76 replies to this topic

[Craig Steele]

Fyrwulf, on 18 March 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

It's come out that the Ravens actually nuked their own repository. I used to think of the Ravens as extraordinary pilots but basically harmless, but now I think of them as Inglorious ********.

I don't think there are too many in Clan Space that regard the Ravens as 'harmless', and in any case there are a number of stories about he Wolverines that have no basis.

Given the Clans were only just out of Klondike and trying to maintain order over their new holdings, AND Snow Raven had less ground troops than most, it's hard to imagine they would deliberatly sabotage their future and present to spite the Wolverines.

Think about it, cripple ourselves and make us weak so we have no chance of winning the right to absorb the Clan we are making acquasations about. That just doesn't seem to be a coherant lne of thought and the Snow Ravens are most certainly portrayed as one of the 'smarter' Clans.

[Fyrwulf]

Craig Steele, on 18 March 2014 - 03:47 PM, said:

Think about it, cripple ourselves and make us weak so we have no chance of winning the right to absorb the Clan we are making acquasations about. That just doesn't seem to be a coherant lne of thought and the Snow Ravens are most certainly portrayed as one of the 'smarter' Clans.

Betrayer of Ideals is not supposition, it's hard canon. You have to remember that during Klondike the Wolverines and Snow Ravens operated together. During an operation the latter made an attack based upon an opfor report by the Wolverines that turned out to be in error and lost their saKhan and nine other warriors. Rather than chalking the tragedy up to the other side wanting to win as well, they thought the Wolverines had set them up because saKhan Hallis was attracted to the Raven saKhan and had been rebuffed.

Also, there was never a bid for absorption. Almost immediately after the censure vote, the Snow Raven (among others), decided they were going to gang up on the Wolverines and launch an assault in revenge for the death of their first saKhan. They got their asses handed to them so thoroughly they were ejected from every single planetary holding they had, including their capital (where the repository was located). In that context it makes sense, because the Ravens had to figure that at the very least every Clan was guaranteed to jump on them.

Smart and logical are two entirely separate things.

[Craig Steele]

Fyrwulf, on 18 March 2014 - 04:54 PM, said:

Betrayer of Ideals is not supposition, it's hard canon. You have to remember that during Klondike the Wolverines and Snow Ravens operated together. During an operation the latter made an attack based upon an opfor report by the Wolverines that turned out to be in error and lost their saKhan and nine other warriors. Rather than chalking the tragedy up to the other side wanting to win as well, they thought the Wolverines had set them up because saKhan Hallis was attracted to the Raven saKhan and had been rebuffed.

Also, there was never a bid for absorption. Almost immediately after the censure vote, the Snow Raven (among others), decided they were going to gang up on the Wolverines and launch an assault in revenge for the death of their first saKhan. They got their asses handed to them so thoroughly they were ejected from every single planetary holding they had, including their capital (where the repository was located). In that context it makes sense, because the Ravens had to figure that at the very least every Clan was guaranteed to jump on them.

Smart and logical are two entirely separate things.

Actually its NOT hard canon that Snow Ravens destroyed their own repositary. If you are quoting Sarna check my link for BT Canon sources.

And there was a trial, Clan Wolf won it and sustained 80% casualities taking out the Wolverines. I don't think I said absorbtion did I? It was a big fight and the honour of defending Nicholas was a big deal, highly regarded.


Was their a feud, sure. The Falcons and Wolfs had one too. So did a few other Clans. But that's hardly the basis for Snow Raven to self destruct. Your picture of what happened after Sarah McEvedy left the council has no canon support that I am aware of. What are your sources?

EDIT, I did say absorb, that was silly of me. My apologies. I said Annihilate everywhere else but there. I blame trying to get out the door for something, but yeah. My bad.

Edited by Craig Steele, 18 March 2014 - 05:33 PM.

[Fyrwulf]

Craig Steele, on 18 March 2014 - 05:29 PM, said:

Actually its NOT hard canon that Snow Ravens destroyed their own repositary. If you are quoting Sarna check my link for BT Canon sources.

I know Sarna isn't terribly reliable. I had my own episode with them that resulted in Catalyst basically demanding they make corrections to the page in question. That said, who did nuke their repository, then?

[Craig Steele]

Fyrwulf, on 18 March 2014 - 05:56 PM, said:

I know Sarna isn't terribly reliable. I had my own episode with them that resulted in Catalyst basically demanding they make corrections to the page in question. That said, who did nuke their repository, then?

The canon lays the blame on Wolverines door, it was the trigger for the Grand Council to vote for annihilation. Before then Nicholas (alledgedly) just wanted to pull them into line but things got out of hand (on both sides) and spun towards obilteration.

Jaroth's sources above paints that picture?

But sure, there are conspiracy theories.

[Fyrwulf]

Craig Steele, on 18 March 2014 - 06:42 PM, said:

The canon lays the blame on Wolverines door

Didn't Betrayer of Ideals curbstomp that meme? I'll have to buy it and read.

[Craig Steele]

Craig Steele, on 18 March 2014 - 06:42 PM, said:

The canon lays the blame on Wolverines door, it was the trigger for the Grand Council to vote for annihilation. Before then Nicholas (alledgedly) just wanted to pull them into line but things got out of hand (on both sides) and spun towards obilteration.

Jaroth's sources above paints that picture?

But sure, there are conspiracy theories.

Just to be clear, there are sources that say that the Anihilation was because McEvedy said "we're off, see you later" and other sources that say after she said this debate raged about what to do about them and then the nuke went off, and then they voted on annihilation. Whether the gap was 3 hours or 3 weeks I'm not sure if that is clear, but if you put the two together as the 'cause' you're probably not far off.

[CoffiNail]

Fyrwulf, on 18 March 2014 - 07:11 PM, said:

Didn't Betrayer of Ideals curbstomp that meme? I'll have to buy it and read.

Here you go.

Spoiler

Edited by CoffiNail, 18 March 2014 - 08:50 PM.

[NocturnalBeast]

The Clan Wolverine exiles were possibly the origin of the Word Of Blake.

[Craig Steele]

CoffiNail, on 18 March 2014 - 08:48 PM, said:

Here you go.

Spoiler

This is explosive stuff, is this actual canon? An endorsed novel or one of the German books they disavow?

[Ghostchips Condensate I and II]

i once saw on an online auction site a "Windows 3.1 Clan Wolverine, fight for freedom of your clan" floppy disk game, might have been an expansion for MW1. Is it real or was it a fake listing?

[Jaroth Corbett]

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 19 March 2014 - 01:45 AM.

[Rushin Roulette]

Marack Drock, on 18 March 2014 - 06:55 AM, said:

So until some long lost survivors resurface any theory could be possible?

Nah, no survivors from the Wolverines... go about your business, there are no alleged Wolverine warriors on the loose, nothing to see here. Anything you might have heard about some US state called Minnesota or a tribe thereof would be ludicrous to say the least .

Fyrwulf, on 18 March 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

It's come out that the Ravens actually nuked their own repository. I used to think of the Ravens as extraordinary pilots but basically harmless, but now I think of them as Inglorious ********.

More like they were too stupid to think before shooting and were busier worrying about how glorious an exploding enemy would look like in their reports than worry about what might go wrong.

CoffiNail, on 18 March 2014 - 08:48 PM, said:

Here you go.

Spoiler

Not sure if this is considered canon, however it would fit with the statements from McEvedy. I also never understood why one of the most powerful and advanced single clans at the time would need to resort to such backhanded shock tactics which they knew would automatically make them a prime target for every single clanner out there even without a trial.

[CoffiNail]

Last I knew, battlecorps was considered canon. That there is also written by Blaine Pardoe

[ManaValkyrie]

Marack Drock, on 18 March 2014 - 09:17 PM, said:

As posted before the terminated WoB soldiers (who were apparently examined and autopsied) had no genetic link to those of the Wolverines according to the source books.

Against what were they tested? Given that Iron Womb technology was still in early stages of R&D and pipe dreams at that point. Almost all records of clan Wolverine were pretty much destroyed (including the Genetic reporistories and bloodines), erased and by the time we reach the point in the game timeline are pretty much legend and myth.

Sourcebooks may state that the captured WoB soldiers were tested, but against what data sets? Not only that, the way the Blakist Documents are worded, is that even amongst Comstar, these 'exiles' assumed to be the descendents of Clan Wolverine, were small numbered and hidden from the mainstream.

Take into account that Comstar's main members were ordinary Inner Sphere citizens, so would all WoB troops be wolverine descendents? Very doubtful.

Edit: Also, the Blackist Documents were pretty much written to increase the did they/didn't they survive conspiracy theorists. Also the Documents veracity are often questioned as to whether they are actually factual or bits written to further 'muddy' the waters in the books they were contained in.

Generally I think its always going to be a hugely unanswerable question, because Lore, fluff and Canon relating to the Wolverines is deliberately vague, contradictory and open to debate with no hard right or wrong answer there.

=But it does make for a fun game=

CoffiNail, on 19 March 2014 - 03:44 AM, said:

Last I knew, battlecorps was considered canon. That there is also written by Blaine Pardoe

Whats canon at any individual time is 'officially' controlled by IP holders, in this case I believe the overall control is under Catalyst, so there developers can decide what is and what isn't canon to suit at will... which doesn't make it 'right' just the way it is.

Edited by ManaValkyrie, 19 March 2014 - 03:52 AM.

[Craig Steele]

CoffiNail, on 19 March 2014 - 03:44 AM, said:

Last I knew, battlecorps was considered canon. That there is also written by Blaine Pardoe

Battlecorps certainly is canon. So it most certainly can be relied upon.

So there you go, the Snow Raven did destory their capital (accidently) and Wolverine took the fall.

Another conspiracy theory in the BT world is put to rest

Thank you posters, I have learnt something new

[Sychodemus]

The last time I checked, Catalyst Game Labs is owned by InMediaRes Productions who also created BattleCorps. CGL was created to handle the Battletech and Shadowrun licenses when IMR got the rights from WizKids. (Topps still owns the franchise AFAIK.)

Long story short, if BattleCorps publishes it and it is marked as canon then it is canon.

Of course, one must take everything "canon" in Battletech with a grain of salt because it is so much fodder for authors and storyline developers.

[Jaroth Corbett]

[Lukoi Banacek]

Pariah Devalis, on 18 March 2014 - 07:09 AM, said:

Should be noted that Wolverine blood was never confirmed in anyone Clan Ghost Bear tested - and they tested the corpses of every WoB they killed. Wolverine being involved is then more rumor and possibly in universe propaganda used to get the Ghost Bears off their fuzzy asses and into the war.

From a Clan Sea Fox retort to a subordinate in September 3134:

"What happened when the Bears made such a decision? When Clan Ghost Bear let those most deserving of Clan justice escape?"

Jesup reared back, his jaw falling open at such a comparison. At the memory of the Not-Named Clan and the total annihilation they escaped...the havoc they wrought.

- Hunters of the Deep

Just thought I'd toss it out there. I've always considered this all of the proof needed that some form of the Wolverines escaped, whether Minnesota Tribe or otherwise.

Ed Steele, on 18 March 2014 - 08:55 PM, said:

The Clan Wolverine exiles were possibly the origin of the Word Of Blake.

WoB might have had adherents from Clan Wolverine (total guess really) but they had their own seeds from within in Comstar proper and probably would have existed with or without Wolverine influence.

[Craig Steele]

Lukoi, on 21 March 2014 - 06:33 PM, said:

From a Clan Sea Fox retort to a subordinate in September 3134:

"What happened when the Bears made such a decision? When Clan Ghost Bear let those most deserving of Clan justice escape?"

Jesup reared back, his jaw falling open at such a comparison. At the memory of the Not-Named Clan and the total annihilation they escaped...the havoc they wrought.

- Hunters of the Deep

Just thought I'd toss it out there. I've always considered this all of the proof needed that some form of the Wolverines escaped, whether Minnesota Tribe or otherwise.



WoB might have had adherents from Clan Wolverine (total guess really) but they had their own seeds from within in Comstar proper and probably would have existed with or without Wolverine influence.

So wait, are you saying Clan Ghost Bear let them off twice?

Once when they left the Clan Worlds, and again by falsifying the DNA testing?