWalker]

Everything that Luxebo posted is spot on, pay attention to that.

As far as mech building goes though, this is what I can tell you when you are designing a build:

1- You need a minimum of 10 heatsinks to operate the mech(anything less and you can't launch)

2- Double heatsinks are mandatory for almost every mech save for maybe 3 variants in the entire game (LCT-1V, SDR-5K, Jaeger with 6 MGs and nothing else. I might be forgetting one or two more, but aside from those every mech should have DHS)

3- Pay attention to how many weapon groups you will end up having once done. You can easily make all the weapons fire from one group, but you will explode after a couple of shots, from heat damage. Figure out what you are comfortable with (usually L.Mouse Button for left arm, R.Mouse Button for Right arm is simple enough, with a possible third group for torso and head weapons)

4- Pay attention to your role, if you plan on being a long range mech, then you can afford to have XL engines in there, even if they are traditionally not viable (Stalkers should never have XL, unless they are going to be a long range mech.) The reasoning is that you will be far from the main fight and thus won't get hit as often, and need to relocate a lot to provide optimal support. On the other hand, if you are going to be a brawler, then you want a standard engine.

Lights are about the only exception to the rule as you should have XLs in them 90% of the time.

5- Pay attention to the possible heat generation. Smurfy's will always show you the heat efficiency for alpha striking (the game UI does the same thing too) However, Your heat efficiency when firing only 2 medium lasers are very different from firing 2MLs plus 2 ERLLs. So use this heat simulator website as well to test how your weapon groups will actually function with their heat.

6- crit padding. If you have precious items and weapons in one part of your mech that you would rather not lose to crit hits from things like MGs, throw other things next to them. If all you have is 3 slots of your XL engine in your side torso with nothing else, then every crit on that side torso is guaranteed to hit the engine and kill you sooner. On the other hand, if you threw a couple of DHS in there (6 extra slots) now your engine has a 1 in 3 chance of getting hit. That's a 300% improvement for your life expectancy. Same thing applies to Gauss rifles in the Side Torso.

7- Can you do the same with a lighter engine of the same type, and get more heatsinks/ammo in there? If so, do so. Losing 10 Kph from your max speed is insignificant in an assault rigged to be an LRM boat if that means you can stick 2 or 3 more tons of ammo in there.

8- Max armor, or as close as possible to max. If you need to shave some armor from your mech, start with the cockpit, NOT the legs. People usually know you have ammo in your legs, so they will go for them HARD. This goes double for Victors as they use JJs to spread damage, and end up putting a lot of damage on their legs, where they have 4 tons of ammo sitting, just waiting to explode. So with Victors you always have max armor on legs. (12 armor on your cockpit is good enough, if you need to shave that much to keep max armor everywhere else).

9- Artemis is useless on SRM4s and 2s. they already have minimal spread, put it on SRM6 launchers if you've got the slots and weight to afford it. I usually don't but that's more of a personal choice. Artemis is useful on LRMs of all sizes, but I usually prefer having extra tons of ammo to having Artemis (again, personal preference here)

10- Last, but most important. Pay attention to your own (or your client, if you are building for some else) piloting quirks, and doctor the build to fit them better. Meta builds don't mean a thing if you can't use them effectively.


If you follow these 10 points, I can guarantee you will have a good experience with your mech.

[Koniving]

This video doesn't necessarily explain how to use the interface, but it essentially builds a mech before your eyes from stock to a fun custom rig while mentioning everything that's being done (changing armor, swapping the engine, putting on bigger guns, freeing up weight, checking heatsink count, etc.) and then plays it into a match. If you don't mind some adult language it should be a good, fairly quick watch.

After the first match (which shows what happens when you run into a group on your own), mech skill unlocks is demonstrated, followed by a two player lance in river city with the turrets.

As for the evolution of that design (as no first design is perfect), we come to this where the Firestarter fights toe to toe against a healthy AC/20 Blackjack and wins in a standing brawl at 10 meters. (Just a hint, a standing brawl against a superior opponent is NEVER a good idea; always move.) Then later on, a brawling, jumping light with more diverse firepower.

[Itsalrightwithme]

Sargon X, on 02 March 2014 - 08:07 PM, said:

Can anyone recommend a detailed tutorial on mech loadouts? I purchased the JR7-F© mech, but when I go to configure it I'm completely lost and I don't want to spend a bunch of C-bills on things I shouldn't be spending them on. Is there a comprehensive guide that explains how to use the interface and gives strategies to create effective loadouts?

Do you know the basics from TableTop? At least regarding XL versus Standard engine survivability?

Here's another resource that is useful after you get past the basics.
http://mwo.gamepedia...-_A_Brief_Guide

[Sargon X]

Itsalrightwithme, on 04 March 2014 - 08:13 AM, said:

Do you know the basics from TableTop? At least regarding XL versus Standard engine survivability?

Not really. The last time I played the tabletop game was at least 15 years ago.

[IraqiWalker]

Sargon X, on 04 March 2014 - 08:03 PM, said:

Not really. The last time I played the tabletop game was at least 15 years ago.

Try this out

http://mwomercs.com/...-mech-building/

I have an XL vs. STD engine explanation after the list.

[Sargon X]

Koniving, on 04 March 2014 - 07:27 AM, said:

This video doesn't necessarily explain how to use the interface, but it essentially builds a mech before your eyes from stock to a fun custom rig while mentioning everything that's being done (changing armor, swapping the engine, putting on bigger guns, freeing up weight, checking heatsink count, etc.) and then plays it into a match. If you don't mind some adult language it should be a good, fairly quick watch.

Thanks, I watched the video. At one point, you did some quick "heatsink math" but I didn't catch what exactly you were calculating. Is there a formula to follow for the number of heatsinks that should be used?

[Koniving]

Sargon X, on 12 March 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:

Thanks, I watched the video. At one point, you did some quick "heatsink math" but I didn't catch what exactly you were calculating. Is there a formula to follow for the number of heatsinks that should be used?

(It goes on as the ratings go down.
150 = 6, need to add 4.
175 = 7, need to add 3.
200 = 8, need to add 2.
225 = 9, need to add 1.
250 = 10. <--sweet number.
275 = 10+space for 1 extra!
300 = 10 + space for 2 extra!
It keeps going.

Every 25 rating, there's a heatsink change. 250 is 10. So up from there such as 275 is 10 + 1 additional space per 25-rating higher. 225 is 9 and you have to add 1 (for every 25-rating lower).

10 is the minimum number of heatsinks you must have to use the mech in MWO.

[Spleenslitta]

IraqiWalker, on 03 March 2014 - 02:34 AM, said:

10- Last, but most important. Pay attention to your own (or your client, if you are building for some else) piloting quirks, and doctor the build to fit them better. Meta builds don't mean a thing if you can't use them effectively.

This is good advice. Remember that meta is most effective for most players, but not all.
Many players want a really good KDR and make builds that dominate in a certain range thinking they will dominate because of it.
The dual AC20 Jager for example.
It is incredible up close but it's almost harmless when you shot at it from 700-800 meter range.

I don't meta and use mechs capable of doing damage at any range. I suspect i enjoy the game more than most of the meta players.
Play the game in a way that you enjoy.

[Sargon X]

Where do you get the rating from?

[Koniving]

Sargon X, on 12 March 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

Where do you get the rating from?

Engine number.

"Standard 200" "STD 200" "XL 200."

The number is the rating.

It's not a "Standard 200," but a "200 rated standard-design Fusion Engine" by whatever company that's been left out.
It's not an XL 250, but a 250-rated Hermes Extra Light materials Fusion Engine.

The number is simply the rating. Like a 300 horse power V8 engine for a car. But clearly not horse power. The rating is just how much "power" it puts out. But its power applies only to your speed, twist, acceleration, slow-down, etc.

Hermes is just a brand name engine from Battletech, it sticks with me because it came up in something I'm researching and writing.

[Sargon X]

Koniving, on 12 March 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

Engine number.

I guess I figured weapons would play into the formula since they generate heat when firing.

[Koniving]

Sargon X, on 12 March 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

I guess I figured weapons would play into the formula since they generate heat when firing.

Weapons do play into the mix. But it's a very different thing altogether that's too hard to simply as a formula. You don't have to have enough heatsinks to keep cold. You choose how much heat you deal with by how many heatsinks you have. For example a mech with autocannons won't have as much heat to worry about as a mech loaded with lots of lasers. Maps also play into that mix.

I was just going for enough heatsinks to run the mech by MWO's rules in the video, because the build could never overheat even if I had just one Double Heatsink.

On MWO's "heat efficiency," I try to keep a 1.4 minimum. Most of my mechs tend to have 1.5 to 1.7 and very rapidly shooting weapons.

Below I read that a bit differently. (I was thinking like lasers drawing energy from the reactor).

Spoiler

That would make sense, but much of MWO and mechwarrior is based heavily on the 1980's board game BattleDroids, later renamed BattleTech and expanded a bit as "MechWarrior." At the time, a lot of things developed in the manuals, books, the lore, etc., much of it never made it into the board game as it'd over-complicate the rules.

Example, there are 44 variants of Medium Lasers alone. Some are non-stop beams. Some are kinda like MWO's lasers. Some are instant "ZAP!" 5 damage. Some required many zaps. Some charge up. Some did more than 5 damage. Some did less. Some had bluish teal beams. Some had pinkish beams.

But try having different rules for 44 versions of the same weapon.

There's over 18 different AC/20s. Interestingly enough not a single one in lore does 20 damage in 1 shot. It's 20 damage in 1 firing, not shot. Most ACs in general are loaded with Cassettes -- a magazine designed to fire its entire contents in a single trigger pull. The most powerful AC/20 mounted on a mech or tank is the Chemjet Gun. It fires 4 shots of 5 damage each in a slow burst.

But... Imagine how much of a pain that is in a dice-based game where you roll to find out where you hit, and for some weapons roll to see how many hit, crit chances, the list goes on and with a campaign you might have 8 lances on the table + ground vehicles, infantry, air strikes, turrets you called in, base defenses, spotting chances...the list goes on.

Oddly though... I don't think weapon energy draw ever had any real effect in lore. Don't think anyone has ever thought of it.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Koniving, on 12 March 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

Oddly though... I don't think weapon energy draw ever had any real effect in lore. Don't think anyone has ever thought of it.

Front Mission has a mechanic based on that idea - you could only mount as many weapons as your engine could power.

So instead of heat penalties: (very rough description - haven't played one in years)
Ballistic weapons were heavy - but had low power requirements - so you needed a heavy machine to carry more than a few
Energy weapons were light - but you needed a massive engine to power more than a few

However since most of the robots were built around 1-2 maybe 3 weapons... it didn't come up much.

Edit: Better description
You could only mount so many weapons as your engine could power - no mid-battle penalties like heat in MW

Edited by Shar Wolf, 12 March 2014 - 04:13 PM.

[Koniving]

Shar Wolf, on 12 March 2014 - 04:06 PM, said:

So instead of heat penalties: (very rough description - haven't played one in years)
Ballistic weapons were heavy - but had low power requirements - so you needed a heavy machine to carry more than a few
Energy weapons were light - but you needed a massive engine to power more than a few

However since most of the robots were built around 1-2 maybe 3 weapons... it didn't come up much.

Oh I know. Big Front Mission buff myself. Do wish they'd have a multi-player version of the regular games.

Though...actually I don't recall any energy weapons in FM 3 (but haven't beat), 4, 5 (but haven't beat). Though I do think I saw something like that on FM "Evolved."

All Wanzers had a maximum of 4 weapons. Heavy weapons did actually have a higher energy use, but also consumed both hands. (Though FM 2 I seen one-handed rifles and bazookas; however this was due to animation limitations with the first 3D version of the game.)

Spoiler

This video was a sample -- that I'm quite unhappy with in how the program Nero killed it -- of a Wanzer computer concept for a Front Mission-based Second Life game that I scrapped. Couldn't afford to keep developing it.

Note that Second Life is a very user-made 3D chat environment where everything can be modified, attached, removed, messed with.. So the obscenely long checklist is to make sure the scripts weren't tampered with or the Prims (primitives/sculpties) weren't modified to reduce or remove hit detection, etc.

FM:E.

I wasn't a fan of what the developer for the game did to the original series. The balancing was quite awful. Powerful weapons felt gimped. Weak but spam-worthy weapons became insanely overpowered -- and oddly not so spam-worthy. And missiles became rapid fire rockets.

My favorite for graphics and between-match gameplay and story, FM 5. My favorite for animation and how the machines worked, as well as accent diversity, FM-4. My favorite for how the Wanzers worked in battle, FM-3. Even if they didn't succeed in dodging, the attempt to dodge was frequent which meant at least they tried. In the FMs after it no one even bothered to dodge unless it'd be successful. Failed dodges just look cool.

Vid link fix.

Edited by Koniving, 12 March 2014 - 04:38 PM.

[TheCaptainJZ]

I've learned to aim for a heat efficiency on MWO's scale of around 1.3 once I have all the pilot skills unlocked. I'll maybe aim for 1.4 before that. Or if it has a mix of weapons that I wouldn't fire simultaneously (Like LRMS and others), I'll dip lower to 1.2 or 1.1. But that's about the lowest I build with.

[IraqiWalker]

TheCaptainJZ, on 12 March 2014 - 04:26 PM, said:

I've learned to aim for a heat efficiency on MWO's scale of around 1.3 once I have all the pilot skills unlocked. I'll maybe aim for 1.4 before that. Or if it has a mix of weapons that I wouldn't fire simultaneously (Like LRMS and others), I'll dip lower to 1.2 or 1.1. But that's about the lowest I build with.

A good to help realize what your actual heat efficiency for builds like those is to actually build the whole thing in smurfy's then remove one weapon group while keeping the other. That way, you see your actual heat efficiency for that group. Then replace the groups and see your efficiency for the other group.

For example a COM-1B with 1 ERLL, and 2 MLs. with a 240 engine plus an external DHS, has on the surface a heat efficiency of 0.99.

However, in reality. It has a heat efficiency of 1.87(ish) for firing the ERLL by itself, and an efficiency of 1.90(ish) when firing only the 2MLs together (not chain fired).

[TercieI]

IraqiWalker, on 12 March 2014 - 07:18 PM, said:

A good to help realize what your actual heat efficiency for builds like those is to actually build the whole thing in smurfy's then remove one weapon group while keeping the other. That way, you see your actual heat efficiency for that group. Then replace the groups and see your efficiency for the other group.

For example a COM-1B with 1 ERLL, and 2 MLs. with a 240 engine plus an external DHS, has on the surface a heat efficiency of 0.99.

However, in reality. It has a heat efficiency of 1.87(ish) for firing the ERLL by itself, and an efficiency of 1.90(ish) when firing only the 2MLs together (not chain fired).

Also, if you click on the "Weaponlab" button in a Smurfy build, you can do theoreticals on % use of various weapons that will even give you estimated times to overheat, etc. It's a powerful tool and easy to miss.

Have I mentioned today that Smurfy rocks? Well, he/it does.

Edited by Terciel1976, 12 March 2014 - 08:05 PM.

[Metafox]

Sargon X, on 12 March 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

I guess I figured weapons would play into the formula since they generate heat when firing.

I skimmed over a few posts so I may have missed something, but I might be able to help explain how heat works:

Each weapon generates heat when fired. You should be able to see the heat information in the mechlab's weapon description.

Heatsinks remove heat over time. Standard heatsinks remove 1 heat every 10 seconds. Double heatsinks remove 1.4 heat every 10 seconds.

Engines have build-in heatsinks. An engine of rating 250 or greater has 10 built-in heatsinks, while smaller engines require one or more additional heat sinks outside of the engine to meet the 10 heatsink quota. If your mech is upgraded to double heatsinks, the engine's built-in heatsinks will remove 2 heat every 10 seconds, making double heatsinks an invaluable upgrade. (The champion mechs come with double heatsinks, so you've got the upgrade already)

Engines with higher ratings can optionally hold additional heatsinks, though the additional heatsinks will weigh 1 ton each just like regular external heatsinks. A 275 or greater engine can tuck away one additional heatsink, a 300+ can hold two extra heatsinks, a 325+ can hold three, and so on.

The game has a built-in heat rating system that gives you an idea of how hot your mech will run. My rule of thumb is as follows: A 1.2 heat efficiency is very hot and your weapon usage will limited. A 1.3 heat efficiency is manageable, though you'll find yourself overheating quickly if you're not careful. A 1.4 heat efficiency is very manageable and will allow for a decent amount of sustained fire. If you have a 1.5+ heat efficiency, you're running cooler than you need to and any tonnage that you've devoted to heatsinks could probably be put to better use elsewhere.