70 replies to this topic

[Bobzilla]

What if there was a reason to not run hot (progressive penalties)? What if there where penalties for heat spikes (even from 0 heat)?

[VagGR]

after endless threads, topics and discussions about how bad the current meta is its safe to safe that PGI just doesnt want to do anythign about it. For them its obviously working as intended. i mean, seriously after all this time if they really wanted to fix it they would have already...i dont know..maybe their idea of a meta fix is the 3/3/3/3 system and they are just waiting to see how things go after that...

[Leroifou]

Sounds good to me. Anything to add some variety...

[CDLord HHGD]

VagGR, on 17 March 2014 - 02:58 PM, said:

after endless threads, topics and discussions about how bad the current meta is its safe to safe that PGI just doesnt want to do anythign about it. For them its obviously working as intended. i mean, seriously after all this time if they really wanted to fix it they would have already...i dont know..maybe their idea of a meta fix is the 3/3/3/3 system and they are just waiting to see how things go after that...

Perhaps you are correct. This could be working as intended. However, as touchy a subject as this is, I'd like to think that they are taking their time with it too. That's why I like to offer ideas and gather ideas from others. Maybe they are still brainstorming the right fix, have a combination of different approaches, but are missing a piece the community can provide.

[100mile]

I believe the balance in the game is best it's ever been...not saying i think they are done with it tho..I believe the 3/3/3/3 is the next step they are taking towards balance....as you will no longer have 5 Victor's with dual PPC/AC5's running around...the Meta will change a little...(let me stress A Little) but i think that's what PGI is going for...Little corrections/tweaks... I believe they will be instituting further changes/tweaks as they get data back on how the 3/3/3/3 changes things so they can adjust from there..I prefer them to take their time...I know a lot of you are impatiently waiting for stuff we were supposed to have already (me included. ) but would rather they get things right eventually..

I would like to say am really happy that there is 2 pages worth of decent, smart non-flammable discussion here and wish the rest of the forums could follow this example...

[Accursed Richards]

Khobai, on 17 March 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

And the chance of making certain mechs dominant while other mechs are never even used is too great.

What, unlike now? Seen a lot of Locusts, Quickdraws and Awesomes on the field compared to Firestarters, Jagermechs and Highlanders?

[AlmightyAeng]

Enjoy your new LRM-meta overlords. Until this weekend, when PGI hotfixes them to be slower due to complainers on Twitter.

[DONTOR]

Hell no! Freedom of customizaton for all!
Theres not a single thing that would make me quit faster than this, I dont even abuse the Meta infact I often build the opposite.
But if I want to put an AC20 on my raven Id better be able to, f I want an ERPPC on my Locust then I better damn well be able to. BUFF more NERF less

[Spleenslitta]

Unfortunatly PGI has come so far in the development of MWO that they won't change anything no matter how well balanced a hardpoint/heatsystem we players come up with.
Demanding that they change it will just make the moderators stomp hard on our heads if we demanded it hard enough.

A voting thread that works like a petition with a great amount of players voting might work but unfortunatly that would have to be a huge amount of players.
We are talking several thousand at least.



A guy named "no one" made a thread about a new heatsystem that would make it really harsh to keep heat at 80-90%.
Ghost heat would be history with this heatsystem.
You mech would get all sluggish and slow down if you keep firing into the nearshutdown heatzone.
All kinds of stuff that made the novels so entertaining and tense during the fight scenes.
It's very closely according to canon if you look at how high amounts of heat affects a mech.

In any case it would be veeeeerry difficult to use a mech that has multiple hot weapons unless you're really good at heatmanagement.
3 PPC's would be manageable for an Awesome i think, but only because it has no other weaponry to concern itself with and it has invested heavily in heatsinks.

Here is a link.
http://mwomercs.com/...aid-of-no-heat/

But this wouldn't solve the issue with those that mount dual AC20 or Gausses you say? Well that is true but it would stop the crazy energy builds for sure.
This heatsystem combined with this hardpoint system that the OP mentioned should work really well.

[Spleenslitta]

100mile, on 18 March 2014 - 04:57 AM, said:

I believe the balance in the game is best it's ever been...not saying i think they are done with it tho..I believe the 3/3/3/3 is the next step they are taking towards balance....as you will no longer have 5 Victor's with dual PPC/AC5's running around...the Meta will change a little...(let me stress A Little) but i think that's what PGI is going for...Little corrections/tweaks... I believe they will be instituting further changes/tweaks as they get data back on how the 3/3/3/3 changes things so they can adjust from there..I prefer them to take their time...I know a lot of you are impatiently waiting for stuff we were supposed to have already (me included. ) but would rather they get things right eventually..

I would like to say am really happy that there is 2 pages worth of decent, smart non-flammable discussion here and wish the rest of the forums could follow this example...

You got a point there. Quickly changing stuff could be very dangerous. Slow and steady is also a way to go.

As for the 2 pages of smart no-flammable discussion. I couldn't agree more.
Most threads out there end up with people either insulting each other, trying to reject the OP's post with just a single sentence or just going off topic.
I dislike most when somebody comes along to make themselves look like the best that has ever happend to MWO by showing of how many kills/damage they have in matches.

This thread is different and i hope it keeps that way.

[slide]

The Op's suggestion is a good start IMO.

As others have suggested burst fire AC's and PPC's (or spread damage) would go along way to increasing TTK. Guass Rifles should be the only front loaded weapon left. It's current usage is difficult and those few mechs left that can carry it have their own inherent issues limiting it's use. Most mechs would only be able to carry one or limited ammo for 2. Heat also needs to be looked at as well as weapon cool down times (longer).

My short list of changes would be:

1. Hard point limitations
2. Heat - lower cap/higher dissipation for DHS - high cap/low dissipation for SHS
3. Burst fire AC - AC2 2*1point shots @ .1seconds, AC5 5*1 @ .1, AC10 4*2.5 @ .1, AC20 4*5 @ .1, LBX same as now(buff)
4. LRM - bone targeting as with streaks, individual locks per missile with possible lock being a miss. See note 1 below.
5. Chassis specific quirks to encourage use. see note 2 below
6. Slightly longer cool downs on weapons across he board
7. Much shorter duration and shorter cool down on pulse lasers, relative to their ordinary cousins, penalty is increased heat.
8. Dynamic economy that forces price of weapons and mechs up based on popularity and use. FOTM costs more!

Note 1.
LRMS need an overhaul to increase both skill needed and their utility beyond blocking out the sun. I propose the following.
1. Bone targeting (same as streaks) including a miss option.
2. Each missile in a rack has a cumulative lock on time of .1 seconds. Once the launcher reaches a lock (as it is now) each missile requires .1 seconds, sequentially to gains it's own lock. LRM5 needs extra .5 seconds, LRM20 requires extra 2 seconds for a full lock. A indicator on the HUD would give an indication of % locked missiles/launcher. Can launch early but with more unlocked missiles.
3. Unlocked missiles either dumb fire (as now) or fire off in random directions hitting friend and foe alike. (watch your fire lanes)
4. Each launcher must relock after each salvo.
5. Damage per missile increased back to 1.5 or even 2 to compensate for more spread damage and more misses/less spam
6. Reduce ammo per tonne back to 120 (maybe 150) because of increased damage
7. AMS only target locked missiles, not the ones that are going to miss anyway
8. ECM, narc, tag, artemis etc stay the same
The general idea here is to make missiles more effective when they hit but to make hits harder/more skill full.

Note 2 - Mech quirks (not all my ideas), possible ideas
Awesome 8Q - no ghost heat on 3 ppcs
Awesome 9M - no ghost heat on 1erppc +2ppc
Catapult - missile boats, decreases LRM lock times, lower heat per salvo, extra tonnage free missile storage (ie each tonne holds 210 not 180 missiles due to better storage systems)
Raven 4x - heavy machine guns, 60m extra range
Battlemaster (D model) better heat dissipation when using all 6 ML on chain fire (-20%?)
Commandoes - srms recycle quicker
Locusts - run faster when above 60% heat (+10 kph) (extra strength myomer)

At the risk of high jacking his thread (apologies in advance), what other quirks fit some of the unloved mechs intended designs or at least make them more useful?

[Turist0AT]

Oh the irony.

Change the Meta please.... LRMpocalypse

[BoldricKent]

Over customization always bring Meta builds, which tend to boating most effecitve weapons.
So as suggested, mech should have size or even better tonnage limit on hardpoints. Victor
can easy mount 3xAC2 on 1 hand,thats 1/4 of its weight in 1 hand...
The problem is we already have omnimech, so whats is left for clanners.
Well, if Clan mech could change premade configuration during deployment (ready time),
they would gain omni edge back, since droping in specific maps aint option no more.

[CDLord HHGD]

To update my OP, to implement Small and Large hardpoints, the split can be made in the damage threshold.

Anything that does 1-8 points of damage in a single volley is a small.
Anything that does 9+ points of damage in a single volley is a large.

Not only would this make Light mechs able to equip large weapons unique, but would also add value to the UAC5 in that it can fire for a potential 10 points of damage in a sudo-single recharge period with a small hardpoint.

Again, I'd allow Large hardpoints to equip small weapons, but Small hardpoints cannot equip large weapons. Also, the hardpoints are still 1:1. No option to make a large hardpoint equate to two small hardpoints.

[MagicM0E]

Slide, your suggested changes to LRM's seem a bit drastic.

Getting back to the original idea, I want to see a limit to the options for boating and so get away from Mechs that run 60+ LRM's, or multiple AC's and/or PPC's. The idea is that Mechs run a much more varied build, some long, medium and short weapons. If this was the case we wouldn't see LRM monsters because no (or at least very few) Mechs would be capable of running them.

I love modifying my Mechs so I don't want to see an end to tinkering in Mech lab, but I really feel that hard point sizes could be used to restrict some of the cheese builds we're forced to run in order to stay competitive. As already mentioned, we could do away with Ghost Heat (brought in to limit min/maxing and is far too complicated for newbies to grasp) and we wouldn't need to add different mechanics for LRM's (we could even get rid of the firing procedure for Gauss riffles). This may also give the up coming Clan Mechs a better feel as Omni's because we've been spoiled with the amount of customisation we've been allowed to have so far.

I really think the weapons we have now are well balanced and almost where they need to be. Our problems come from the ability to mount 4, 5 or 6+ of them on a chassis.

PPC/ERPPC - good all-round weapon with heat being the only real issue. Bolt on 4 and you have 40 points of pin-point damage that will wreck most torso's in one salvo.

AC's - Much less heat but are limited by size and ammo capacity. Bolt on any 4 and the ammo is irrelevant as anything you hit crumbles before your eyes.

LRM's - Easy to use long range weapon but is easily countered by ECM, AMS or even the terrain! Bolt on 4 and you're back to LeRMaggedon

We can do the same for all the weapon systems. None of them are bad. None of them are over powered. That is until we start to boat them. Yes, some are better than others but all have their Achilles Heal. It's rock, paper, scissors and our problems are due to people being able to bring 4 or more rocks to defeat your single sheet of paper!

[Sandpit]

If you want the meta to change, then change it. I don't run meta builds. I have positive win.loss and KDR. If you want the meta to change then use something other than meta builds. Then as others see you doing well they'll look into similar builds. There's ALWAYS going to be a meta, there's always going to be people who like the current meta, and there's always going to be people who don't like the current meta.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Relic1701, on 17 March 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

We've been discussing something along these lines in the group I drop with, and we all think they will go a long way to bring back the 'flavour' of various mechs. But we were more along the lines of 'Small, Medium, Large, Huge'

• Small - Tag, Flamer, SL, SPL, MG, AC2, SRM2, SSRM2, LRM5, Narc
  
• Medium - ML, MPL, AC5, UAC5, SRM4, LRM10
  
• Large - LL, ERLL, LPL, AC10, LB10X, SRM6, LRM15
  
• Huge - PPC, ERPPC, Gauss Rifle, AC20, LRM20

If you want to be really picky you could add a 'Small Arms' hardpoint that can only mount SL, SPL, MG's & Flamers, you know the ones meant for anti infantry weapons.



All of a sudden the Awesome becomes, well awesome, being able to mount 3 PPC's, same with the K2. Having a look at some of the current chassis' and there hardpoints, adding sizes would do little to the majority of builds, but would stop a lot of the 'cheese' builds, and could even create more diversity, people would have to start thinking about their builds, even more so if there was a static heat cap.

let me "adjust" this, because if you use this scheme with so many sizes there is no real way to "change up weapons" which is exactly what IS mechs are SUPPOSED to be able to do.

but also look at clan mechs, if they have 4 huge "slots" then they can boat 4 ac20 or 4 guass so...... it really isn't a step in the right direction.

• Small - Tag, Flamer, SL, SPL, ML, MPL MG, AC2, SRM2, SRM4, SSRM2, LRM5, Narc
  
• Medium - LL, ERLL, LPL, AC10, LB10X, SRM6, AC5, UAC5, LRM10
  
• Large - PPC, ERPPC, Gauss Rifle, AC20, LRM15, LRM20

this way a mech can choose to swap that srm2 or streak 2 for a srm4, i can choose to swap SL/SPL with a ML or MPL which is proper and in no way OP. maybe lights shouldn't be able to run around with an ER/LL/LPL or ER/PPC.


but then again some stock lights do carry things like a ER/LL or LRM10 as a main weapon.

otherwise a mech can never effectively change is weapons scheme. you only get to choose between a SL or SPL, a Streak 2, SRM2 or LRM 5. waaay to little options for IS mechs.

there should be 2-3 sizes of weapons TOPS and they should only really disallow boating things like PPC, Guass, AC20 and LRM 15/20.

but one could also argue that by actually "fixing weapons properly" there wouldn't be a need for every mech to try and cram in the largest guns available which is what i think is the proper way to fix things, a light will not want to run around with a LL to hill hump and run/hide when it can have real speed and weapons that work for tactics.

Edited by Mellifluer, 19 March 2014 - 01:19 PM.

[smokefield]

Quote

The point is, the Aplha strike, was meant as a last resort, when all hope is lost, not, as now as a primary method of attack

after reading this topic i see that most of the issue is related to ability of mechs to use alpha as primary method of attack for as long as they can (heat wise speaking).

why not just modify this :

1. it can be implemented a mechanic like the JJ have now...when you land the mech stops for a splitsecond. Do the same with alpha - when a mech uses alpha, due to large amount of energy required to fire all weapon systems, it will stop for...1...2 seconds. that will induce a much greater risk for those using alpha compared with one who fires only parts of his weapons.

2. it can be implemented on the same considerations, due to large enery requirements...bla bla, a temporary shutdown...for 1..2 sec. (this may be a little drastic but its another idea)

this mechanic should not be related in any way to the heat penalty, not with the chain firing...just with alpha fire.

[CDLord HHGD]

smokefield, on 19 March 2014 - 10:35 PM, said:

after reading this topic i see that most of the issue is related to ability of mechs to use alpha as primary method of attack for as long as they can (heat wise speaking).

why not just modify this :

1. it can be implemented a mechanic like the JJ have now...when you land the mech stops for a splitsecond. Do the same with alpha - when a mech uses alpha, due to large amount of energy required to fire all weapon systems, it will stop for...1...2 seconds. that will induce a much greater risk for those using alpha compared with one who fires only parts of his weapons.

2. it can be implemented on the same considerations, due to large enery requirements...bla bla, a temporary shutdown...for 1..2 sec. (this may be a little drastic but its another idea)

this mechanic should not be related in any way to the heat penalty, not with the chain firing...just with alpha fire.

I like this and I have thought about this, but what constitutes an Alpha Strike? In lore, that was an all-weapon hail Mary. In MWO, the pilot can just equip a small laser somewhere and not use it to bypass the Alpha Strike mechanic.

This is why I put in my OP a relation between potential damage and heat. But instead of an Alpha Strike being all weapons, an Alpha Strike can be a potential damage threshold. Obviously we do not want to nerf pre-existing single weapons, so that damage related Alpha Strike should be at damages of greater than 20 points OR the use of 3 or more weapons simultaneously. This is also requiring them to drop the damage for LRMs back to a 1:1 ratio (right now a LRM20 does 22 damage). The penalty for going over the 20 points/over 2 simultaneous weapons would either be heat related or your idea of a partial 1-2 second shutdown to account for energy expenditure in the attack.

Personally, I think sized hardpoints + the redefinition of Alpha Strikes above would significantly reduce boating and bring MWO back to MechWarrior and Battletech where mixed loadouts were preferred because of the damage output at all ranges. This would also increase survivability and game satisfaction of new people and people tired of seeing an arm, leg, or torso melt off in one hit....

[smokefield]

well..the idea can be polished and better thought...compare it with ghost heat for ex. some weapons will have gh only after you fire 6 of them ..some do not have any. To avoid situations like the one you said with the small laser we can think at a mechanic similar with gh - lets say that having 2-4 small las not firing will not affect the outcome of an alpha with the rest...just for ex.