16 replies to this topic

[Madw0lf]

So, youre standard run of the mill autocannons, theyre smooth bore yes? Is there any mention anywhere of whatthe ammunition is like? IIRC its DU, but is it like a modern KK tank round? HEAP? Or does it resemble a shotgun slug?

[CarnageINC]

I believe they would be smoothbore. The ammo is, imo, tungsten or HEAP. In tabletop advanced rules you have AC penetrator rounds and they are probably DU.

I would also assume they are caseless rounds too, since you don't see shells flying out ejection chutes.

[SMDMadCow]

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Autocannon

[Pezzer]

I'm going to go on a limb and assume that AC/5s and above (in caliber: exception Gauss Rifle of course) use cased ammunition. Reason: Sound effects in game. You hear a physical bit of "brass" or case being loaded when in between shots. With AC/2s, since they are a smaller caliber and fire faster it would seem that caseless ammo makes sense. Also you can compare the shots per ton to the AC/5. The smaller caliber AC/2 =/= 3X the ammo of a ton of AC/5 with brass included. I mean, since the calculations are done per TON and not per x amount of SPACE, it's still certainly possible, but when someone's firing 4 AC/2s you dont see brass ejecting everywhere do you?

These are my hypothises regarding MWO's ACs. The fluff is a little different for the TT, as shown above.

[PaintedWolf]

They are all cased. Caseless ammunition is actually an alternative ammo type with special rules: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Caseless

As for the shells, the novels describe them as depleted uranium slugs.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 07 March 2014 - 10:37 AM.

[Pezzer]

Ahh, nevermind then. Caseless seems like something that should never be added to the game. It would be a supposedly "rare" type of ammo, but in reality this would mean you would just be paying more money for an upgrade, like DHS >.>

[CarnageINC]

I guess I never looked into what what tech was available for rounds there recently. Caseless ammo is quite common in today's US and NATO Armies. All 120mm main gun rounds are caseless. It blows my mind that this 'tech' was developed in 3055.

[Damocles]

CarnageINC, on 07 March 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

I guess I never looked into what what tech was available for rounds there recently. Caseless ammo is quite common in today's US and NATO Armies. All 120mm main gun rounds are caseless. It blows my mind that this 'tech' was developed in 3055.

It's fiction, first of all. And It was written in the 80s if you need some sort of perspective on it.

[CyclonerM]

CarnageINC, on 07 March 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

It blows my mind that this 'tech' was developed in 3055.

Actually BT autocannons have been developed around 2300-2700 i believe, if this thought gives more confort to your mind

[Nebfer]

CarnageINC, on 07 March 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

I guess I never looked into what what tech was available for rounds there recently. Caseless ammo is quite common in today's US and NATO Armies. All 120mm main gun rounds are caseless. It blows my mind that this 'tech' was developed in 3055.

Modern 120mm rounds are not caseless, they use a combustible cartridge case (made from a different materiel than the propellant), with a small metallic stub that is ejected. Caseless ammo is effectively an exposed lump of propellant with nothing holding it in.
Edit: I suppose one could say it's a semi caseless round, thought thats pushing the terminology a bit.

-----------------------------------------
As for what Kind of ammo B-tech uses, the fluff is a bit vague, using HEAP for the most part, but not exactly describing what that is, and the novels often add a Depleted uranium element

However I suspect that B-tech standard autocannon ammo is some what related to modern HEIAP Ammo, just with out the incendiary element, and the use of DU for the penitrator element instead of Tungsten Carbide.


Here's what Era Report 2750 mentions on Autocannons

Quote

Autocannons were the logical evolution of the primary weapons
found on the combat vehicles of Terra’s twentieth and twentyfirst
century. While maintaining the same essential principles
behind the original ballistic cannon, the autocannon boasted an
increased rate of fire made possible by more efficient firing mechanisms,
improved metallurgy, lightweight munitions casings and
a higher-velocity propellant. Together, these refinements made it
possible to fire bursts of anti-armor rounds into a target far faster
and more accurately than ever.

Compared to modern weapons B-tech weapons have higher rates of fire (obvious), more accurate, seem to have higher velocity's, lighter ammo and improved metallurgy.

An extract on LBX ACs

Quote

With the continued spread of BattleMech technology, and
the crucible of the Reunification War, Star League researchers on
Terra began development on new autocannon technology in 2595
with the LB 10-X autocannon under the project name CROATOAN.
A highly advanced weapon system, the LB-X could switch between
ammunition like standard autocannon rounds or fire a shotgun
style round that would split into hundreds of explosive sub-munitions.

Basically I believe LBX cluster rounds are more of a proximity round that detonates it's payload in front of the target rather than being a true shotgun, in this aspect its more like modern AA ammo such as AHEAD

The Ultra Autocannon

Quote

Another later direction of the Star League’s autocannon
research was an increase in the already-high rate of fire found in
most models of autocannon. Material engineers began to test
refined aluminum being produced at orbital factories for use
in structural members of large orbital habitats, WarShips, and
space-based mega-engineering projects. An extremely lightweight
combination of aluminum alloys and foamed titanium made the
round lighter, and thus gave it a higher muzzle velocity. One further
refinement used a highly magnetic iron-based material in the case
of the round itself, which allowed a magnetic loading mechanism
to force rounds into the firing chamber faster than normal mechanical
loading techniques... ...Under sustained
rapid fire, the magnetic firing mechanisms would start to suffer
thermal expansion and fuse a round into the firing chamber, locking
up the weapon.

The use of Aluminum and foamed Titanium would make these rounds very very light weight, for example a WW2 era 75mm AT round would weigh around 7kg, using the elements discribed here the round would weight around 1 to 2kg or so.
Also the explanation for jamming is diffrent here than in most other sources, that being a arming failure.


Tech manuals basic text on Autocannons

Quote

For what amounts to one of the most basic combat systems on
the modern battlefield, autocannons (often abbreviated as ACs) are
a broadly varied class of rapid-firing, auto-loading, heavy ballistic
weaponry—gigantic machine guns, in other words. With calibers
ranging from 30 to 90 millimeters at the lighter end, to as much as 203
millimeters or more at the heaviest, most autocannons deliver their
damage by fi ring high-speed streams or bursts of high-explosive,
armor-defeating shells through one or more barrels. While caliber
and fi ring rate can vary greatly, four main classes have emerged over
the centuries, setting the standards by which all other ACs are rated,
based on their relative ballistic damage.

Tech manuals LBX entry

Quote

An improvement on the common autocannon intended to expand
the weapon’s role into anti-vehicle and anti-infantry work, the LB-X
makes use of light, heat-dissipating alloys to reduce its weight and
thermal buildup. These materials, coupled with a smooth-bore,
multi-munition feed mechanism, make the LB more expensive than
standard autocannons. However, the slight range increase and the
ability to switch between standard-style bursts and explosive cluster
munitions—both specially developed for this weapon system—more
than mitigate this higher cost.

Tech manuals Ultra ACs

Quote

The advanced Ultra autocannon system (UAC for short) was fi rst developed
at the height of the original Star League by Kawabata Weapons, Inc. of
the Terran Hegemony. Capable of higher sustained rates of fi re than standard
or LB-X autocannons, Ultra ACs could dish out twice the punishment in the
same amount of time. Unfortunately, these weapons are prone to occasional
misfi res and arming failures when pushing their maximum fi re rates—a factor
that forced many UACs into early retirement after the fall of the original Star
League. Nevertheless, the Clans (and the Inner Sphere, after encountering
the Clans) found enough merit in Ultra ACs to expand the concept across all
the same grades as standard-model autocannons. Even though they cannot
use special munitions (their own magazines are tailored to the high-speed
firing modes, which can be dangerous or detrimental to most specialty
ammo), these weapons remain popular for attack and assault units.

Tech manuals Ammo

Quote

The Clans have yet to field any specialized autocannon munitions in
combat, save for LB-X cluster munitions. The reasons why are unclear,
but engineers have considered the lack of standard-style ACs in the Clan
arsenal as one possible reason, coupled with the usage of different alloys
and propellants than those of Spheroid autocannons that render such
specialty ammo more a liability than a boon.
Armor-Piercing Ammunition: First prototyped by the FedSuns in 3053
and reaching standard production by 3059, armor-piercing (AP) ammo uses
advanced ballistic materials and improved anti-armor warheads to deliver
a punch hard enough to damage internal systems through otherwise fresh
armor. Available solely to standard AC types, the drawback to this greater
punch is the fact that the increased weight of this ammo impairs its fi ring
accuracy and the number of rounds that can be loaded into a given bin.
Flechette Ammunition: Developed by the FedSuns in 3055 for standard
ACs, flechette munitions deliver a shotgun-like blast of metal shards
rather than a stream of shells. Intended for use against infantry, flechette
rounds can wipe out entire platoons of conventional troops in seconds
and can even ravage battle-armored squads, but this ammo type loses
eff ectiveness against armored targets such as vehicles and ‘Mechs.
Precision Ammunition: The most sophisticated of the advanced munitions
for standard ACs, precision ammo was developed in 3062. This ammo
type uses specialized gyrojet shells that incorporate advanced targeting
circuitry, enabling them to auto-correct their aim while in flight. Highly
expensive and heavy to boot, use of precision ammo—particularly in the
higher calibers—can leave an attacker empty in surprisingly short order.
LB-X Cluster Ammunition: Cluster munitions for the LB-X AC series
debuted, went extinct and were recovered at the same time as the LB-X class
of ACs themselves. These munitions may only be used by LB-X class autocannons
and do not benefit from targeting computer assistance because of
their scattershot nature, but are effective against nearly all battlefield units,
particularly vehicles and aircraft.

Edited by Nebfer, 07 March 2014 - 03:26 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

Nebfer, on 07 March 2014 - 03:25 PM, said:

An extract on LBX ACs

Quote

With the continued spread of BattleMech technology, and the crucible of the Reunification War, Star League researchers on Terra began development on new autocannon technology in 2595 with the LB 10-X autocannon under the project name CROATOAN.
A highly advanced weapon system, the LB-X could switch between ammunition like standard autocannon rounds or fire a shotgun style round that would split into hundreds of explosive sub-munitions.

Basically I believe LBX cluster rounds are more of a proximity round that detonates it's payload in front of the target rather than being a true shotgun, in this aspect its more like modern AA ammo such as AHEAD

However, ER:2750 is evidently but one of many sources that indicate, over and over again, that LB-X cluster rounds behave like real-world Canister Shot (such as the M1028 canister round used by the M1 Abrams), Grapeshot, and shotshells (that is, they fragment at muzzle exit).

BattleTech has weaponry that behaves like a proximity-detonated Shrapnel shell (that is, a shell that "carried a large number of individual bullets close to the target and then ejected them to allow them to continue along the shell's trajectory and strike the target individually"), which is what the AHEAD shell is based upon.

Quote

Phromethius, on 07 February 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

I was going to find a clip of Elysium where Mat Damon has the altered AK-47 with proximity shells and shoots them in slow motion at the robot Officer. When I saw that I was like, HOLY HELL! thats what the LBX should have been all along! But this picture does the same thing too... Still, the movie clip is a nice piece of special effects.

... found it.. SKIP TO 55 seconds:

BattleTech actually has exactly this weapon, in the form of the "Air-Burst Rifle Munitions" for handheld rifles, described on page 20 of Combat Equipment (which was published back in 2005).

"In an effort to increase the lethality of their infantry against unarmored opposition, the FedSuns military has begun testing a special high-tech version of standard explosive rifle munitions that can be programmed to detonate at specific ranges through a mechanism within the ammo clip itself. These air-burst rounds enable snipers to hit targets hiding right around a corner; however, their expense, limited application, complexity, reduced damage potential, and the limited ammo capacity per magazine (due to the presence of the programming mechanisms) make them all but useless in a fluid battle."

Also, the characteristics/behavior of the ABRMs is described thusly:

"Rifles using air-burst munitions receive only half the rounds per clip (rounded up). Loading a new clip of air-burst munitions into a rifle or programming one for a new range setting counts as a Complex Action, at which time the player must announce to the gamemaster the range at which the player intends to program the munitions to pre-detonate (up to the maximum range of the rifle itself). Up to the announced range, the munitions function like standard explosive ammunition, but they automatically detonate once they reach the programmed distance, causing blast damage based on the firing weapon’s normal damage, but at a reduction of 1 AP and 1 damage die and with only one quarter of the normal blast radius. Note that the explosive charges are unstable, so a fumbled Action Check when programming or firing air-burst munitions destroys the weapon using them."

Combat Equipment also includes (on the same page, no less) the "Gauss-Delivered Payload Canister" for man-portable Gauss weaponry (such as the David Light Gauss Rifle).

• "Gauss-Delivered Payload Canisters (GDPC) are essentially hollowed out Gauss slugs for support-grade, man-portable Gauss weapons, filled with the desired chemical payload and some explosives to crack the shell and disperse it. GDPCs may be impact or time-delay triggered, and the gunner can select which method is used when he discharges the weapon."
  
• "GDPC’s deploy their payload depending on the setting of their fuse. If set to impact, the payload will deploy when the canister strikes an object, be it the target or ground. The proximity setting detonates a split-second before impact. This setting can be pre-programmed, but more commonly the operator manually sets the range before launch, counting the setting time as a Simple Action. This is usually accomplished by setting how many meters away from the weapon the GDPC will detonate."

However, the LB-X ACs in BattleTech do not behave like either of these weapons - their behavior is modeled after that of canister rounds like the 120mm M1028 Canister used by the M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank (which "discharges [a] massive blast of fragments at muzzle exit") and the grapeshot from which it is descended (and which also "broke up when the gun was fired, spread out in flight like a shotgun charge, and sprayed the target area")... or like the shotshells that are descended from both & to which the LB-X ACs are often & repeatedly compared by various BattleTech rulebooks and novels.

"In addition to firing the standard Dual-Purpose Armor-Defeating Rounds, the weapon may also fire a special Cluster Round that acts much like an anti-'Mech shotgun. After being fired, the round breaks up into several smaller submunitions. This improves the chance of striking a critical location on the target, but also reduces the overall damage done and spreads it out over the entire target area rather than concentrating it in one location." - TRO 2750 (the first book in which the LB-X is introduced to the BattleTech universe), pg. 08
(Identical wording is also used in the original Classic BattleTech Master Rules, the Revised CBTMR, and the original TRO 3050.)

"Natasha's laugh survived computer modulation intact. "Of course. Would you prefer that they use a strategy that makes them comfortable or uncomfortable?"
"Point taken. This LBX autocannon has Cluster loads."
"Shotgun shells. It'll sand all the armor off a foe. Once you've softened him up, your lasers ought to cut him to ribbons."
Phelan nodded to himself and studied the auxiliary monitor. "Gauss rifle in my left arm?"
"Great weapon. It uses magnetic currents to launch a ball of ferrous metal about the diameter of a melon. Generates next to no heat and packs one hell of a wallop. The only problem is that its power requirements are fairly heavy. If you try to shoot it and the lasers at the same time, the computer will have to cycle and allocate power, so it will take a bit longer to get your salvo off."" - Natasha Kerensky & Phelan Kell, Blood Legacy, chapter 19

"Shunting plasma flow from the fusion engine into his jump jet reaction chambers, Doles guided the Emperor into a ninety-meter spinning flight that landed him directly behind the Marauder. Realizing his error the Periphery warrior tried to turn into the attack, but too late. Lasers flared ruby energy into its already-weakened rear torso and sides, evaporating any remaining armor it might have claimed and then carving deep into internal support structure. The autocannon hammered its shotgun-like ammunition into the breaches, each fragmenting piece ricocheting deeper than the one before in search of critical components." - battle between Colonel Warner Doles' Emperor (firing a LB 10-X) and a Taurian Concordat Marauder, The Killing Fields, chapter 36

"As he ran, Jake saw Petra bring her Stormcrow forward and to the right, closing in on the second Avatar to bring her autocannon into play. Her opponent took a few steps back and launched a double-salvo of LRMs from its shoulders, following it up with a shotgun-like blast from its right-arm autocannon. Her speed made her a difficult enough target that the cannon shot went wide, but her Stormcrow weathered a spread of twenty long-range missiles before she raised her 'Mech's left arm and let rip with the autocannon." - battle between MechWarrior Petra's Ryoken B and a DCMS Avatar Prime firing a LB 10-X, Test of Vengeance, chapter 13

As such, PGI's "shotgun-esque" implementation of the LB-X cluster rounds is in fact "correct" in that it is true to the descriptions and portrayal of the weapon's descriptions & portrayals in the source material, and reimplementing them as proximity- or timer-detonated Shrapnel shells would be antithetical to that the LB-X is supposed to be.

That being said, the LB-X AC in MWO remains an incomplete weapon system so long as it is unable to make use of the "slug" munitions (which were actually explosive shells rather than true slugs (which, by definition, carry no payload/warhead); the "slug" designation was very likely selected to reference shotgun slugs and further emphasize the role of the LB-X as "anti-BattleMech shotgun") that served as its alternate firing mode.

If BattleTech had intended to have the LB-X cluster rounds operate in a similar manner, they would have been described thusly (as they are evidently capable of doing, given the existence of the ABRMs in BattleTech) rather than still being described as "anti-battleMech shotguns" firing "shotgun style round(s)".

That the LB-X ACs have been consistently (and in substantial detail) described as behaving like shotguns for over two decades at this point, is a strong indicator that this is so specifically because they are supposed to behave like shotguns firing shotshells (or like modern MBT cannons firing modern canister rounds - as demonstrated by the M1028, it's the same behavior).

[Nebfer]

Strum Wealh, on 08 March 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:

However, ER:2750 is evidently but one of many sources that indicate, over and over again, that LB-X cluster rounds behave like real-world Canister Shot (such as the M1028 canister round used by the M1 Abrams), Grapeshot, and shotshells (that is, they fragment at muzzle exit).

BattleTech has weaponry that behaves like a proximity-detonated Shrapnel shell (that is, a shell that "carried a large number of individual bullets close to the target and then ejected them to allow them to continue along the shell's trajectory and strike the target individually"), which is what the AHEAD shell is based upon.
If BattleTech had intended to have the LB-X cluster rounds operate in a similar manner, they would have been described thusly (as they are evidently capable of doing, given the existence of the ABRMs in BattleTech) rather than still being described as "anti-battleMech shotguns" firing "shotgun style round(s)".

That the LB-X ACs have been consistently (and in substantial detail) described as behaving like shotguns for over two decades at this point, is a strong indicator that this is so specifically because they are supposed to behave like shotguns firing shotshells (or like modern MBT cannons firing modern canister rounds - as demonstrated by the M1028, it's the same behavior).

Problem with this, in game they do not behave like shot guns at all, the clan HAGS behave more like Shotguns than LBX cluster rounds, as the Cluster rounds have an equal chance for their sub projectiles to hit at 1 hex as at 100 hexes.

Real life shot guns and canister will disperse the further they travel and less sub projectiles will hit, this is not the case with LBXs (also note LBX submunitions are explosive).

Also note Airbursting rifle munitions when it was written into B-tech existence (in Combat Equipment) almost all the novels where written long before, and said rounds only became common in the last few years any way. So their not going to be described as Air burst rounds as the idea was not well known or done when most B-tech novels where being written.

[Strum Wealh]

Nebfer, on 08 March 2014 - 10:30 PM, said:

Problem with this, in game they do not behave like shot guns at all, the clan HAGS behave more like Shotguns than LBX cluster rounds, as the Cluster rounds have an equal chance for their sub projectiles to hit at 1 hex as at 100 hexes.

Real life shot guns and canister will disperse the further they travel and less sub projectiles will hit, this is not the case with LBXs (also note LBX submunitions are explosive).

Also note Airbursting rifle munitions when it was written into B-tech existence (in Combat Equipment) almost all the novels where written long before, and said rounds only became common in the last few years any way. So their not going to be described as Air burst rounds as the idea was not well known or done when most B-tech novels where being written.

The HAGs are, by all descriptions, volley guns - essentially, Gauss-tech versions of weapons like the Mitrailleuse, the Meroka CWIS used by the Spanish Navy, or the MetalStorm 36-barrel gun system - and behave as such (including being able to control/vary the number of barrels fired, and having to account for downrange spread of the slugs; of note is that the barrels of the Meroka CIWS "are purposely skewed in order to expand the impact area").

Real-world shotguns can control the degree of spread over distance through the use of a choke system, with variable-setting chokes having been in real-world use for the better part of a century; the LB-X ACs having servo-driven adjustable chokes slaved to the 'Mech's targeting system (such that it can be set to "fully-open" when firing normal rounds, and set to optimize spread as a function of range-to-target & target size when firing cluster rounds) is a plausible explanation that (unlike the proximity-detonation proposal) also maintains the long-established character of the LB-X as "an anti-BattleMech shotgun".

[SaltBeef]

I figure in real life if man makes it that far and is still blowing each other to bits.... they would be Gatling guass or guass ( railgun) from 2mm to 250 mm all auto-cannon. Missiles would be hypersonic and phasing. Lasers would be plasma balls of EMP combined death. The robot automatons would be 100% human less terminators. 2Cents. But depleted uranium is good hard material for 80's battletech.

Edited by SaltBeef, 09 March 2014 - 08:53 AM.

[Madw0lf]

Thanks guys! Between Sarnas description and the books fluff about DU I wasnt sure.

[Spokes]

CarnageINC, on 07 March 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

I guess I never looked into what what tech was available for rounds there recently. Caseless ammo is quite common in today's US and NATO Armies. All 120mm main gun rounds are caseless. It blows my mind that this 'tech' was developed in 3055.

Another thing to think about is that most BattleMech equipment/weaponry/ammunition is designed to function in a much greater range of environments than most current "state-of-the-art" weapons. A BattleTech autocannon might be asked to fire on Earth one day, the moon the next, and then on to Titan by way of Mars, all with nothing more than a software update.

[Strum Wealh]

A rundown on the alternate AC munition types:

• Armor-Piercing: increased likelihood of "through-armor critical hits", but half (round down) of the number of rounds per ton; otherwise identical to Standard/HEAP ammo (TechManual, pg. 208; TotWar, pg. 141)
  
• Caseless: 2x ammo per ton; otherwise identical to Standard/HEAP ammo (TacOps, pg. 352)
  
• Flak: proximity-detonated Shrapnel shell, delivers 0.5x damage against 'Mechs and full damage against infantry and airborne aircraft; otherwise identical to Standard/HEAP ammo (TacOps, pg. 352)
  
• Flechette: delivers "a shotgun-like blast of metal shards", with 2x damage against infantry and 0.5x damage against 'Mechs and vehicles; otherwise identical to Standard/HEAP ammo (TechManual, pg. 208; TotWar, pg. 141)
  
• Incendiary: 2 additional units of damage against unarmored infantry, can start fires in the environment, explodes in AC barrel if the weapon takes a critical hit; otherwise identical to Standard/HEAP ammo (CBT Master Rules, pg. 133)
  
• Precision: "uses specialized gyrojet shells that incorporate advanced targeting circuitry, enabling them to auto-correct their aim while in flight", allowing for limited in-flight guidance but with half (round down) of the number of rounds per ton; otherwise identical to Standard/HEAP ammo (TechManual, pg. 208; TotWar, pg. 142)
  
• Tracer: inflicts 1 less unit of damage than Standard/HEAP ammo, but is otherwise identical (TacOps, pg. 353)

The "standard" AC munition is a "high-explosive armor-piercing" (HEAP) shell (also known as an "armor-piercing, high-explosive" (APHE) shell).

What would be canonically available at MWO's in-universe "present" (that is, circa 3051) are: Standard (HEAP), Flak, Incendiary, and Tracer rounds.

• Armor-piercing (AP) munitions (as distinct from the "standard" (HEAP) munitions) were prototyped by the FedSuns in 3053, and went into production in 3059.
  
• Caseless munitions were put into production by the FedSuns in 3055.
  
• Flechette munitions were put into production by the FedSuns in 3055.
  
• Precision munitions were put into production by the FedSuns in 3062.

The LB-X ACs (which can fire either a HEAP-type "standard" shell or a shotshell-like cluster round, but cannot make use of the munition types available to standard ACs) are explicitly stated to be smoothbore weapons (TechManual, pg. 207), as are the AC/2s mounted on the Mauler (Close Quarters by Victor Milan, ch. 35). Unless otherwise specified, we can assume that most AC models are smoothbore weapons rather than rifled.