36 replies to this topic

[Tyman4]

From my experience, having "lower arm actuators" generally means I have more flexibility with my arms in a lateral direction. Therefore shooting pesky things like light mechs is relatively easy.

By the same logic, mech's which have no forearms should have a more difficult time of rotating and defending themselves. 1) due to relying on torso twist speed which is less than arm twist speed 2) because there is less total range of movement due to having the arms locked into the torso.

ASSUMING all mechs have the same torso twist range, Armed mechs should be vastly superior at defending themselves while Armless mechs trade that mobility for larger weapons in the arms.

However, mechs without arms seem to generally torso twist much further than mechs which have arms. I swear the CATapult could lick its own bum clean. And the Raven sleeps with its head backwards.

Can we please fix this PGI. Thanks

[Trauglodyte]

Here is the thing, though. When a Commando torso twists, it might not have the same range as the Locust but, it adds the arm range on top of the torso twist to get what is essentially the same. Furthermore, what the Locust gets is more free space in the arm locations for a larger weapon (can mount an AC20) but it cannot shift its arms by way of Free Look to keep the arm reticle on a target while simultaneously protectings its torsos. Finally, if the Locust has a bare side torso, I can put a shot right under its arms and right into that torso while I've got to normally burn through the arm of the Mando to get a shot on the torso.

Checks and balances.



PS> Btw, it is really sad how few people know about Free Look (left control button) and/or how even fewer use it or see the practical use of it. Really sad.

[aniviron]

It just depends on the mech. The humanoid Hunchback can cover a roughly 340 degree arc with its arms without moving its legs, and over 300 with its torso. The actuator-less Stalker has the worst torso twist in the game, at about 150 degrees (except the 3F).

The other thing is that being able to track targets is super important, and actuators weigh nothing and take just one crit slot; while it is odious and obnoxious to me that my Awesomes can carry less heatsinks in the arm without a weapon than a Stalker can in its missile pods, by and large the disadvantage of lower arm and hand actuators are pretty marginal.

It could be worse; the Raven and Jenner need the torso twist pretty badly due to their light weight, but the Catapult got a pretty significant torso twist nerf about a year ago.

[Khobai]

Quote

Can we please fix this PGI. Thanks

Whats there to fix? The Catapult is already a terrible mech. And you want to nerf it more? lol.

The only problem I have with arms is the fact hand actuators do absolutely nothing. They take up crit slots but give you nothing in return.

[Deathlike]

It always depends on what you're trying to do with those arms.

In mechs that don't have moving arms like Jenners, torso twist is usually increased to allow more operating range. Most of these kinds of mechs tend to have high arms, allowing for "what you see is what you can shoot". The major drawback is that you have to be directly facing your target to deal damage.

In mechs that do have moving arms like the Firestarter, arms are usually given generous range of motion to fire at stuff. The greatest benefit is that you don't really have to look at the target face to face to get the shot you want. The caveat is that the arms are lower, so you won't be able to shoot as quickly as you can (if anything, you'd have to be on the same level/surface as the target to not suffer from this) and usually mechs with arm articulation have large arms. This can be good and bad, as shielding damage with the arms is better for your survival... unless most/all of your weapons are on the arms (think Boar's Head).

So... it's a tradeoff, and although having high arms w/o articulation have a benefit generally speaking, there are tradeoffs that limit its functionality. The question becomes... are you able to use the mech well? That will dictate how much of a difference it makes to you.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Tyman4, on 10 March 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

However, mechs without arms seem to generally torso twist much further than mechs which have arms. I swear the CATapult could lick its own bum clean. And the Raven sleeps with its head backwards.

Can we please fix this PGI. Thanks

There is nothing to fix when it comes to this.

Torso twist range does not make up for the speed, accuracy, and range of motion of aiming weapons in arms. Arms allow you to aim left and right far quicker than turning a torso, it allows the player to better fine tune his/her aim (not wiggling a whole torso), and allows the player to shoot higher vertically than torso mounted weapons.

About the only advantage of torso mounted weapons is they tend to be mounted a bit higher to clear terrain. Some mechs with arms are really knuckle draggers (like the cataphract) and will bury rounds into a small hill in front of you.

Arms play a role and a pretty good one.

[Joseph Mallan]

This is what arms on an Atlas should do:

Instead we are stuck with this!

[Trauglodyte]

You know, in a way, I'm kind of happy that we don't have melee in this incarnation, Joe. Can you imagine all of the idiot face hugging that would go on? It is bad enough that, in most matches, you've got bad PUGs doing the "don't shoot me" shuffle to the point where you can't move forward. And, back before they changed the spread on SRMs, you could count on a poorly piloted Centurion driver ram into your face so that they could ensure that all of their missiles would land. Would love to have the Hatchetman/Axman in game but would prefer not having an extra layer of idiocy impacting my play and all around enjoyment.

[Joseph Mallan]

I understand that Traug, I just don't agree with it. Its a fight, and the enemy is not supposed to fight you by your rules and ideals. They are supposed to fight you their way. Its how you prove your way is better... or not.

[WarHippy]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 March 2014 - 08:46 AM, said:

This is what arms on an Atlas should do:

Instead we are stuck with this!

We don't even have the second pic anymore after they took our glowy eyes.

[Joseph Mallan]

Bummer of a reminder Hippy!

[Trauglodyte]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 March 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

I understand that Traug, I just don't agree with it. Its a fight, and the enemy is not supposed to fight you by your rules and ideals. They are supposed to fight you their way. Its how you prove your way is better... or not.

Oh, I get that. But, can you imagine fighting just to get into melee range with your a-typical pugger running around? Then again, it would make weapons like the Small Lasers a bit more friendly cause you'd be right in their wheel house in melee.

Let's get the rest of the game released and polished and then we'll talk rockem' sockem' robots.

[Joseph Mallan]

Agreed Traug.

[Khobai]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 March 2014 - 08:46 AM, said:

This is what arms on an Atlas should do:

Instead we are stuck with this!

could be worse we could have this

[OneEyed Jack]

Khobai, on 11 March 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

could be worse we could have this

Oh, you think it looks bad? Try playing that overheating POS.

[Joseph Mallan]

OneEyed Jack, on 11 March 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

Oh, you think it looks bad? Try playing that overheating POS.

You actually admit to playing that travesty?

[MustrumRidcully]

Trauglodyte, on 10 March 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

Here is the thing, though. When a Commando torso twists, it might not have the same range as the Locust but, it adds the arm range on top of the torso twist to get what is essentially the same. Furthermore, what the Locust gets is more free space in the arm locations for a larger weapon (can mount an AC20) but it cannot shift its arms by way of Free Look to keep the arm reticle on a target while simultaneously protectings its torsos. Finally, if the Locust has a bare side torso, I can put a shot right under its arms and right into that torso while I've got to normally burn through the arm of the Mando to get a shot on the torso.

Checks and balances.



PS> Btw, it is really sad how few people know about Free Look (left control button) and/or how even fewer use it or see the practical use of it. Really sad.

Checks and balances are agreat concept, but it's not executed in MW:O

The check and balance for increased firing arcs would be the price of that crit for the lower arm actuator.

But instead, it is punishing you, because you don't neccessarily get a firing arc advantage compared to mechs without it, and you definitely will have low slung weapons that force you to expose yourself.

The only advantage that you can hope for with arms is that they can move a bit faster, making it theoretically easier to track a close, fast moving target. Except that the mechanics of the arm-torso lock mean that you can bypass some of that speed advantage, too.

[Fut]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 March 2014 - 04:27 AM, said:

You actually admit to playing that travesty?

C'mon, MWDA wasn't that bad. A little simplistic in the rules, but they released all sorts of support units for the Mechs; infantry, powersuits,tanks, hovercraft...etc. It made for some pretty interesting games.

Really didn't like how the Heat worked in that game though - but at least it had more of a robust heatscale than MWO currently has.

[Davers]

Khobai, on 11 March 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

could be worse we could have this

Looks more like a Blood Bowl model than a BT one.

[Bobzilla]

Slots being used in your arms for the same arc is a negative, there is no balance, if there was an increased arc for arms it would be equal.

Being able to turn your torso slightly away from an enemy while shooting just puts your weapons at risk and then your left with no weapons, or weapons that have less of an arc. Also if you can twist your torso further, you can mitiage damage better.

So without the slots they are equal. But taking up slots for the same performance is a negative.